/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.6503160]

I don't understand. My brother studied Biology and Science throughout his entire life and he ended up more religious than before.

How is that even possible? Do you have to actively block out logical argument? I don't even discuss it any more with him and it always ends in logical fallacies like spirituality and such.

He's far smarter than I could dream to be but not even intelligence can make him think critically. Or am I being arrogant?

[Anonymous No.6503167]

>>6503160
ITT things that never happened and never will

Thread hidden

[Anonymous No.6503168]

>>6503160
>Do you have to actively block out logical argument?

I can only explain it as cognitive dissonance. I'm a geophysics grad student, and my adviser is a big christian. Smart guy, I don't get it.

May have to do with the difficulty of discarding religion when it's been hammered into you from birth.

[Anonymous No.6503169]

>studied science

captcha: retenrds postreg

[Anonymous No.6503181]

>>6503168

>May have to do with the difficulty of discarding religion when it's been hammered into you from birth.

I think this makes a lot of sense. I've found some religious people directly involved with science, but all of them have been raised in religious homes.

[Anonymous No.6503212]

>>6503160
>studied science
He lied, he was in the army and got religious in Iraq.

[surrealdeal No.6503232]

this pretty much proves that god exists if you knew physics:

[Anonymous No.6503235]

>>6503232
Please explain how the potential energy/work created by a force acting over a physical area proves the existence of God.
>Protip, you can't
Sucks though, since I have a degree in physics, minor in materials engineering, and am pursuing a PhD in materials chemistry all while believing that there is indeed a higher power.

[Anonymous No.6503241]

>>6503235
>Please explain how the potential energy/work created by a force acting over a physical area proves the existence of God.

Where does the force come from? Why does it act at all? It's clearly the work of God.

[Anonymous No.6503243]

>>6503235
What are your reasons for this belief, if there are any?

[Anonymous No.6503250]

>>6503243
i dunno lol

[Anonymous No.6503259]

>>6503241

Where does god come from? Why does he act at all?

Seriously though. Semantics, dude.

[Anonymous No.6503264]

>>6503259
He doesn't come from anywhere, He is, was and will always be.

[Anonymous No.6503266]

>>6503264
That seems vague and unfalsifiable

[Anonymous No.6503267]

>>6503264

Nah man, something doesn't come from nothing, that was your original fucking point.

[Anonymous No.6503270]

>>6503267
>>6503266
It works for quantum mechanics

[Anonymous No.6503273]

>>6503267
God doesn't have to obey the laws of science.

[Anonymous No.6503276]

>>6503243
The basis for my belief is the fact that we are human, and only a very small, insignificant drop in the bucket that is our universe.
As humans, we are only able to perceive that which we have receptors to receive stimuli.
Most of these receptors operate within a limited range of the total stimuli which could be present (IE, we cannot see gamma ray/IR/UV/microwave/radiowave spectrum light, despite it being in abundance).
Let alone, things with which we can barely wrap our minds around on how to observe or measure - IE, the complete field of gravitational theory isn't complete, dark matter and energy are barely understood, what happened before the big bang is thought to be impossible/nearly impossible to measure.
With our limited perception and abilities, combined with the vastness and diversity which our nearly infinite universe has within it (not to mention the possibility of multi-verses) - I think it would be ignorant to state that I know for a fact that there is nothing else in the universe which plays a role in how space evolves over time.
I like to imagine the universe as what everyone has been calling God this whole time.

[Anonymous No.6503280]

>>6503270
Oh, I see how it is. You were just pretending.

[Anonymous No.6503281]

>>6503273
He fucking makes them, right.

[Anonymous No.6503286]

>>6503276
That's a decent argument for agnosticism, not theism.

[Anonymous No.6503293]

>>6503286
True, and on the basis of agnosticism, I choose to err on the side of thinking that there is a greater power/will which truly works toward "good", although being limited and subjective understanding that greater good is impossible.

That and one time I experienced a miracle - although most people would bawk at the fact that I call it a miracle or tell me my memory is plain wrong.

