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/sci/ - Science & Math

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6696380 No.6696380 [Reply] [Original]

Try disprove or at least devalidate this bit of troll metaphysics. It's been bugging me since I made it up earlier today.

Any universe like ours will reach a state of zero information given an infinite amount of time.
All scenarios of physics are time-reversible.
Therefore, time-reversing zero information infinite amount will not only yield information, the information can be that of any scenario that heads towards zero information.

And I'm not even sure literal eternities are required to reach zero information.

>> No.6696385

>>6696380
>Therefore, time-reversing zero information infinite amount will not only yield information, the information can be that of any scenario that heads towards zero information.
Could you rephrase this sentence? I can't understand it, it seems grammatically wrong. Note, english is not my native language.

>> No.6696393
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6696393

>>6696380

>>given an infinite amount of time.

kek

>>All scenarios of physics are time-reversible.

No.

>> No.6696395

>>6696380
>All scenarios of physics are time-reversible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-symmetry

>> No.6696396

>>6696385
not him but this might make more sense.

Therefore, time reversing the zero information state an infinite amount of time, will not only yield information, the information can be that of any scenario that will result in the zero information state.

>> No.6696399

>>6696385
Whoops, my bad.
>therefore, running a scenario of zero information backwards an infinite amount will not only cause the scenario to have nonzero information, but an infinite number of different scenarios should be possible.
Obviously that makes no sense, but it's what my reasoning comes to.

>>6696393
Clearly someone hasn't been doing their cosmology homework.
If time-reversal wasn't possible, causality wouldn't make sense.
Quantum effects should obey time reversal with pretty much any model.

>> No.6696401

>>6696396
Other than the second comma that shouldn't be there, that's a perfect explanation.
Thanks.

>> No.6696409

>>6696399
>If time-reversal wasn't possible, causality wouldn't make sense.
second law of thermo says you're wrong

>> No.6696443

>>6696399
>If time-reversal wasn't possible, causality wouldn't make sense.
But entropy can not be reversed. No matter how long you wait entropy will never allow for thing to get back to a previous lower entropy state.

It could happen if you could reverse entropy. Then it would be like watching a video tape in reverse. But reversing entropy is where things get metaphysical.

>>6696396
Thanks that helped me understand.

>> No.6696446

OP here. Managed to find the fallacy:
T-symmetry and information loss are incompatible concepts.

>> No.6696451

>Any universe like ours will reach a state of zero information given an infinite amount of time.

Why would that be true?

>> No.6696455

>>6696451
This is what I'm curious about as well, anyone have a source for this idea I can read?

>> No.6696474

>>6696443
I just want to say that entropy theoretically can decrease, it's a probabilistic one with so small chance that it's nearly zero and in our physical world does probably not applied, but to say that reversing entropy is metaphysical is plain wrong

>> No.6696501

Your error lies in the first point.

A universe like ours won't reach zero information in an infinite amount of time.

If you think it must do this given an infinite amount of time, then the conclusion is that time is not infinite.

>> No.6696506

>>6696380
lukewarm and boring (nothing happens except the occasional quantum fluctuation)

>> No.6696511

>>6696474
Once a neutron decays, you can't get the neutrino back in there. It's energy is lost forever. It's not like the universe has walls that it could bounce off and get back near the electron to form a W-boson. It requires energy to change it's direction.

>> No.6696520

>>6696511
of course, in that you are right, but there is no physical law that prevents a situation/system to have its initial conditions to be in exact way that makes the system more ordered i.e. decreasing entropy. That is what I meant that entropy can decrease over time again of course the probability of having these initial conditions is practically zero.