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/sci/ - Science & Math


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6793227 No.6793227 [Reply] [Original]

It's pretty much confirmed that Engineers are the unsaid alphas of all the STEM fields, right?

Engineers are pretty much Renaissance men/Polymaths and are often the most multi-talented individuals.

>> No.6793233

Scientists study the world as it is; engineers create the world that has never been. Nuff said

>> No.6793240

>>6793227
>engineering students
>renaissance men
as an engineer, I cannot defend this opinion. We have a very niche subject matter that we have an in depth knowledge about.

>> No.6793243

Engineers are just homosexuals that wants to get together

>> No.6793244

>>6793240
>niche subject matter
>need to be talented at mathematics, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, electromagnetism, working with teams, problem solving, practiced safety and pinpoint accuracy so your building and planes dont kill people
>niche

Look at some CPSC java nerd or a physics nerd. They need or are at max 1 or 2 of those things.

>> No.6793248

>>6793240
that's literally the opposite of the truth. engineers have a very broad spectrum of knowledge

>> No.6793250

>>6793227

medfag here, agree 100%

>> No.6793252

>>6793227
Engineers are literally the most boorish people on campus, especially civil & structural.

Seriously, the amount of times an engineering student has (completely unsolicited) boasted to me about their expected starting wage, the sample size is going beyond anecdotal.

>> No.6793256

>>6793252
Electrical and civil engineers are not being considered in this thread. We're talkin bout' the multi talented chem/aero/mech/engphys engies.

pipeline layers be gone. you niggers are just construction workers with calculators

>> No.6793258

>>6793252
>i talked to a few frosh/soph engrs in the shittiest specializations and they were pricks
they wont be around long enough to graduate, talk to some real engrs and stop spewing stereotypes after listening to a few dickheads

>> No.6793276

>>6793256
>aero
they don't even know why airplanes fly

>> No.6793278

Chemical engineering: turn raw materials into usable materials

Aeronautical engineering: manipulate flight technology

Mechanical engineering: design and manufacturing of machinery

Civil engineering: design roads, bridges, etc.

every one of those are mutually exclusive. A chemical engineer cannot do a aeronautical engineer's work and vice versa

If you have one of those degrees, you are not multi talented. You have a niche talent.

Being multi talented implies you are inherently creative. Engineering does not foster creativity.

It's hilarious that the responses (or retort) to this post >>6793252
are people are who boasting about engineering

>> No.6793282

>>6793278
>mechanical engineering
>design and manufacturing of machinery
oh my insides

Tell me, why are are 85%+ of astronauts engineers? An astronaut is the most multi-talented, competent, alpha male position any one person can have. Tell me, why are almost all of them engineers?

Oh yeah that's right


Cause engineers are alpha fucking shit.

>> No.6793284
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6793284

why are some engineering so proud?

le 300K staring salary XD people who are non STEM shouldn't go to college

It does the opposite of the intention. It does not flatter anyone but rather exposes your numerous inadequacies.

>> No.6793287

>>6793278
>engineering does not foster creativity
Wow, you're stupid.

I'm good at just about everything btw, I was an AP art student in high school, am a classically trained pianist, and have won awards for my writing.

I went into STEM because it's stable and pays well.
>>6793284
Looks like a CS student to me.

>> No.6793288

>>6793227
All engineers I know are normal persons.

>> No.6793289

>>6793284
This just makes the real alpha engineers shine even brighter, because they're so distinct from the smelly indian aspie nerds that talk about salary.

My bf is a mech engineer. He's the best man I've ever known. He's so fucking good at everything. Even in bed.

>> No.6793294

>>6793278
spoken by someone who truly has no idea what engineers do and is probably a NEET, nukes and chemEs can easily do an ME job, civil job, some areo jobs as well. engineering degrees teach you how to resolve problems down to first principles and come up with solutions using knowledge of the fundamental nature of how the world works

>> No.6793295

>>6793244
Pauca sed matura

>> No.6793297

>>6793227
Env. Sci. here.

I walked the fuck out of an engineering course because the professor was such a smug prick.

"Oh, we make 100K a year, easy! Unlike those other STEM majors..."

Some of us don't care about money beyond what we need to live comfortably. It was incredibly off-putting to all of us who weren't engineer majors.

>> No.6793301

>>6793282
"Mechanical engineering is the discipline that applies the principles of engineering, physics and materials science for the design, analysis, manufacturing, and maintenance of mechanical systems. It is the branch of engineering that involves the design, production, and operation of machinery and tools.[1][2] It is one of the oldest and broadest of the engineering disciplines."

You are obviously immature. Alpha male dynamics is part of sociology, something that might be the polar opposite of engineering.

I also think you're confusing the term as well. The prestige of an astronaut can go unmatched but that does not mean you are inherently an alpha male.

>> No.6793305

>>6793289
>real alpha engineers...because they're so distinct
meaning they're rare?

did you not understand the point of the thread?

>> No.6793307

>>6793301
there is now 100% no doubt in my mind that you are NEET as fuck and have no idea what you're talking about and are just throwing your insecurities at your own failures onto more successful people because you can't cope with the fact that they made it and you didn't. grow the fuck up m8. if you were good enough to go into engineering you'd realize how based it is and why so many people want to do it/why they get paid so much. engineers literally make everything in the world that didn't already exist in nature

>> No.6793310

>>6793301
Engineering is just the most alpha STEM field. That's what it boils down to. Deal with it.

>> No.6793311

>>6793287
Thanks for your rare and fringe case anecdotal report. I'll paint every engineer as creative. The general consensus is that creativity is not a requirement for engineering.

Am I the only one who recognizes the double think in this thread?

I talk about the pride of engineering students and then they list off their accomplishments or worse, things they haven't yet accomplished.

>> No.6793313

>>6793307
So, are you guys putting carpenters and construction workers out of business soon?

Anyone who has to boast about their STEM field being 'alpha as fuck' is an insecure moron anyways. I see so many people quit out of the engineering program because of all this bravado.

>> No.6793314

>>6793311
>The general consensus is that creativity is not a requirement for engineering.
How isn't it a requirement? Creativity is needed to solve real life problems

>> No.6793316

>>6793314
Just like everything in life, there's plenty of engineers who went into it just for the money. And it shows.