[Anonymous No.6503299]

>>6503293
I think your belief may be a form of pantheism actually. Which is somewhat between atheism and theism.

[Anonymous No.6503307]

>21st century
>wasting time labelling different stands on religion and "God"
>wasting time self-identifying with them

[Anonymous No.6503308]

For some people I guess discovering and understanding the complex wonders of the universe can invoke a sense of spirituality. I'm agnostic and majoring in biology, but the things I'm learning really tug at a desire in me for there to be something more, that there is some higher force or something. Naturally, I have absolutely no way of knowing this so I don't subscribe to a specific set of beliefs, but it kind of humbles you when you realize just how fucking vast and bizarre this place really is and how after all these years we still understand relatively little of it. For some people I guess this thought can be scary instead of comforting, so they cling to a faith to ground themselves somehow.

There's also the social aspect. I know tons of Christians who are just lonely and want other like-minded people to be with. There's a reason most churches have shit tons of old people in them.

[Anonymous No.6503312]

>>6503299
I actually do consider myself a pantheist :)
Come all, let us praise the Sun! The universe has blessed us with life and the abundance which we can all see. Let us try to do good for the betterment of ourselves, our neighbors, and our world.
so on, so forth
PRAISE THE SUN!

[Anonymous No.6503315]

>>6503307
>21st century
>wasting time labelling different stands on religion and "God"
>wasting time
Jimminy crickets.
Posting here and lauding others for taking an introspective look on their own beliefs is pretty hypocritical

[Anonymous No.6503322]

>>6503312
I quite like views like pantheism, they're right on the edge of what you'd call 'god'. I'd say I'm totally agnostic towards pantheism and deism. Maybe the universe is so complex you could call it intelligent, who knows? It annoys me how organized religion is seen to have a monopoly on stuff like this, considering how unlikely the stuff in holy books is, it really demeans the whole debate.

[Anonymous No.6503323]

because quantum mechanics.
he's probably not really religious, just spiritual.

[Anonymous No.6503328]

>>6503322
It does, for multiple reasons.
First, you have traditional theists who can only see God in the scope with which they were taught to believe in.
Second, you have atheists arguing against any concept of God by assuming that all concepts of God must follow from the same logic as the traditional theists.
I'd like the think that the universe itself is so intelligent, we can't even observe that sentience, let alone understand it.

[Anonymous No.6503330]

>>6503308

I agree with this idea.

I think some people are just so intimidated by some facts that while they accept them, it's hard to just simply leave it at that.

Religion doesn't have to replace science, it just explains the reasoning and method behind it.

I'm not really religious but seriously, it's rather eerie trying to get over the idea that we have no idea why we exist, or why physics even work they way they do. It's simply more calming to put something behind it all. I really wish I had the faith to stick with ideas like "I'll see my loved ones again in heaven"

[Anonymous No.6503334]

I don't think they're mutual exclusive. the clergy helped made western science (albeit they were like the only people who could read then) . Also a priest first posit the big bang theory

also dat islamic golden age

[Anonymous No.6503335]

>>6503293
>bawk
Balk.
Also, human beings' perceptions are frightfully untrustworthy. It is more likely a neuron misfired than a deity exists given your witnessing of a miracle.

[Anonymous No.6503338]

>>6503328
If it was that complex would you even call it intelligence? It would be something else entirely.

[Anonymous No.6503341]

>>6503315
>Posting here and lauding others for taking an introspective look on their own beliefs is pretty hypocritical

How so? By the way, this is a Science & Mathematics board.

[Anonymous No.6503344]

>>6503330
> it just explains the reasoning and method behind it
What? The reasoning behind science... is explained by religion? That statement is all kinds of fucked up.

[Anonymous No.6503345]

>>6503330
>I really wish I had the faith to stick with ideas like "I'll see my loved ones again in heaven"
While I understand this sentiment, I really really don't like it. You're basically saying you'd like to give up your critical thinking ability for some comfort.

