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/sci/ - Science & Math

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6554700 No.6554700[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

In the documentary "What do we *bleep* do we know?!!", The movie talked about our perception and the uncertainty of that perception. There was a scene that I wanted to discuss, where an Indian was looking off shore.

He was standing there for a while and only saw ocean, but then all of a sudden Christopher Columbus' shit appeared because the Indian never saw a Carrack ship before.

So here is the question I pose to /sci/, is it plausible that the Indians perception was so unfamiliar with the ship that it was total INVISIBLE. Or do you think that the Indian saw the ship, and simply didn't know what it was until people started jumping out.

Here is the video if anyone wants to see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQcBQc3oaKg

>> No.6554706

Maybe but it's got nothing to do with quantum physics.

I've had experiences of not being able to detect things that I'm looking for e.g. my keys despite their being directly in my line of sight simply because I wasn't expecting them to be where they were.

>> No.6554709

There are several aspects to this.

First, and obviously: Photons bouncing off the sides of the ships entered his eyes and were processed by his visual cortex.

Second, and more interesting: Did he *notice* the ships? I claim he did: I see many many things every day that I don't notice. The individual stones of walls I pass, the individual blades of grass I pass over. The things I notice are the things that are NOT standard. The guy running past in orange clothes. The Ferrari, standing out among the Fords and Chevrolets.

Third: Did he understand what he was seeing? Probably not to start with but, I mean, honestly, is that controversial? I cannot imagine that's the "interesting perspective" the documentary was going for. "Sometimes we don't understand new things we haven't seen before" what a bold and controversial statement!

>> No.6554718

>>6554700
The story, as told, is BS.
If you don't understand something you still see it.
"The story actually traces back to Captain Cook and his landing in Australia in April 1770. In other first encounters, the locals sailed or paddled out to meet Cook’s ship... But when Cook arrived off Australia, his ship drew no reaction. According to the historian Robert Hughes: “It was the largest artefact ever seen on the East Coast of Australia, an object so huge, complex and unfamiliar as to defy the natives’ understanding.” This is clearly the origin of the tale of invisible ships. It was only when the Europeans landed in canoes that the natives took action: “The sight of men in small boats was comprehensible to them: it meant invasion.”

http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/science/20/questioning_perceptual_blindness.html

Fortrean Times would love to tell you something weirder is going on.

>> No.6554733

>>6554700
What
No, it's not possible; they might've not realised what it was at first, but not to see it? That's dumb
>google the film
Yeah, you shouldn't take it seriously, looks like new age propaganda movie

>> No.6554734

>>6554718
>http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/science/20/questioning_perceptual_blindness.html
>this reveals whats going on

No it does'nt. That's jumping to conclusions. He can't say that was why the natives ignored the ships and he makes no effort to support it.

>they didnt pay attention to the ship
>which is kinda like how girls ignore me
>so it's the same

>> No.6554749

>>6554734
OK, yes, the historian didn't actually enter the minds of the natives.
But how about someone put forth evidence that not understanding a very new thing leaves us unable to even perceive it.Instaed of assuming that's what happened to one of the native groups first seeing European ships and using that to base the position that this "it's invisible 'cause it's new" shit is real.

>> No.6554757

>>6554734
>they didnt pay attention to the ship
>which is kinda like how girls ignore me
>so it's the same
Funny thing is, the above is one possible explanation. The Europeans couldn't believe how much they were being ignored. "It can't be because the natives don't realize how awesome and important we are. Maybe there is some massive perception weirdness going on."

>> No.6554758

>>6554700
I once watched a documentary about the evolution of art, going over cave paintings and how they were evidently the result of neurological illusions.

At one point they refer to a turkish man who had never before seen an image. He was presented with the image of a horse(a photo perhaps), an animal which he would have been well familiar with, and it made no sense to him. The likeness of a horse wasn't meaningful to him. It was unintelligble.

Which I found to be rather interesting

>> No.6554761

A cooler question would be:

If we saw intelligent life, would this happen to us? Have we already seen aliens?

>> No.6554763

>>6554758
That is pretty cool. A reminder that we learn how to experience the mediums we use. And that even photo images are just abstractions.

>> No.6554766

>>6554700
This is fucking stupid.

>> No.6554797

>>6554757
Absolutely it's one possible explanation, but it doesn's seem plausible. The analogy with wheelchair users and (d-list?)celebritis isn't pertinent. It's like the deathstar of canoes that could legitimately wreck their shit. That's a reason to pay atttention. You wouldn't ignore a bear.

>> No.6554799

That documentary is buttfuck retarded and the producers should be shot in the neck. It is new age hippy bullshit written for stoners and retards who think they are the biggest genuises in the world for coming up with retarded shit that makes no sense to anyone with half a braincell or education.

>> No.6554890

>>6554797
>It's like the deathstar of canoes that could legitimately wreck their shit. That's a reason to pay atttention. You wouldn't ignore a bear.