>> No.6793318

>>6793316
they aren't making money if they can't work you fucking dork.

>> No.6793320

>>6793316
>>6793316
yes, lots do go into it juts for money or bravado. But that is besides the fact that when it comes down to it, the best men in the world are engineers

>> No.6793323

>>6793310
this. what's more alpha that getting atoms so hot they ionize and smash into each other so hard they fuse together

>> No.6793325

>>6793318
If you think there aren't engineers out there who got through the program thanks to daddy's trust fund and connections to companies, I have another thing coming for you, bud.

Your field is not infallible.

>>6793320
>the best men in the world

Cool absolutes, bro. The best men get into fields they love and are good at. A fulfilled and talented writer is a greater asset to society than some smug engineer who only got into his field for the profit and is borderline average at it.

>> No.6793326

>>6793325
you get dropped from uni if your grades aren't high enough, bud

>> No.6793327

>>6793323
like what i do to ur mum
WHOAAAH!!!~
>>6793325
Worthless engineers get fired every day, one over here got fired Thursday because he wasn't doing anything. He was only here for a week.

>> No.6793331

>>6793326
'Bud', I'm in college. If you think higher education can't be bought, like everything else in life, you're wrong. I see tons of rich kids here get chance after chance despite abysmal grades because son of alumni or spawn of rich donor.

>>6793327
It doesn't change the fact that the majority of engineering majors I've met are smug pricks. Tell me, is it a thing that gets developed early in the program, or am I missing something here?

>> No.6793335

>>6793307
Again, I'm in my senior year for electrical engineer.

I'll have to give you the point on recognizing my frustrations.

My department is full of people who have a false sense of superiority. There is a sizable amount of students who honestly believe they are better than others based on their degree.

They are often difficult to work with and because of their delusional confidence lack necessary courtesy and social skills.

They claim their superior intellect yet lack basic morals. They are often underdeveloped in many areas. Some can't communicate without spouting memes or reacting by emulating reaction gifs.

This is all fueled by the idea presented in this thread

>> No.6793337

>>6793325
>he's denying that astronauts are the best people in the world
just research for 5 mins what kinds of people become astronauts

actually, let me link you a couple of wiki pages of your "average" astronaut

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Saint-Jacques
>Did engineering physics as an undergrad, the hardest engineering discipline
>worked as engineer for a few years
>got bored and became a pilot
>fly planes for a few years
>got bored, went to cambridge and got phd in astrophysics
>studied the heavens for a few years
>got bored and become a medical doctor
>then got bored and became an astronaut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Pesquet
>finished his masters degree at 22
>speaks 6 languages
>is also an aquanaut

>> No.6793338

>>6793307
>sucking your own dick this hard
Soooooooo many people want to become engineers because you can be a complete fucking moron and make decent money. You don't have to be exceptional at any aspect of math or science, just lower div knowledge required. Your entire life is going to be centered around designing a bunch of shit no one will EVER care about and never having any deep insight into the babby tier math, physics, or chemistry that you utilize for that useless product. People don't want to be engineers because they want to be "based." People want to be engineers because they realize that they are never going to contribute anything of value with their mediocre talents. Some engineers are cool. All the undergrad eng fags in this thread are money hungry downs syndrome fuck ups.

>> No.6793339

>>6793331
>majors
Students don't count fuccboi

>> No.6793341

>>6793337
>engineering physics
>the hardest engineering discipline

>> No.6793343

>>6793341
>implying untrue statement

>> No.6793344

>>6793338
this is bait

>> No.6793346

>>6793335
>>6793337 over here is proving your point pretty well. Likewise, the STEM department at my university is full of these antisocial, smug pricks.

Meanwhile, I'm bilingual going on trilingual, an excellent writer, have decent social skills AND am going into my field not for the prestige but because I genuinely love it.

I feel sorry for these smug pricks, because life is going to hit them fucking hard once they're out of their circlejerks.

>> No.6793347

>>6793244
>1 or 2
>Gee i sure wish i could get my PhD with just knowledge of mathematics and electromagnetism.
> It's not like thermodynamics or fluid dynamics are part of physics.
>All scientific papers haves single authorship
>Einstein never labored to make a general case for relativity
> CERN didn't need 5 sigma demonstrate they the found the higgs
> physicist would never need to now how valence electrons act
I took the b8

>> No.6793348

>>6793307
Yeah bro that 80k a year sure is something compared to a surgeon's 400 lmao

>> No.6793350
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6793350

>>6793252
You like my shirt?

>> No.6793351

>>6793348
>surgeons go to school twice as long and go through residencies and all that other shit and there is a much smaller percentage of initial frosh students that actually become surgeons compared to engineers
>retards into logic
>implying I'm a basic ass ME
i'm big pimping on some nxtlvl shit m8

>> No.6793353

>>6793348
Honestly, no one needs 400K a year to live. It's a ridiculous amount of money.

>> No.6793354

>>6793350
oh hey bro, you go to ubc?

im trying to get into mech for next year

what is the stigma around engineers over at ubc?

>> No.6793362

>>6793346
>excellent writer
Sure you are, champ

>> No.6793363
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6793363

>>6793350

>> No.6793364

>>6793362
Considering I just got a job at the writing center based on an essay I hated the fuck out of, yeah.

>> No.6793365

>>6793346
>engineers don't like what they do
>so fucking insecure about yourself and your abilities and your life choices that you berate people on theirs
fucking pathetic m8, get your life together

>> No.6793366

>>6793353
>brags about money
>says 'n-n-nobody needs that much money' when it's brought up someone makes more
lmaoooooooooo

>> No.6793369

>>6793364
>job at the writing cente
whoah, you'll have that nobel prize in no time

>> No.6793371

>>6793351
And yet they still make more and are seen as smarter, rightfully so, than engineers m8 :^)

>> No.6793374

All I want to do is work on machines and build things while making enough to support a family. Why do you spergs try to ruin everything?

>> No.6793375

>>6793374
that's not what engineers do anyway

>> No.6793376

>>6793364
WOAH a job at the writing center?

How is it like helping freshmen writing their papers?

