/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.6273513]

This has probably been asked before, but why wouldn't something like a v-gate generator work to make more energy than what is put into it?
pic related it is a v-gate generator.

[Anonymous No.6273515]

>what is conservation of energy?

[Anonymous No.6273517]

It would if the v-gate generator and every other device like this actually worked. Watch the video your pic is from again. The guy is moving the magnet around with his hands. This is the source of energy for the system. It will not work if the magnet is held stationary. Perpetual motion machines and systems that produce more energy than they consume are not possible.

[Anonymous No.6273518]

Magnets = Miracles

That's the only equation you need here on /sci/.

[Anonymous No.6273521]

>>6273517
Is there any way to make something that is 100% energy efficient?

[Anonymous No.6273523]

>>6273521

Yes, you can collide particles and anti particles. Or you can figure out fusion.

[Anonymous No.6273530]

Why should it work?
Magnets?
Miracles?
Or perhaps...

[Anonymous No.6273771]

>>6273521
Not if you're converting one form of energy into another. Thermodynamics puts strict limits on how efficient any system like that can be, and they're never quite 100%.

[Anonymous No.6273891]

>>6273513

Magnets lose their charge after a while. Also if you look the guy moves his hands away from the generator.

[Anonymous No.6273901]

It's only been a couple of days since we had this thread. You can probably still find it in the catalog.

[Anonymous No.6273909]

>>6273517
>It would if the v-gate generator and every other

Ditto, the motion of the hand is providing movement,..energy. One could probably use muscle wire to move the magnet instead of a hand and see what happens. Solenoids and actuators take too much enrgy to make this device overunity.

[Anonymous No.6276026]

>>6273513
What type of equations would actually be involved in this? like magnetism and motion wise

[Anonymous No.6276030]

>>6273771
Never quite?
More like never more than 66%!

[notOpie No.6278414]

>>6273513
when properly designed these "magnet motors" can work. However they are NOT "free energy" devices. The magnets are de-magnetized to provide the energy these devices utilize.

Watch the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqG-TL0WnjE

the music is annoying but the progression of design is good and the end is a self-starting magnet motor that works without human intervention. The amount of energy that could be extracted in this manor is small and in no case would ever exceed the amount of energy originally needed to magnetize the magnets in the first place.

[Anonymous No.6278450]

>>6278414
It's not getting energy by demagnetizing the magnets, or operating on some such weird principle. This is a simple hoax. There's some hidden motor, like maybe that thing on the bottom is an electromagnet, with a battery concealed in the post.

[Anonymous No.6278490]

>>6276030
The efficiencies can be very high, just not when you're extracting work from a low quality power source, like a relatively small temperature difference (such as that between ambient temperature of roughly 300K and a temperature that can easily be produced by chemical fuels and withstood by ordinary engine materials).

[Anonymous No.6278513]

>>6278450
>>>/out/

[notOpie No.6278522]

>>6278450
I suppose you are one of the deluded people that say "a magnet can do no work". I ask you what does the work when a small piece of steel "jumps" up from the table in defiance of gravity to stick to the magnet suspended above it? A mass moving thru a distance in a period of time.

[Anonymous No.6278530]

>>6278513
I don't know what you're trying to say. The motor can't work as shown without some external energy input. There's nothing in it that would extract power by demagnetizing the magnets, and it's overcoming a considerable amount of friction.

Meanwhile, on this device there are many places to hide a battery and electrical drive system. There could also be a magnetic drive system in the table below.

If this worked, all he would have to do is publish detailed instructions for constructing it and people all over the world would reproduce his results. He'd be immediately famous and would easily be able to turn that into a fortune. Instead, he's acting like a typical hoaxster.

[Anonymous No.6278553]

>>6278522
>I suppose you are one of the deluded people that say "a magnet can do no work".
I suppose you are one of the deluded people that say "a strawman argument is as good as a logically sound one".

Of course magnets can do work. That's how all electric motors operate, you simpleton.

>a small piece of steel "jumps" up from the table in defiance of gravity to stick to the magnet suspended above it
There is potential energy between the steel and the magnet. It is expended when the steel "jumps", converted to sound and heat when the steel flies through the air and collides with the magnet, and recharged when you pull the steel away from the magnet again.