For me, all these mysteries are just amazing. They mean we've got loads of new stuff to discover and that's really exiting. A lot more exiting than anything religion can provide.

[Anonymous No.6503351]

>>6503335
Nah. I tried to chalk it up to that.
>Be sophomore at uni
>Also bike racing/bike mechanic
>Put up flyers on campus, low-cost or free bicycle repairs
>Go to math building, help Chinese girl with messed up brakes
>Leave tool there (only set I had of that tool)
>Go back to dorm, oh shit oh shit forgot tool at bike rack
>Go back to math building, tools nowhere
>Go back to dorm, resigned
>Tool laying on my guest bed
I had a single dorm-room, and my room was locked the entire time. Unless my neurons were misfiring the whole time and somehow the tool was invisible, it did indeed materialize on my bed between my discovery of leaving it behind, and my final arrival at my dorm room.

[Anonymous No.6503358]

>>6503351
That is indeed very strange, but what about that leads you to believe there's something supernatural that wanted to make your day better?

[Anonymous No.6503363]

>>6503341
The reasoning behind that post is that by being on this board, you are wasting time.
Wasted time is wasted time, regardless of what fruitless endeavor that time was wasted on.
However, those taking an introspective and philosophical approach usually do so to find a sense of calm or sense of belonging in the universe.
You're denigration and mockery of others on an anonymous message board does nothing.

[Anonymous No.6503373]

>>6503358
I don't know.
I felt like I was doing selfless work (the girl, I didn't charge a dime to help, it was just a simple adjustment), and with the tool I needed to do the selfless work simply appearing out of thin air - I chalked that up as a sign of "keep doing the good work, anon".
Or something.

[Anonymous No.6503383]

>>6503344

I didn't really word it correctly. I meant reasoning behind how things work the way they do.

With an agnostic/athiest view, there is no real reason behind how things work the way they do. And I don't mean some stupid bull shit like "TIDE GOES IN TIDE GOES OUT, CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT" I mean like, why does anything exist at fucking all? Religion puts reasoning behind that. Humans seek answers, it's unsettling having this burning question with no answer, and no discernible way to figure out the answer. Religion is just a comforting placeholder for some people, a coping mechanism if you want to see it that way.

>>6503345
Like I said above, religion doesn't really have to replace science, it's pretty much just a placeholder for actual provable facts. It's just that some people cling to these placeholders as facts themselves, and that's when problems occur.

[Anonymous No.6503390]

>>6503351
Dude that's kind of pathetic. Some classmate clearly knew who you were and saw that you had forgotten your tools and decided to return them to you.

[Anonymous No.6503395]

>>6503390
Not the case.
Like I originally said, my room was locked the entire time I was not in it. I did not have roommates, there was only my key and the one that the office kept.
This was also on the 10th floor of a dormitory, so throwing it through my window into my room is also not a possibility.

[Anonymous No.6503398]

>>6503363
I'm not wasting my time though, I'm merely taking a break.

[Anonymous No.6503399]

>>6503373
That's anecdotal evidence so I can't argue with it, I wasn't there. But looking at other examples, this kind of stuff doesn't happen on a regular basis. Many good deeds don't get a reward. To me, it seems more likely there was some fluke or misunderstanding than your tools defied the laws of physics to materialize in your room.

Sorry if that sounds condescending, if it had happened to me I'd think it was pretty weird but an outside view can put things into perspective.

>>6503383
Well, alcoholism is a coping mechanism too. I don't see how that makes religion any better.

[Anonymous No.6503404]

I think any sort of religious tendencies are likely to make a person less vigorous in their questioning of nature and her laws, even if only subconsciously. It seems more likely that instead of pursuing some question they would just chalk it up to one of the universe's/God's deep mysteries, intractable to a human's puny intellect. Like that guy on here talking about abiogenesis not long ago. Seems more like a rationalization of the epistemic nature of reality than a heart-felt belief in a creator, just another easy answer.

*Tips fedora*

I might be wrong though, who knows.