>> No.6793377

>>6793374
Why do you spergs have a superiority complex?

>> No.6793379

>>6793377
you have an inferiority complex

>> No.6793380

>>6793379
Ebin cumbak

>> No.6793382

>>6793366
Not the same person, retard.

>> No.6793384

>>6793374
Because many engineers are faggots , who wan't something to boast about other than cock sucking. So you usually hear "MUH SALARY" spouted ad nausem , so they can feel like a special snkowflake

>> No.6793385

>>6793376
Pretty based considering it's easy as fuck and cuts my tuition down :^)

>> No.6793387

>>6793385
you'd do much better working at fucking starbucks you faggot

>> No.6793388

>>6793387
Starbucks wouldn't cover half my tuition and save me on gas, moron.

>> No.6793393

>>6793388
>doesnt have a starbucks on campus
>it doesn't pay $12/hr
>it doesn't give full health and dental benefits
lel what shitty uni you go to. all you have to do is put up with whiney white sluts and hipster faggots and you're rolling in beer money

>> No.6793398

>>6793354
>stigma around engineers over at ubc?
We've still got a reputation from back in the day of being a bunch of binge drinking prank loving frat bros, but IRL the majority of UBC engineers are asians who's parents lock them in a room to study every night. You'll get high fives and girl attention if you buy a red jacket and wear it to a bar downtown, but the actual engineering parties on campus are pretty lame.

>> No.6793401

>>6793374
You're alright. You're the type of person I would have a beer with.

The one's who have the "DON'T TOUCH ME YOU FILTHY POLISCI CASUAL" attitude are the ones I have a problem with.

>> No.6793402

>>6793375
I'm going for Industrial Engineering and Management, so yeah, that is what I do. I might go more for Manufacturing Engineering, actually, but I'll get there either away.

>> No.6793406

>>6793350
graduated from ubc

the engineers club was basically the place to go if you were a total fuckwad socially inept doorknob.

you kids and your "cheez" were fuckign disgusting human beings. glad im out of that place; I hated seeing your kind

>> No.6793411

>>6793388
What about that writing award? You made it seem like it was something to brag about on a cambodian image board.

Was it an award for involvement? Is that what you're bragging about?

If you were so successful before college, why are you worried about money? Did you miss the scholarship deadlines, or did you not receive one?

>> No.6793412
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6793412

>>6793227
>he's a engineer
>on the internet
>on an anime imageboard
>he boasts for free
>he takes his field very seriously
>he does it because it is the only instance of achievement he will ever have in his life
>he constantly shitposts about his salary
>he ignores posts he doesn't like because they interfere with the large backlog of little dicks he still has to suck
>he will never be a real scientist
>he will never do any math that is beyond baby tier
>he will never actually build anything worthwhile
>he will never know how to build anything besides a motorized dildo to fit up his ass
>he will never have a girlfriend
>he will never have any friends

>> No.6793414

>>6793406
That's what you get for going to school in Canada

>> No.6793416
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6793416

>>6793412
>not being a swag ass engineer

>> No.6793421
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6793421

>>6793416
>swag

>> No.6793422

>>6793416
Sausage instability can be stabilized by your mom

Nice handwriting though

>> No.6793423

>>6793422
my professor's handwriting

>> No.6793435

>>6793388
>writing center job pays for half of tuition
community college detected

>> No.6793436

>>6793412
el em ayy ohh fucking rekt :^)

>> No.6793439

>>6793416
That's some lovely babby tier E&M you got there. Have fun not even being remotely intelligent enough to be a scientist.

>> No.6793445

>>6793439
>grad level fusion course

>> No.6793447
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6793447

>>6793445
sure anon what ever you say

>> No.6793449

Where the fuck am I right now? Engineering is being lauded on /sci/? All of you are just homosexuals.

Math major here, I can do all of the shit you guys do, tell you why it works, and then do some more.

>> No.6793452
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6793452

>>6793447

>> No.6793453

>>6793449
see >>6793412

>> No.6793454

>>6793449
accurately model for me two phase chocked flow through cracks

>> No.6793455

>>6793452
>he isn't taking his university's magnetohydrodynamics course

>> No.6793456

>>6793454
>asking a mathematician to do a physics problem

>> No.6793457

>>6793227
What about Computer Engineers?

>> No.6793459
File: 54 KB, 210x180, total pleb.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793459

>>6793452

>> No.6793460

>>6793252
>the sample size is going beyond anecdotal.

that's the sample size of your school. i majored in civil engineering and no one in my classes talked about money or putting down other majors.

>> No.6793461

>>6793456
It's an engineering problem and he was so ready to say he can do anything

>> No.6793462

>>6793412
>he will never be a real scientist
Nonsense, DaVinci was an engineer, you would be a fool to not also consider him a scientist.
>he will never do any math that is beyond baby tier
Really? Because I also majored in physics, and I'm going back to school to get a Ph.D in mathematics.

I probably only need a semester or two to get a bachelors, I've already learned a fair bit of what is required.
>he will never have a girlfriend
I'm engaged, you're a KV.
>he will never have any friends
Projection
>>6793449
So can I, babby.

Sophomore pls go.

>> No.6793464

>>6793278
nigga please. i majored in civil engineering and im working on mechanical and aerospace projects.

>> No.6793465

>>6793462
>b-but anon I just reheated that pasta

>> No.6793466

Math major here. A "polymath" is someone who has become an expert in many different fields. The key word is "expert". Engineers only know basic calculus and high school physics, and probably don't even know linear algebra.

>> No.6793467

>>6793466
>being NEET
Yet another dickhead that doesn't know what entineers do but proceeds to talk shit

>> No.6793468
File: 106 KB, 350x319, delicious.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793468

>>6793461
>imblying fluid dynamics aren't physics

>> No.6793471

>>6793466
That's extremely wrong.

>major
You're an 18-year-old child who thinks he's hot shit for knowing how to integrate.

Congrats on doing what I could do at 15 though

>> No.6793472

>>6793467
>look ma i posted it again

>>6793471
>imblying engineer's don't think they're hot shit for knowing how to integrate

>> No.6793473

>>6793472
Freshman kiddies think they're hot shit, half of them will drop out because they can't handle the reality of it all.