There's no way to get the recharge step without paying the energy back into the system that was lost to friction and impact.

[notOpie No.6278682]

>>6278553
>Of course magnets can do work.
ah... then why do you say
>It's not getting energy by demagnetizing the magnets, or operating on some such weird principle. This is a simple hoax. There's some hidden motor, like maybe that thing on the bottom is an electromagnet, with a battery concealed in the post.

???

[Anonymous No.6278716]

>>6278682
Because I've looked at the device. It's not demagnetizing magnets (which is possible in theory, but complicated and would yield vanishingly little energy output -- there's no mechanism present to do that, and it's overcoming more friction than getting energy by demagnetizing the magnets could pay for), and it could only operate through one incomplete revolution on the potential energy of having the driver piece at one point on the circle.

You can see in the earlier version that he's driving it around in a circle by moving the driver piece in and out by hand. That's the power source that drives the rotation. And in the final version, as presented, the rotation is pushing the driver piece through an energy-wasting high-friction interface, but it's not slowing down as it operates through many rotations.

If you take it at face value, this is equivalent to driving an electrical generator with an electrical motor. The energy output is connected back to the energy input. Energy has to come from somewhere to overcome the resistance/friction, so it should be slowing down.

Since it's not slowing down, there is necessarily another input of energy. Since he has concealed it, it is a hoax.

Magnets can only do the work available from the potential energy of their separation from what they attract or nearness to what they repel (or similar systems). Once it is spent, they can't do more work until the potential energy is recharged.

Any force can do work. That's what makes something a force. That doesn't mean that anything which exerts a force is a limitless supply of free energy.

[notOpie No.6278783]

>>6278716
>Since it's not slowing down, there is necessarily another input of energy
yup
The magnets. you can build the device easily for yourself and find that it does indeed rotate by itself without slowing down.

Yes the energy has to come from somewhere and you've named it yourself,

>demagnetizing magnets (which is possible in theory, but complicated and would yield vanishingly little energy output -- there's no mechanism present to do that, and it's overcoming more friction than getting energy by demagnetizing the magnets could pay for)

You say it's possible to exctract the energy from a magnet, but when you see the device you deny it can work that way?

>That doesn't mean that anything which exerts a force is a limitless supply of free energy.
I never claimed it was or did.

[notOpie No.6278795]

>>6278716
>would yield vanishingly little energy output
that is why the speed of the device is so slow, just barely enough to overcome the friction of the bearings and the air friction.

[Anonymous No.6278794]

>>6278530
>this entire text
Just because something is doable in hand gives no direct implication that it is scalable. It is surely possible that solar energy could charge magnets, but the materials would obviously be more expensive than just making the solar cells.

>Detailed instructions
It's really quite simple.

>>6278553
>>6278716

>>>6278783

[Anonymous No.6278801]

>>6273523
we are working on fusion, and its pretty leggit.

[Anonymous No.6278925]

>>6273521
Yep, a heater (at time infinity). Useful work, probably not.

[Anonymous No.6278945]

>>6278795
The amount of energy needed to overcome friction and keep it spinning at a constant speed for that long is not the "vanishingly little" I was referring to.

This is not some kind of demagnetization engine. That's not what the maker claims it is, that's not what the video title calls it, it's just some guess by idiots in the youtube comments. A demagnetization engine is not any more plausible for this specific demonstration than a perpetual motion machine is.

>>6278794
>Just because something is doable in hand gives no direct implication that it is scalable.
It doesn't matter whether it's scalable. Even if he could only demonstrate it as a curiosity, it would be enough to make him famous enough to easily get rich.

The reason it's on an obscure youtube video rather than all over the global news is that it's lame little free energy hoax, like thousands of others.

This would be a major discovery if it was real. It would be really easy to fake this. Put two and two together.

[Anonymous No.6278947]

>>6276030
I work with high-efficiency Solid Oxide Fuel Cells. We have achieved efficiencies of up to 79%. Of course they have a bunch of other problems, but they got dat efficiency.