But if you don't understand the threat? The natives didn't ignore foreigners on the ground or in landing craft. That was something they could understand. Maybe it took them a while to understand that the ships were where the foreigners were coming from.

It's not just that they were experiencing something so new. It's that they were unpracticed at experiencing ANYTHING new.

I might ignore a bear if I had no fucking idea of the threat it was, AND if I wasn't used to analyzing something new to see, among other things, if it was a threat.

>> No.6554894

Kind of like when penguins in the Artic with no natural predators don't give a fuck about camera people.

>> No.6554913

>>6554799
And it was made in Portland, Oregon. But that's basically what you said.

I'm a Seattleite, so I know from new age hippy bullshitters. Portland is like if you strained the populous of Seattle and kept only the hippy/douchebag/hipsters.

>> No.6554929

(A) it's not a documentary; don't trust it. So. Much. Bullshit
(B) total nonsense story. If ignorance of things could cause your brain to filter out those things, learning and scientific discovery would literally never happen.
(C) >>>/x/

>> No.6554947

>>6554700
The isolated tribes in South America clearly saw helicopters the first time they flew over and I am 100% certain a giant flying decimator wheel machine is more unfamiliar than a big boat with a clothesline.

>> No.6555856
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6555856

>>6554700
I think that's fucking dumb. Just read the journal Columbus left behind. The Indians fucking swam out, paddled out, stared from shore, called family to come see, and a few ran scared (probably cause they know when someone shows up that isn't your tribe you might just get murdered and raped).

The shitty thing is though that Columbus had a habit of kidnapping. But it was so god damn easy cause these people just came out to the boat and acted friendly as all get out.

The mere thought that another human is a dumb fuck just because his culture is different is dangerous arrogance.

http://youtu.be/xd0I1xAICOc

check it. First contact with a Papua New Guinea tribe.

>> No.6555867

A horizon could hide a ship due to curvature and shit and people can ignore things but you generally don't just start perceiving something out of the blue that was never perceptible before.

This movie has long been derided for being riddled with post hoc BS and spiritualists co-opting scientific language.

>> No.6555868

This is Columbus's journal of first contact. It's a good comparison to the video above.

http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/01-col.html

>> No.6556132

>>6554700
>"What do we *bleep* do we know?!!"
>documentary
just no

>> No.6556151

It's unlikely that it is invisible, in terms of sensation the light will activate the same retinal cells as a person well versed with the object. However, since the object is previously not known to the indians it's possible their perception of it greatly differed from westerners.

There's a long line of intricate passage between light and perception. One of the more interesting is how Russians can immediately distinguish between two types of blue that non-Russians lacking the word distinction cannot. So what is conceptually relevant to distinguish affects the perception in one way or the other, but it is still unlikely that you will be unable to distinguish between a ship and its surrounding water.

>> No.6556170

>>6555856
This

They probably saw it but didn't understand it at first thus went out to investigate.

>> No.6556207

Sounds like a whole bunch of retarded conjecture, typical of cultural marxist documentaries

>> No.6556235

>>6554700
That "documentary" is not based in science or fact.

Its best to disregard everything that stupid movie showed, because none of it is true

>> No.6556316

>>6554700
>INVISIBLE
Go to a modern art museum and find the weirdest 3D abstract model you can find. Is it invisible to you? No. If it is there's something very wrong with you.

>> No.6556317

>>6554700
>So here is the question I pose to /sci/, is it plausible that the Indians perception was so unfamiliar with the ship that it was total INVISIBLE. Or do you think that the Indian saw the ship, and simply didn't know what it was until people started jumping out.
No, that is incredibly retarded.

>> No.6556320

Oh god, that video just makes me cringe.

Does this actually pass as rational thinking to some people?

>> No.6556326

>>6556207
>cultural marxist documentaries
This is a pop-sci /x/ tier documentary. It's split into tons of segments of tinfoil hat tier nonsense. I think this might be the only segment that remotely mentions other cultures. Watch the rest of it if you want to rage.

>> No.6556439

>>6556320
Rational thinking is considered "close minded" by a pretty great deal of people
Because, you know, "there's more to life than simple materialism!"

>> No.6556467

If you can't recognize something you've never seen before because it doesn't fit your constructed worldview or some such shit, how do babies, which have minimal to no such conditioning, see anything at all?

>> No.6558307

bump

>> No.6558317

>>6558307
Why would you bump this thread? It's a wonder it hasn't been deleted and the poster banned.

>> No.6558345
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6558345

>>6554700
How the fuck does this even work?
>oh I haven't seen a car before
>if I go to a city, all cars will seem invisible for the first time, until one hits me or until something magically happens
wut

>> No.6558363

>>6554700
Let's take historical accounts on this: the Aztecs never saw the Spanish before...so if this theory is true, it would have been supposed that they couldn't see their horses and plate mail armor, but in fact they did and it was recorded in texts and paintings. They even gave them a special name: big dogs.
Beyond this, the whole movie is bullshit and falls under pseudoscience.
There has been an interesting article regarding it:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know%3F