Come back when you're at least two years into your community college.

>> No.6793474

>>6793472
No engineers are hot shit for building the whole fucking world. Airplanes the electrical grid rocket propulsion farming equipment sewage systems the transportation system I could keep going if you'd like

>> No.6793475
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6793475

>>6793473
>hurr durr community college

>> No.6793476

>>6793475
I went to the best school for engineering in my country.

>> No.6793478

>>6793461
>doesn't get the joke
>>6793454
>takes me seriously
This is why you engineers are all gay: you try so hard.

>> No.6793480

>>6793476
>bragging on an anonymous chinese cartoon board
Shit was so cash right John?

>> No.6793481

>>6793478
You sort of have to try hard when you have to do on the spot calculations, and work with materials that could kill you.

The real world is scary, you'd know that if you weren't an 18-year-old child who has never experienced the real world

>> No.6793482

>>6793481
>on the spot calculations with a computer

> work with materials that could kill you
join the club

>> No.6793483

>>6793478
Also, I wanted to mention that I did look into your request, and I uncovered a whole bunch of dissertations. I'm unfamiliar with the question, but I'm confident that I can independently come to understand it. The dissertations that I've read so far are pretty straightforward.
Make no mistake, engineers are necessary for the world, as just about every other major is. But you're the epitome of why /sci/ hates engineers.

>>6793481
>he's still trying

>> No.6793487

>>6793483
/sci/ hates engineers because they go beyond muh beautiful theory and muh beautiful equations to actually create things and get paid more than the autists that just sit around thinking about how beatiful his new theory is without applying to to anything meaningful

>> No.6793490

>>6793487
You don't know what mathematicians do, do you?

>> No.6793492

>>6793490
My uncles a mathematician he works with statistics all day

>> No.6793493

>>6793487
>get paid more
>MUH SALARY

>without applying to to anything meaningful
>Faraday's work was useless because it was a physics wank

>> No.6793495

>>6793492
Never mind, you do know, because your uncle is a mathematician and he works with statistics all day.
Do you know how retarded you sound?

>> No.6793496

>>6793495
Differnt guy but how many shekels do you have anon?

>> No.6793497

>>6793496
>MUH SALARY

>> No.6793498

>>6793495
He's got a phd in math and a phd in stats and he works with big data

>> No.6793499

>>6793227
>and are often the most multi-talented individuals.
bizarro world?
engineers are one-trick ponies.

>> No.6793500

>>6793497
>not realizing my use of shekels was a signifying that it was a joke

>> No.6793501

>>6793500
>not realizing that I realized that and made a joke of my own

>> No.6793502

>>6793244
>>need to be talented at mathematics, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, electromagnetism, working with teams, problem solving, practiced safety
so you're pretty much a bad physicist, because they have to be better in every field.

>> No.6793503

>>6793501
>not realizing that I realized that you realized that realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized realized

>> No.6793504

>>6793503
>implying I didn't

>> No.6793506

>>6793502
>physicist
>problem solving

>> No.6793507

>>6793504
imblying we're not the same person

>> No.6793508
File: 2.68 MB, 400x225, implying.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793508

>> No.6793509

>>6793506
>implying various incorrect implications

>> No.6793510

>>6793506
It's pretty much equivalent.

Am I talking to a complete retard?

>> No.6793511

>>6793510
It was a shitposting thread from the beginning , just enjoy the ride.

>> No.6793513

>>6793510
No, you're talking to an engine--oh, wait.

>> No.6793514

>>6793513
Again it's pretty much equivalent.

>> No.6793515

>>6793510
Oh I almsot forgot that physicists can solve any problem by making up imaginary particles. Meanwhile in the real world engineers solve real problems

>> No.6793516

>>6793515
and engineers didn't need to take into account relativity when osetting up the first gps satilites

>> No.6793520

>>6793276
aero student. can confirm

>> No.6793523
File: 1.90 MB, 320x200, 1404699092612.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793523

>>6793227
>Polymaths

>> No.6793525

>>6793523
partly french engineer master race reporting in

>> No.6793527
File: 88 KB, 540x530, 1406689561630,png.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793527

>>6793525
> french
> engineer

you can't be master race if you're either

>> No.6793596

>>6793244
>need to be talented at X, Y which is closely related to X, subset if X, another subset of X, another subset if X, generic qualities people who have fuck all to say write on résumés and could be applied to literally every degree.

>> No.6793613

>>6793520
I read about this, is it actually true? Is it really not known why airplanes fly? Because I totally know why.

>> No.6793622

>>6793596
Nigga u tarded.
If only physics in that list is different from mathematics, why wouldn't chemistry through electromagnetism be fields of physics?

>> No.6793630

engineers are just autists who managed to get a degree

>> No.6793632

>>6793613
>is it actually true?

nah, kid.

>> No.6793639

the word "engineer" comes from latin, and it means "he who applies his ingenuity to create things".

So yeah, we're pretty dope

>> No.6793646

Why is it that engineers have a tendency to believe in hocus pocus stuff?

The amount of engineers I met who believe the most ridiculous irrational bullshit is way to high. It's like they go for engineering on purpose because it's the only STEM that doesn't challenge their bullshit believes.

>> No.6793647

Engineering is obviously just physics on easy mode. No-one can dispute this fact.

>> No.6793648

no love for programmers ;-;

>> No.6793650

>>6793646
like what stuff?

i for one always thought that mathematicians were pretty mystically inclined, on average

>> No.6793651

>>6793622
Nigga you know what a subset is?

>> No.6793653

>>6793647
>implying most physicists can do engineering work

go make me a tv if you can, you "scientist"

>> No.6793654

Why is /sci/ so hateful?
Apparently all majors are shit, except the one which you're studying.
Why do I keep coming here?

>> No.6793655

>>6793466
You're clueless. Linear algebra is stronger than calculus in my engineering school.

>> No.6793661

>>6793651
Yeah, I'm saying if that guy thinks physics is related to maths but independent, that the rest of the things in the list would probably be subsets of physics rather than maths.