[Anonymous No.6503406]

>>6503398
How's that cognitive dissonance working out for you?

[Anonymous No.6503416]

>>6503399

>Well, alcoholism is a coping mechanism too. I don't see how that makes religion any better.

perhaps I'm arguing for the wrong thing entirely in the first place. Religion does cause problems. It pits people against each other more often than not, and is often very rigid in its interpretations and beliefs. I'm mainly just arguing for spirituality, and faith, and only when your actions that might effect others are never based on either.

[Anonymous No.6503425]

>>6503399
You're right. I have tried to chalk it up to a lot of things - but I can only go off of what I perceived that day.
I never believe in miracles, and was a pure agnostic at the time.
Who knows, perhaps I somehow collapsed two different possible outcomes upon leaving helping the girl into the one outcome which worked out in my favor.
I think I'll go with that and get out of this board.
>Anon, converging separate universes into one since 2009

[Anonymous No.6503426]

>>6503399

>alcoholism is a coping mechanism too

I'd say that's far more destructive on a personal level than religion is. The main reason that I defend religion despite all if its bullshit is because it gives people hope. I'm an agnostic, and a pretty nihilistic one, and I can say firsthand just how depressing and empty this kind of belief system can be. That can be too much for some people to handle, especially when dealing with loss or hardship.

I've had conversations with theists about this, and most of them acknowledge just how stupid most of their mainstream beliefs are, but it gives them a sense of purpose. Even though I'm agnostic, I honestly couldn't imagine raising a child and telling them nothing means anything. That's a hard thing for most adults to handle, let alone kids.

The way I've always heard it put is this: science explains the how, religion explains the why. For atheists/agnostics the why is embedded somewhere deep in the how, which I can comfortably say that we're probably never going to discover. For theists, the why is its own thing, which they accept independently of other things. As long as they don't hurt people I really don't see how this is a negative thing. It only becomes a problem when you forgo the how and only cling to the why, as >>6503383 said.

[Anonymous No.6503428]

>>6503406
It's the truth though, I'm studying Electrostatics. I'm at chapter 2, page 80 of Griffiths' Introduction to Electrodynamics, just finished reading Electric Potential and will be soon moving to Poisson's and Laplace's equations to be very specific. I had been studying for over 5 hours and decided to take a break.

[Anonymous No.6503451]

I'm not a regular on /sci/ but I just read through this thread and I agree with a lot of the sentiments being shared here. I'm also really impressed that people on this board don't troll and shit on each other at every opportunity. Thanks /sci/ *tips fedora*

[Anonymous No.6503454]

God is an idea to give a meaning to the universe. It is really hard accept that nothing has a purpose.

[Anonymous No.6503459]

>>6503426
That's fair enough, of course it doesn't make it any more probable. I know "there isn't a grand purpose" can be difficult but it really shouldn't be. Factually, it doesn't seem like there is one, so that means there's no limits to the good we can do. We don't need to circumsize kids just because it's been revealed in a book. Like Feynman said, I have no problem with uncertainty. Why is it good for people to get easy answers RIGHT NOW, rather than investigating or learning. Learning is one of the best things you can do. I'd rather have uncertainty based on evidence than certainty in something spurious.

But a lot of people seem to want that. So I'm not a crusader against religion, it's going to stay around. But that doesn't mean it's answers are somehow more fulfilling than really appreciating what we know and more importantly what we don't know.

>>6503451
/sci/ is pretty good when it comes to religion. Don't get anyone here started on consciousness though.

[Anonymous No.6503462]

Physical laws are quite simple even though arbitrary(Causality tells us arbitrary parameters must be set through an active effort, unless you believe in magic nothings exploding for no reason), but biological systems are much more sophisticated and interdependent, you need a lot of faith to believe chance and time alone can develop those systems.

[Anonymous No.6503467]

>>6503462
Hello abiogenesis guy

[Anonymous No.6503485]

>>6503451

/sci/ has its share of trolls, but they're usually contained within their own threads. They're also considerable more entertaining than most other boards.

