/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.6186353]

Greetings, /sci/.

My young Earth creationist grandmother got me to read some of her literature. Basically it asks the reader if he/she think it reasonable that the universe created itself.

By that reasoning, how did God create himself? Or how did whatever made God create itself?

Anyway I'm not bright enough to think of an argument that she can't poke holes in at all. I need it watertight. I want her to either change her views (unlikely) or never bother me with her creationist shit again. For this I come to you.

[Anonymous No.6186364]

>>6186353
hey man, maybe you should just let her be happy with the idea that gives her the biggest sense of worth and feels the most like truth to her. i get she's a fundamentalist and what not so she's probably harping on you all the time or something. but seriously man, just don't worry about it. both of you will never change your mind so why argue?

[Anonymous No.6186366]

Great post OP.
Too bad you posted in the wrong board.

[Anonymous No.6186386]

Why would you bother arguing with her? What difference does it make to you or anyone else what she believes?

[Anonymous No.6186388]

You obviously show a poor understanding of yours and her beliefs. I suggest you study more and come back to her when you can adequately articulate the major arguments that are common knowledge to anyone who studies theology.

Also, you will never convince her, religious people like that are fanatical an aspect that is core to their whole worldview is that "faith" is the end all be all of anything. Evidence, science, or reason will have zero effect, no matter how convincing, they are simply deluded.

[Anonymous No.6186411]

>>6186388

This is pretty much it. Hardcore creationists just aren't going to listen to any reason or accept any evidence. If she were on the fence it would be different, but for an elderly person who thinks the universe is a few thousand years old? Maybe just try to agree to disagree.

I recommend the book "Finding Darwin's God," by Ken Miller. Miller is a devout Christian and a biologist. He not only refutes Young Earth Creationism in this book, but he explains how accepting science does not have to interfere with religious faith.

I'm not a believer, but it's still a respectable position. At least a lot more respectable than whatever Creationist garbage your grandmother is reading.

Christmas gift idea, maybe?

[Anonymous No.6186417]

>>6186353
The thing is, even if something is reasonable, that doesn't mean it's true, and bigger claims usually reduce the chance of the two being equal.
We are talking about the creation of the fucking universe, possibly the greatest claim you can make, how can she consider being reasonable as a good argument(in the ipothesis that a creator it's actually reasonable)?
We just don't fucking know, that's it, and introducing a greater explaination like god, just makes things more complicated, because if you claim nothing created god, then why don't just claim that nothing created the universe?

[Anonymous No.6186478]

You want to crumble your mother's life and belief because you can't bother to go along with her for a bit? You might not understand this, but religion is not different from science in the aspect of helping people maintain their base of knowledge and belief in this life.
If now you can prove that she is wrong (assume that you can, but actually you won't) and has lived wrongly because of putting her belief in the wrong place, what should she do now when she realize her whole life is a lie and she could have lived different?
The rest is only regret and depression, and old people doesn't have time to switch their beliefs anymore so she will might end up living in regrets for the rest of her life.
Believe me or not, I am not exaggerating this.

[Anonymous No.6186552]

>>6186478

It sounds more like she's the one pushing her beliefs on OP.

And no, religion and science are not on equal levels. No amount of "You can't prove nuthin" will make that so. Science may not have all the answers, but it's better than religion, which simply makes them up.

It's better to be wrong some of the time but attempt to correct that than just be happy pretending you have all the answers

[Anonymous No.6186628]

"People can just believe what they want"

I hear this argument all the time, this is what I think of every time, why do I care? Even tho most people dont think at this scale. But listening to the great minds in science, I fully believe that Our future lies in science, it can destroy us or we can go to god send heights and make ourselves eternal in the stars from which we came from. Religion and non-scientific beliefs hold us back.

[Anonymous No.6186669]

>>6186353
>By that reasoning, how did God create himself? Or how did whatever made God create itself?

God does not have to be created. That's part of the notion of God. It's kind like a limit (say a limit number in set theory, which does not have a predecessor).