[Anonymous No.6279022]

What would it take to drill into people's minds that mangets are not magical free energy generators?

[notOpie No.6279374]

>>6278945
>"vanishingly little"
ever see a "Crookes radiometer"? If you want to talk about "vanishingly little" amounts of energy causing motion.

[Anonymous No.6279401]

>>6279022
Maybe use magnets?

[Anonymous No.6279794]

>>6278945
Magnets can do work, as is pictured and demonstrated.

http://youtu.be/CpsYuLY14ws

[Anonymous No.6279801]

>>6279022
>>6278450
>implying

>>6279794

[Anonymous No.6280133]

>>6273515
>hurr energy can't be created or destroyed so this doesn't work
It's one thing to be right, it's another thing to answer the question.

[Anonymous No.6280135]

>>6273523
You're a stupid faggot.

[Anonymous No.6280155]

>>6279794
>magnetic shield

wow big surprise you are an idiot.

[Anonymous No.6280159]

>>6279794
Magnets that do work become demagnetized. Batteries can do work too, ya know

[Anonymous No.6280168]

>>6280159
>magnets that do work become demagnetized

wow. wrong on two counts simultaneously. these threads are a treasure trove of scientific ignorance.

[Anonymous No.6280173]

>>6280168
>magnets don't become demagnetized

wow, um, go back to school?

[Anonymous No.6280181]

>>6280173
>go back to school

Says the faggot who thinks magnets can do work, ever.

[Anonymous No.6280192]

>>6280173
wtf, retard. from wiki:

Demagnetizing ferromagnets

Magnetized ferromagnetic materials can be demagnetized (or degaussed) in the following ways:
Heating a magnet past its Curie temperature; the molecular motion destroys the alignment of the magnetic domains. This always removes all magnetization.
Placing the magnet in an alternating magnetic field with intensity above the material's coercivity and then either slowly drawing the magnet out or slowly decreasing the magnetic field to zero. This is the principle used in commercial demagnetizers to demagnetize tools and erase credit cards and hard disks and degaussing coils used to demagnetize CRTs.
Some demagnetization or reverse magnetization will occur if any part of the magnet is subjected to a reverse field above the magnetic material's coercivity.
Demagnetisation progressively occurs if the magnet is subjected to cyclic fields sufficient to move the magnet away from the linear part on the second quadrant of the B-H curve of the magnetic material (the demagnetisation curve).
Hammering or jarring: the mechanical disturbance tends to randomize the magnetic domains. This will leave some residual magnetization.

Look at that. 'doing work' isnt on the list. even if the magnet is in a system that provides the work energy, the magnet isnt necessarily demagnetized.

You are a douche.

[Anonymous No.6280227]

>>6280192
>Demagnetisation progressively occurs if the magnet is subjected to cyclic fields...yadiyada
What is the law of reciprocal action?

[Anonymous No.6280244]

If you can overcome the "gate" with less energy than is generated by the magnets you can have overunity. This is harder to accomplish than it seems. Solenoids and actuators will eat up much more than whatever is generated since this small model will not generate enough output electrical power. It could be a different story if scaled up.

There are artificial muscle wire which can be used to overcome the gate by moving the stator. These should take less energy. Only experimentation can provide a conclusive result.

[Anonymous No.6280304]

>>6280159
That is none to say that plenty of power can be output from the take-off in the example.

Plus, that's the whole idea - magnetic shields.

[Anonymous No.6280328]

>>6279794
Jesus fucking christ, you simple minded fuck.
It has already been fucking stated that magnets can do work, hence why we fucking use them today.
That machine you have as a gif only works to sustain itself, and nothing more. Once work is APPLIED TO IT, the motor will slow down and ultimately stop working

Gawd these plebs on /sci/ are fucking stupid.
Stop lurking on /sci/ and fucking go to college for engineering or physics. You learn the fundamentals all this.

[Anonymous No.6280355]

>>6276026
Fairly trivial.

If you want exact expressions, just maxwell's equations (with some hystersis model for your ferromagnets) and rigid body mechanics.

Although to be fair, rigid body mechanics in conjunction with dipole approximations for the magnets and a simple circuit model for the electrical components will probably be more than accurate enough.