[Anonymous No.6503500]

>>6503351
And therefore you believe in god? You're full of shit lol.

[Anonymous No.6503558]

>>6503168
>>6503160
>>6503181


>Implying being learned in the natural sciences in any way negates one's belief in a God

Of course it would cause one to take the bible less literally but you need to accept that nothing in science has, is, or ever will suggest that there is no higher power.

Is this that hard to understand?

[Anonymous No.6503600]

>>6503558
Except, yknow, Occam's Razor

[Anonymous No.6503636]

>>6503160
>My brother studied Biology and Science throughout his entire life and he ended up more religious than before.
Biologists are actually more prone to this kind of thing than other scientists. They're surrounded by awesome biological stuff, and it's is so interesting and diverse and complex that they feel there must be some intelligent design behind it.

Physicists don't seem to fall into this trap, probably because the mathematics behind advanced physics is so elegant and precise and well-founded that they don't feel the need to look to a higher power. Chemists rely on the physicists, so they don't look to a higher power either.

[Anonymous No.6503647]

>>6503558
Why would you need the existence of a higher power, though? We can postulate that the quantum "foam" of spacetime is filled with tiny universes. But not only does it have zero effect on our current observations and experiments, it also requires a whole 'nother layer of physics to explain it.
As this guy said: >>6503600
it's best for now to use Occam's Razor.

[Anonymous No.6503670]

Maybe i'm alone in this (just perused threat, i guess i'm not), but i don't consider science a religion, and don't see science and atheism as mutually exclusive. I feel as though a lot of people here has adopted science as some sort of theistic deity, rather than an amazing series of (generally) flexible tools, implementations, and processes...

Faith and Science don't speak the same language, i don't see reconciliation between the two, and i also don't see them as adversarial...

I wouldn't even say it's cognitive dissonance, personally...

[Anonymous No.6503685]

>>6503670
>I feel as though a lot of people here has adopted science as some sort of theistic deity,
That's not my impression of this board, but that is a critique I often hear from theists without actual points to make.

[Anonymous No.6503688]

>>6503459

>But that doesn't mean it's answers are somehow more fulfilling than really appreciating what we know and more importantly what we don't know.

Oh I agree completely. There are just some beliefs that help people sleep better at night and let them cope with the shittiness that goes on in their lives in ways outside of conventional knowledge.

For instance, I'd like to believe that my dog actually loves me and cares about me on an emotional level and doesn't just harbor an attachment to me because I feed him and give him a place to sleep. But I know that his "love" isn't true; he's an animal without higher cognitive function, but I really don't like thinking about it that way, and deluding myself about it really doesn't hurt anyone. In fact I'd argue it helps me and my dog more than if I actually acknowledged the truth on a daily basis. That's just me though. Cat people would probably disagree.

You could argue that people that don't "need" religion are stronger from an emotional standpoint than those that do, but everyone copes differently so it's hard to make an objective statement like that. And honestly I'd be lying if I said the thought of seeing all of my deceased loved ones when I'm gone isn't a comforting thought.

[Anonymous No.6503700]

>>6503685
>>6503670

> a lot of people here has adopted science as some sort of theistic deity

It seems like it's a more common sentiment among Internet culture (for lack of a better term) than reality. Most atheists or agnostics I've met IRL are a lot more level headed than the Dawkins-worshiping anti-theists that seem to plague sites like reddit, youtube, and 4chan.

I feel like the whole issue is a more of a consequence of rebellious adolescents from Abrahamic upbringings than legitimate care for science though.

[Anonymous No.6503709]

>>6503685
Go outside and talk to stupid people. A lot of them who don't understand science but want to pretend they are smart will say they believe in science and that god is stupid idea.

[Anonymous No.6503734]

>>6503709
>Go outside and talk to stupid people.
Why would I ever do this?