[Anonymous No.6186671]

>>6186628
>Religion and non-scientific beliefs hold us back.

As does flowery sci-fi dogma like 'we can go to god send heights and make ourselves eternal in the stars from which we came from'.

Not to mention your disgusting collectivism.

[Anonymous No.6186685]

God is what is and what isn't
God exists outside of human existence and human comprehension he's kind of like the support behind all other forms of Existence,
According to Logic all things must have a source and something to put them into Existence this includes not only All Material and Dimensional things such as Air and Us and even how were able to comprehend that we can recognize this, but things like Time and Space and theoretically Inifinite quantities must also have a source and sources like this support humans so technically humans can't create them this right there signifies that somethings above humans as humans are already limited by Limitations that weren't created by ourselves

[Anonymous No.6186694]

Science has to have faith to or else Science is blind and if it were Blind it wouldn't Be Science as Science is basically Opening the eyes of others to the facts.
Think of like a Pyramid and everything under the Pyramid ( Civilization, Humanity, People, Moral vallues, Laws of physics and Science, and everything else ) Goes under the pyramid and God is the very pinnacle the very tip of the spinner that's holding everything else in place.

[Anonymous No.6186700]

"As does flowery sci-fi dogma " and how does that hold us back? Flowery and dramatic but all true.Pop-sci or not, if
you can get people to believe in a real noble cause, you can change their thinking and life. You must not dream..

[Anonymous No.6186703]

>>6186700
>You must not dream

That's exactly what you're doing.

[Anonymous No.6186702]

God dosen't have Limits because He's the Limiter ( if that makes any sense to you ) He's the Limiter of all things but at the same time he exists outside of his own Limitations, he kind of draws a circle around himself and he's at the center of it all watching it all he's the Ultimate Orchestrator he's the Hand behind the Instrument and the Instrument is his and we are all just the tools
God sets the Limitations because he needs Limitations for Himself

[Anonymous No.6186717]

"then they should be made to listen"

[Anonymous No.6186723]

>>6186353
>Give me sentences to parrot
Ebin

[Anonymous No.6186730]

So does OP want us to come up with proof of the universe coming out of nothing or what?

[Anonymous No.6186762]

>converting your old grandmother to take all hope for an afterlife from her before she dies
You're an asshole. Just swallow your pride and let her believe whatever she wants.

[Anonymous No.6186782]

>>6186685

In other words: Magic

[Anonymous No.6186789]

>>6186702

You're going to go blind from all of that mental jerking off.

[Violent Simians Guy No.6186949]

>>6186353
> Basically it asks the reader if he/she think it reasonable that the universe created itself.

That's why I can't stand the religious morons. Their logical ability is pretty much crippled.

The speed of light as a material limit, isn't reasonable. BUT IT'S STILL HOW IT IS.

The origination of the universe is simply unknown and will remain so. As our universe is obviously a singularity, information can't pass the interface. So we collect evidence on events from inside the universe. And guess what we've found? ZERO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING CREATION-ESQUE HERE.

So it just doesn't matter. The logical conclusion is that "creation" is an irrelevancy. That's why I use the term "origination".

[Anonymous No.6186961]

>>6186353
It's a shame people can't read.

[Anonymous No.6186966]

>>6186762
Why do you care about how she feels before she dies? I suppose you'd like her to be on opium all day.
>inb4 virgin

[Anonymous No.6186993]

>HAHA WOW YOU'RE SO RETARDED THERES NO GOD GRANDMA HAHA IN YOUR FACE WHO GOT TOLD? YOU GOT TOLD GRANDMA?

And then you just list a bunch of movie and video game titles with the world "told" spliced in over and over until she cries

[Anonymous No.6187000]

>>6186993
Fuck off back to reddit you drooling retard.

[Anonymous No.6187126]

Will we ever time travel?

Have we time traveled before?

Are there any time-travelers on /sci/ that would like their share their experiences?