>> No.6793665

>>6793414
uft is top 10 for medical
mcgill is like #25 international

>> No.6793673

>>6793227
I thought engineers just make stuff and that people who categorize human males by Greek letters aren't exactly considered to be cool or likable, unless you're 12.

>> No.6793675

>>6793227

the engineering students ive come across, (excluding the humble ones from rural/borderline suburban areas) were smug, self righteous, insufferable egotistic pricks.

i would know, i am an engineering student.

i also did a few courses @ comp sci faculty, and let me tell you.......i'd still pick the engineering crowd over the comp sci demographic any day, words cant even describe.

>> No.6793681

>>6793675
At my school it's bunch of brodudes who drink beer and go to gym all day. Pretty much the most social people i know.

>> No.6793684

>>6793681
>brodudes who drink beer and go to gym all day
That sounds horrible, would an hero

>> No.6793685

>>6793684
nerd

>> No.6793693

>>6793685
The 80s called, they want their easy social categories back. What is this, Porky's?

>> No.6793703

>>6793681

>brodudes who drink beer and go to gym all day

1st years don't count, that's the toe tipping period

Also, what tier is your school?

>> No.6793708
File: 92 KB, 600x900, 1390290141443.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793708

engineers always had ego problems that's for sure. that's why they'll never be alpha essentially. the need to flaunt your alpha is so beta

>> No.6793709

90% of engineers are gay engineers

>> No.6793714

>>6793346
>false sense of superiority
>delusional confidence

>Meanwhile, I'm bilingual going on trilingual, an excellent writer
>I feel sorry for these smug pricks

you should feel sorry for yourself.

Well you'll sure do it in few years.

>> No.6793715

>>6793709
jesus, that means I fucked all the straight ones already. which STEM field should I go for next if I'm a single astrophysics lady?

>> No.6793723

Lel just look how many mathematicians that get into engineering.

>> No.6793733

>>6793227
DUDE LEGO LAMO

>> No.6793736

>>6793723
That's because they get 300k starting

>> No.6793745

>>6793233
>tfw I know what uni you go to, anon-kun.

>> No.6793747

>>6793745
>you know where I go to school based off of one quote
uwotm8

>> No.6793752

>>6793233
You're a fag; nuff said

>> No.6793772

>>6793745
where's that bitch boy go anon? probably some shit uni

>> No.6793795

>>6793703
idk tier, Im in europe and there are only like 3 relevant uni's in my country. Yes it's one of them.

>> No.6793796

>>6793653
>Implying engineers can do plumbing work

Go unclog my toilet if you can, you 'engineer'.

>> No.6793824

>>6793745
where do you think I go to school?

>> No.6793829

>>6793363
>nucleus
>electrons
pick one

>> No.6793831

>>6793829
what the hell are you on about? i dont see anything about electrons or nuclei on that shirt

>> No.6793832

>>6793363
>I DPHINT GIVE A FLUX
b-b-but it's funny because phi looks a bit like an o if you squint and are blind

>> No.6793835

>>6793832
anon you seem upset about something

>> No.6793837

>>6793227
Mathematicians>Physicists>Chemists>Engineers

>> No.6793838

>>6793837
>being autistic
I wonder how you'd be able to jerk off to cartoon porn without that computer that an engineer designed

>> No.6793839

>>6793829
lel wut

>> No.6793847

>>6793829
it's a fucking gay shirt but I'm not really sure what you're trying to say

>> No.6793857

At any social gathering:
Her: what do you do?
You: I'm a mathematician.
Her: That's nice. Excuse me.

Her: what do you do?
You: I'm an engieneer.
Her: Awesome! What are you working on?

>> No.6793858

>>6793227
Don't know about everyone else, but I am.

>> No.6793860

>>6793857
>At any social gathering
>Mathematician
>Engineer

>> No.6793861

>>6793857
/thread

>> No.6793881

At the end of the day, engineering is just an application of what a scientist had discovered years earlier, so in the grand scheme of things they're not really that impressive. Any scientist can be an engineer, most engineers could not be scientists.

Scientists are envious of the salary though, but in the same way engineers are envious of our superior intellect. Dill with it.

>> No.6793885

>>6793824
Elementary school.

>> No.6793886

>>6793414
At least he's not from waterloo
I am though

>> No.6793887

>>6793838
You seem aggravated you cannot grasp more difficult concepts than simple engineering.

>> No.6793894

>>6793887
>simple engineering
>using a wealth of scientific knowledge to manipulate large, complex systems to do whatever you want them to do for you.
lel I'd like to see your precious theoretical physicists conceptualize and design some of the ingenious shit engineers have come up with. the discovery of radioactivity for example was a novel feat and incredible discovery but all the things that engineers have designed to utilize it is as remarkable if not more

>> No.6793908

>>6793857
>Her: Awesome! What are you working on?
Is this your dream anon? That's pathetic.

>> No.6793911

>>6793894
>building things scientists told you to build
>ingenious

>> No.6793913

>>6793911
engineers don't build shit you retard, they design it, because scientists can't

>> No.6793914

I was a tutor for the physics course for engineers at my uni two times and what I noticed is that engineers are defining themselves as a stereotypical engineer much more than other students. I remember one of them saying something like "Listen, when you are at a party, you must not say that you are an engineer! Especially not to girls!", so in a way he identified his lack of success with girls with him being an engineer. I wish I could have told him that he didn't need to tell anyone that he's an engineer, it was pretty clear on first sight.

Anyway, there were some nice guys among them, and some were super annoying, just like everywhere else. The only thing that was especially aggravating were the guys who seriously thought that the babby physics I taught them was even close to what actual physicists do. I overheard some discussions that made pretty clear that they thought that their essence of math, chemistry and physics was in fact the real thing. Of course that's not everyone, but those were the loudest and most annoying students.

Also, I wouldn't call the typical engineer a polymath. A polymath is somebody who can excel in different fields. The guys I knew were basically average in everything at most. Many of them had severe problems with mathematics. Just no intuition at all.

>> No.6793921

>>6793914
you don't tell chicks at parties you're an engineer because there are a lot of scummy sluts that cling to guys that they think will be successful and make a lot of money and try to get pregnant and have them take care of her for the rest of her life. some skummy shit but it seriously happens

>> No.6793926

>>6793921
If they're at university their plans are not going to be "find some rich guy and marry him"

>> No.6793927

>>6793913
No. Most scientists have scale models of whatever it is they're working on. You've never been to a lab, have you? Application based scientists are far and above more important then engineers in the grand scheme of things.