[Anonymous No.6503812]

>>6503160
I used to think the same way, but that was because all I knew was science. Science or the rigorous examination of empirical evidence can never itself be the basis of spiritual or religious thought, and so I was bewildered by scientists, especially scientists who were smarter than me, who were religious. The reason why this confused me was because I assume that since they were very good at science, that that must be the entire foundation of everything they thought, rather than one tool in their philosophy. I've come around to think in those ways as well, but I'm not going to bother explaining it to you. You'll either come around to it one day or you won't, and has nothing to do with how adept you are at logic or science.

[Anonymous No.6503828]

>>6503700
This. I haven't met one anti-theist who didn't have some kind of hardcore religious upbringing. Most of them don't give a damn about science. Science is merely the tool they try to use to bludgeon religion in their acts of rebellion.

[Anonymous No.6503842]

>>6503395
>>>6503160 (OP)

>god decides to give anon a wrench he forgot
>god doesnt decide to help millions of terminally ill kids, child sex slaves, etc

sorry but this doesnt make sense

[Anonymous No.6503850]

>>6503828
I've never seen this kind of thing. Am I not looking in the right places or something?

[Anonymous No.6503855]

>>6503842
God works in mysterious ways :^)))))))))))

[Anonymous No.6503873]

>>6503312
Meh. Humanity could have designed it better. No death for one thing. Far less suffering, less time spent on maintenance and less decay from non-use would be nice too. Maybe bump up everyone's intelligence by an order of magnitude, but it may be more fun to start from little.

I worry that your worship causes you to have undue reverence for the natural state of things, though to be fair that fallacy is hardly confined to the religious.

>>6503351
People are dying and saving each other by the millions, billionaires are giving and failing to give their money to save or aid hundreds of thousands of people, and the universe chose to break the rules of noninvolvement to give you back a $100 toolbox because you didn't ask for payment, in order to inspire you to believe in a higher power?

God is an idiot.

[Anonymous No.6503879]

>>6503873
>Meh
I'm not siding with you one way or the other but please stop doing this.

[Anonymous No.6503889]

They literally have nothing to do with each other. Ignoring all the Biblical shit that's meant to be interpreted anyway, being religious is about humility and faith. Science is analyzing and understanding the world around you. As long as you're not one of those tards who think God actively breaks the laws of physics to perform miracles, there's no conflict. By the way, if God made the universe perfectly, why would He ever want to interfere with it? Shit makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.6503957]

I do see arguments against religions valid but arguments against god or a higher power inevitably get nowhere.

What makes one religion more true then another claiming to be divine. Organized religions reek of human nature and looking at them through a purely historical perspective gives some insight into their creation/development.

[Anonymous No.6503988]

>>6503957
>arguments against god or a higher power inevitably get nowhere.
What about the idea that the only reason people take the notion of God seriously is emotionally based. Take anything else just as abstract and in the domain of the "possible" and most people wouldn't care. Sort of like how people are willing to believe in the after life but don't really care about the possibility of Russel's teapot.

The bias is so obvious that a new question comes about: Why do I even consider the possibility of God to begin with? And I'm not talking about some ontological necessity for some prime mover or any such bullshit, I mean the average Joe's reasons for belief.

[Anonymous No.6504032]

>>6503988
> notion of God seriously is emotionally based
I'm not so sure you can draw that conclusion, i mean people could come to the conclusion that god exists since the universe exists or some other philosophical reason.
What you could say is "notion of god is lacking in proof and is not scientifically based"

>Why do I even consider the possibility of God to begin with?
Consciousness and the ability to be self awareness inherently means to questions ones existence. God gives an answer to these things, that is impossible to find elsewhere.

[Anonymous No.6504065]

>>6504032
I think the point he's trying to make is that belief in God is a seemingly special case of belief without evidence in that it occurs so frequently throughout humanity as opposed to, say, the belief that there a non-interfering three-headed unicorn lives in my garage. This observation might lead one to the conclusion that there is some extra incentive for belief in God, possibly linked with the emotional comfort it brings.

>God gives answers to these things
Not good ones, by my standards.