Engineers make the big bucks because they can improve efficiency, scale up, and make a product that can be commercially sold.

>> No.6793930

>>6793926
Haha you'd be surprised
Once a person finds an easy way out, they'd gladly drop out as they do it for the money.

>> No.6793931

>>6793921
What he said went in another direction though. Also I don't really think that this is a serious threat to those guys.

>> No.6793934

There's a reason why everyone here is bashing on engineers

>> No.6793943

>>6793934
Just jelly of their monies, honestly.

I'm a scientist and I know I'll never make bank like an engineer. At the end of the day though I'm more concerned with pushing the envelope then designing it. If I were an engineer I would be incredibly bored with my job, it's not mentally demanding enough.

Perhaps engineers feel the same way about business people? I mean they sit around pushing paper around all day and make more bank then anyone else...

>> No.6793956

Freshies should stop bragging about their future currently non-existent salary, lawyers, doctors and a portion of the business crowd are going to be making more money than you. Scientists aren't innocent either and need to stop complaining/insulting the engineers for lack of dedication/intelligence like they have a chip on their shoulder.

Also, at the undergraduate level a successful science student can easily study the contents of an engineering degree and vice versa provided the student actually gives a fuck about what they're learning, there's really no difference in intellect between them. Hell you share classes for at least a year, in my uni at least.

>> No.6793976
File: 95 KB, 680x608, shearedsheep.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793976

As an engineer I am trying to pursue a double major in mathematics so when people ask me what I study I can just tell them math; that way I am not put in the same box as shitheads like OP

>> No.6793984
File: 770 KB, 127x189, aliendance.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6793984

>>6793320
>best men in the world are engineers
>Vladimir Putin
>Rick Owens
>Christopher Poole
>the black guy from death grips
how many of these guys are engineers?

>> No.6793987

>>6793943
Most of the engineers I work with (that are straight out of school) get stuck in some dead end make-work entry-level bullshit which is usually QA. Out of the three I know that do make good money (and do actual engineering), only one went to school and got a degree. The other two learned it in the field.

An engineering degree by itself just isn't enough anymore. Most places looking for designers (in my area at least) want some kind of practical experience in addition to the degree.

>> No.6793992

>>6793984
>best men in the world are
>Christopher Poole
Fuck off retard.

>> No.6793997

>>6793456
that sort of shit does happen

>> No.6794008
File: 640 KB, 1053x2898, skeletonjelly.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794008

>>6793992
christopher poole brought people together. people from different countries, different sexual orientation, different social status etc etc and gave us a cool discussion board to post funny pictures on
>christopher poole on the list of most influential people of 2008 by time magazine
>"h-h-he's not that great" -neckbeard posting on his site
okay kid

>> No.6794017

>>6794008
>ctrl+v'd futaba and ran it through Google translate
>7 years ago /b/ swarmed an internet poll
Real human bean there.

>> No.6794023

>>6794017
that just shows how influential he is tbh

I don't see millions of people voting for you in anything. The CEO of 4chan is more influential than the president

>> No.6794025

>>6793987
That's not an argument. Every degree requires a level of experience.

>> No.6794032

>as an engineer

You are not a fucking engineer until you have passed the FE/EIT exam. for fucks sake

>> No.6794035

>>6794032
>muh freedom

>> No.6794087

Lel no, every engineer I've met is a gross autistic bitchboy, but the physics/math guys seem like normal people

>> No.6794100

>>6794087
idk if it's the same for you but a lot of math people are trying to become teachers that's why they act normal.

>> No.6794106

>>6794087
weird. I saw it as the opposite.
> friend is a physics student
> agoraphobic
> goes back ways of downtown chicago to avoid crowds
> gets robbed

>> No.6794114

>>6794106
>not being agoraphobic
what a fag

>> No.6794139

>>6794032
there are certain titles such as "civil engineer" that you cannot claim until you have a PE. until then, have fun being an engineer-in-training and not having real world experience until you graduate in 2 years.

>>6794087
i knew a couple of those guys everywhere.
there was this one engineering major who was that dude that always raised his hand and rephrased the professors words and constantly asked questions.

my first math class with mostly mathematicians was an intro into proofs class. this person always audibly agreed with the professor whenever he said something, a big loud "mmm hmm" for the class to hear. when this guy didn't do so well on one of his midterms, he was asking around for everyone else's exam and making up excuses why he fucked up.

there was this computer science guy in my history class. he always wore those huge headphones, a tshirt, khaki shorts, and those ugly new balance running shoes. this guy was always asking the professor these dumb questions, sort of like the ones that tried to show how much more he knew but was full of shit. i saw him run in the rain once with his arms down and hands flat and horizontal like a poofter.

>> No.6794167

>>6794087
Social phobia EE student here. Surprisingly no fedoras in my classes

>> No.6794213

>>6793838
I wonder how you'd be able to shitpost on computer that requires knowledge of solid state physics.

>> No.6794241

>>6794213
Good thing I took moderns phys and QM

>> No.6794242

>>6793482
Nope, no access to a computer 90% of the time. At best I'll have a calculator to speed the process up.
>>6793647
My classes in chemE were much harder than my classes in physics.
>>6793654
We're on a board filled with high school students who are aspiring to become mathematicians and physicists.

They are the ones who post those basic-bitch homework questions.
>>6793708
p sure the engineers in this thread are being more humble than the kiddies wanting to go into a 'pure' field.
>>6793881
This is incorrect.
>>6793914
Freshman don't count, they're always filtered out.

>> No.6794248

>>6794242
>engineers don't work of scientific discoveries

>> No.6794252

>>6793227

They are polymaths at designing anal circumference enlarging sex toys and finding optimal sex positions for maximum rectal filling.

Other than their propensity for efficient faggotry, there is nothing which elevates the engineer above other plebs.

>> No.6794268

>>6794242
What physics classes have you taken?

>> No.6794284

>>6794268
Not him but my nuke courses were harder than the phys courses I took. Mechanics, E&M, modern phys, and QM

>> No.6794294

>>6794284
>no vibrations or wave
>no thermal&stat physics
>no nuke physics
>no solid state
>no optics
>no relativity
>no materials
>i know physics isn't as hard as engineering cause i took one junior and one senior level class therefore there all the same difficulty

>> No.6794301

>>6794284
When you say mechanics, do you mean freshman mechanics or analytic mechanics?

>> No.6794304

>>6794139
>mmhmm guy
"Look how much I know" guys are bad, but "mmhmm" guys make me fucking explode

>> No.6794316

>>6794294
>optics in E&M
>solid state and relativity in Modern phys
>two serperate materials science courses with specialization in radiation damage and ion transport
>Nucl engr so I had another two nucl phys courses just not from the phys dept

>> No.6794318

>>6794316
I don't get why people assume engrs don't know stuff just because the courses they too aren't all within the phys dept

>> No.6794321
File: 25 KB, 960x489, butthurt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794321

>>6794284
>>6794316
>being this sloppy

>> No.6794323

>>6794294
Different guy.
I took all of that, as well as mechanics, thermodynamics and fluid dynamics.

I had to take half of them for engineering, and I had to take organic chem up to my senior year.

That alone made engineering more difficult.

I rarely even work with organic materials, too.

>> No.6794331

>>6794323
>rarely even work with organic materials
>more difficult
>not extraneous

>> No.6794348

>>6794331
What?

I don't work with them now.

>> No.6794361

>>6794318
Because autism

>> No.6794362

>>6794348
That's what i meant, organic chem was just tangential at best.

>> No.6794385

>>6794321
Good on m8. Doesn't negate the fact that engrs know all the shit you think that only super genius phys majors know

>> No.6794389

>>6794362
No, the first two years were useful.

The last two were only useful for somebody studying pure chemistry/biology.

>> No.6794392

>>6794385
>implying and extrapolating

>> No.6794396

>>6793240
as a mech eng., i think you are either a bad engineer or just don't have enough curiosity

>> No.6794402 [DELETED] 

>>6794396
>mech eng
>calling other people bad engineers
how does it feel to be the niggers of engineering

>> No.6794409
File: 38 KB, 500x464, 1412195449776.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794409

What I don't get is why engineers feel so superior to non-STEMs while struggling with babby calc.

>> No.6794410

>>6794402
>niggers of engr
>not civils it IE

>> No.6794420

If you need an egg head for your engineering project you rent one; ample supply of these bloated one trick ponies.

>> No.6794429

>>6794402
>german fag
>your differentiation of engineering has no meaning here.
>had to take classes regarding auronautical/civil/materials eng

i think you are a butthurt troll but 6/10 for making me reply

>> No.6794448
File: 12 KB, 250x250, Shiggy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794448

>>6794429
>>y-your differentiation of engineering has no meaning here
>I-im not bust rustled at a-all
>not realizing this is a shit posting thread

>> No.6794463

I double major in maths and CS.

Engineers and CS people are okay, they're like the plebs of STEM. Physicists are like the plebs of actual maths.

I like maths. The people there are even prettier than in other STEM fields, and it has more girls than in physics or CE. Feelsgoodmang.

>>6793857
fantastic tales

>> No.6794468

>>6794463
The fact that math has more girls shows how much easier it is

>> No.6794471
File: 66 KB, 741x643, muh IQ.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794471

>>6794468
You forgot this

>> No.6794473

>>6793930
at any respectable university, the females are just as ambitious as the men

they are usually not in the mindset to cash in a lottery. but your view must be from a diploma mill

>> No.6794477

>>6793976
i respect this

>> No.6794482

>>6793976
Thank Mr.Double major

>> No.6794489

>>6793857
>Awesome! What are you working on?

HAhahaahahaa, das pathetic mane

u gon git zero pussy like dat

>> No.6794496

>>6794473
>there aren't countless numbers of whores that are going to college simply to party. there arent women that go simply to hook up with a soon to be successful bitch boy

>> No.6794500

>>6794294
engineers cover literally all of that shit

>> No.6794506

>>6793921
>imblying there aren't any desprete qt bio/biochem majors to fuck

>> No.6794517

>>6794471
>iq estimated based on SAT scores
>estimate iq

>> No.6794525

>>6794517
buttmad low-IQ engineer detected

>> No.6794529
File: 65 KB, 680x545, ainsley.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794529

>>6794517

>> No.6794540

>>6794525
well my estimated IQ from my SAT is 150+ so not really but shit like that is dumb and means literally shit

>> No.6794543

>>6794540
Yet you type like you are mentally impaired.

Commas, you stupid fuck, use them.

>> No.6794558
File: 51 KB, 370x370, 1s96587s.wizardchan.1397708793138.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794558

>>6793278
>Engineering does not foster creativity.

>> No.6794565
File: 200 KB, 530x433, url.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794565

>>6794558
>wizardchan

Hahahaha, typical engineer.

>> No.6794569

>>6794565

Hahahahahaha xD

>> No.6794570
File: 57 KB, 537x720, 1412428426617.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6794570

>>6794569
>let's play it off with sarcasm

No really, fuck off, omegabitchboy.

>> No.6794577

>>6794570

I don't go to wizardchan, that's a red herring you used to distract from the otherwise stupid statement that engineering doesn't foster creativity.

>> No.6794580

>>6794577
And what is le epic fedoraman.jpg? A proof?

Nice try, my omega friend, but /sci/ isn't wizardchan.

>> No.6794585

>>6794577
>Jokes on you, I was only pretending to be a pathetic loser

>> No.6794611

10/10 best troll thread recently

>> No.6794615

>>6794611
>/sci/ better shiposting than /s4s/ since 2010

>> No.6794621

i will admit this was fun though

>> No.6794640

>>6793498
>big data
*shudders*

>> No.6794738

>>6794615
Don't speak too soon, /b/rother. The best years of s4s may still have yet to come.

>> No.6794746

>>6794640
>Undermining big data

Jesus christ. I know retards use it like a buzzword, but the field is REALLY fucking interesting.

>> No.6794786

>>6794738
Only if moot doesn't turn this into reddit 2.0

>> No.6794822

>>6793276
Lol

>> No.6794843

>Be me.
>See first post.
>Realise that it is likely to be a bait thread.
>About 270 posts on it.
God bless /sci/.

>> No.6794848

>>6793276
>why

>> No.6794930

>>6794746
Mathematics is really fucking interesting.
"Big data" is a retarded buzzword and that's coming from someone conducting data analysis right now.

>> No.6795114
File: 93 KB, 1024x768, Isaac+fighting+Necromorphs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6795114

This guy's an engineer. It suits him, don't you think?

>> No.6795116

>>6794786
>M. Night Shayamalan smiles behind computer

>> No.6795130

>>6794930
I don't know what he actually does I just know he does shit with statistics and data analysis for big names and needs special computers to handle it all and the room he works in is like 5-10 degrees warmer than the rest of his house half the time

>> No.6795138
File: 48 KB, 746x555, break-in-yo-crib-and-fuck-yo-bitch-nigga.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6795138

>physics (PhD) and philosophy(logic specifically) double major

I'm happy with my choices.

>> No.6795146
File: 15 KB, 480x360, 0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6795146

>>6795138
>filename

>> No.6795153

>>6795138
Actually a freshman taking physics, phil, and math. I'm undecided though. Where has that got you?

>> No.6795175

>>6795153
>triple major

why

>> No.6795185

>>6795175
physics, phil, and math classes*. I said I'm undecided, they're all gen-eds but things I'm interested in.

>> No.6795192

>>6795175
physics is the obvious choice out of all three.

math is pointless without something to apply it to(double major in some shit) and philosophy is cool especially logic type shit but I think >>6795138 did it to change up his studies a bit. logic major definitely comes in handy for a lot of shit though. he can probably code at like autist lvl 99 just because of the logic major let alone the physics phd.. depending on what he is studying in physics.. you can do a LOT of shit with a degree in physics and that logic degree just added to it because logic degrees is basically all about the logic of WHATEVER you're doing/studying.. i think a degree in logic makes you efficient as fuck.

>> No.6795211

I think it's funny watching wanna-be engineers drop out of school/ change majors when the math gets too hard for them. The ones that actually become engineers are pretty useful, not much more than useful though.

>> No.6795220

>>6795138
Based Tf00t does it again.

>> No.6795226

>>6795130
Are you even old enough to be browsing 4chan?

>> No.6795231

>>6795226
I'm not sure what from that would have you suspecting me of being underage but I'm 23

>> No.6795247

>>6795231
>i'm not underage , i'm just a newag

>> No.6795252

>>6795231
Well you have the diction of a 10 year old.

>> No.6795254

>>6795252
i'm not trying to get my anonymous internet conversations published so i'm not overly concerned with it

>> No.6795256

The only thing engineers are good for is sucking cock.

>> No.6795257

>>6795256
You seem to know a lot about sucking cocks.

>> No.6795264

Holy fuck I hate this board

>> No.6795276

>>6795264
buttmad engineer detected

>> No.6795278

>>6795276
I'm actually a physical scientist you trogdolyte.

>> No.6795284

Fuck you /sci/ I switched from EE to physics because you all told me how great I'd be and this is the worst fucking shit. I studied my ass off for 4 years getting a 3.7 GPA and I am unemployed and neet for 3 years already while my engineering peers all have jobs and makong money. Fuck you all and get your shitty egos out of your ass already

>> No.6795286

>>6795284
>listening to the collective autism that is /sci/
Jesus Christ what is wrong with yout

>> No.6795287

>>6795278
>i'm an actual scientist
then what are you doing here

>>6795284
>taking advice from a chinese cartoon board
>imblying anyone is going to believe you
> studied my ass off for 4 years and didn't go to gradschool , or bothered to double major

>> No.6795296

>>6795286
I don't know I was young but fuck.
>>6795287
Are you saying I was supposed to go to do a double major AND go to grad school? Holy shit.

>> No.6795297

>>6795284
If this is true then why didn't you go for a PhD?

>> No.6795299

>>6795296
>double major AND go to grad school

It's really not that big of a deal.

>> No.6795302

>>6793287
Did you graduate at the top of your class in the Navy SEALs too? lol get real faggot

>> No.6795305

>>6795297
I'd much rather earn money then spend money for another few years on something that I'd most likely fail on. Unfortunalty that meant, to earn money, I needed to spend even more time and money on it and by then I just lost all hope

>> No.6795308

>>6795296
Sorry that should be and/or , if you would of gone to gradschool with just physics you would of been fine. Could of suffered through 4-5 years of hell for PhD in condensed matter , and you could of got a fairly decent industry job that at worst would of paid average. Going into the sciences without another major to supplement it and/or getting a masters/phd is stupid. I have a friend who doubles in math and physics in case the worst happens in gradschool.

>> No.6795309

>>6795305
I feel like you're lying because most people get paid to receive a PhD.

>> No.6795312

>>6795305
A stipend/fellowship may be anemic , but if they weren't going to pay you to get a PhD then you were a failure from the get go.

>> No.6795903

>>6795211
Better than being useless, like you.

>> No.6795909
File: 81 KB, 495x854, zxvc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6795909

>>6793287
>>6793287
>>6793287
You're not good at understanding the phrase "correlation does not imply causation" though. Also, being an 'AP art student', being a piano player, and winning awards for 'writing' is not-

>"just about everything btw"

..if you think this then you need to educate yourself and work on your egotism before calling people 'stupid' because they said something you didn't agree with.

>> No.6795983

>>6795909
It does foster creativity in that you need to be able to come up with elegant solutions for problems where you often face severe restrictions and limitations

>> No.6796653

>>6795909
There is no need to be upset.

>> No.6796660

>>6795909
rekt. thanks thunderf00t.

>> No.6796703

>>6796653
you're obviously mad because literally nobody says that unless they're mad and are trying to save face which is prett pathetic to do on an anonymous anime board.

>> No.6796715

>>6796703
2/10

>> No.6796728

>>6796715
see what I mean?

>> No.6796749

>>6796728
Please stop acting so jealous, troll.

>> No.6796767

>>6796749
you don't have to keep going.