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/sci/ - Science & Math

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6141627 No.6141627 [Reply] [Original]

"A second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom."

Time has always been the relationship between moving things in the physical world, as a relationship it is an abstraction with no physical meaning in itself. Only human consciousness can arrange perceptions in terms of past and future. The physical world is always at NOW. So why do people speak of such nonsense as "time dilation" and "going back in time"? That would suggest that there is some machine recording all the physical parameters as they were in the past that could somehow reset those parameters.

>> No.6141674

>>6141627
>>>/b/

>> No.6141680

>>6141674
What didn't you understand? I'll try to explain it as I would to a 5 yo child.

>> No.6141686

>some machine
AKA all particles not in constant acceleration towards a black whole.
>could somehow reset
This is not necessarily true and is not suggested by any of your observations. However, it is clear that all reactions can be done in either direction with enough energy.

>> No.6141697

>>6141686
>AKA all particles not in constant acceleration towards a black whole.
Yes? Where is all of their past parameters(speed, position, etc.) stored?

>> No.6141698

Going back in time doesn't work, so there is no problem. Is that it?

>> No.6141700

>>6141627
>moving things

Give me a definition of motion that doesn't involve time.

>> No.6141707

>>6141700
Things move whether you relate that motion to other motions or not.

>> No.6141718

>>6141707

motion is change in postion over time
time is an irreducible primitive, you cannot explain it away

>> No.6141722

>>6141718
motion is change in position over other motion as shown by the definition at the beginning of the thread. The concept of time is redundant and doesn't correspond to any physical reality.

>> No.6141730

>>6141722

you're defining motion with motion

>> No.6141736

>>6141730
That's because motion is motion. It moves.

>> No.6141740

>>6141736

Go take your thorazine.

>> No.6141742

>>6141740
Let's make it simple. Show me time in physical reality that is not described through "motion" and "space", two things that actually exist. You can't, thus it's a redundant concept.

>> No.6141746

>>6141736
Your suggestion adds nothing and removes a lot. Fuck off you idiot.

>> No.6141776

>>6141700
Motion = final position minus initial position.
You're welcome.

>> No.6141778

>>6141776
that's displacement you cunt

>> No.6141783

>>6141627
I dont browse /sci/ alot and ive never seen a troll here but i can finally cross that off my list.

>> No.6141792

>>6141783
Joke's on you, you're the one who can't distinguish subjective human experience from objective physical reality. Do things need to be allowed to move by a human abstraction? No, things move, that's all.

>> No.6141795

>>6141783
>never seen a troll here
You must be extremely lucky or extremely naive.

>> No.6141805

>>6141792
we dont expirience everything at once do we? everything in the universe is not happening all at once, there is a tangible difference in what has happened and what is happening, it has been described in math and observed (inb4 "but its just us observing it!").
>>6141795
I dont come on often and probably dont pay attention.

>> No.6141813

>>6141805
90% of threads on /sci/ are only there to try and get responses. The rest are homework threads or complaining about /sci/.

Which boards are you on? Most are like this, it's exceptional to have a board with quality topics. The whole thing with 4chan is shifting through shit to find the diamonds.

>> No.6141820

>>6141813
I dont look at responses, just pictures.

>> No.6141824

>>6141820
>just pictures
Well, I guess it is an imageboard... but most of the images here are memes or reaction images, which are just bad in-jokes. /wg/ is better for just good images. Heck, /tg/ concept art threads.

4chan is a terrible site in general, though. You should probably stop visiting it

>> No.6141843

>>6141813
/tg/'s my main board. About 10% of it is usually quality topics. Usually only about 1 or 2 troll threads up at any one time, and sometimes there are none.

>> No.6141847

>>6141776
>implying time isn't required to determine the qualifications "initial" and "final"

>> No.6141848

>>6141824
eh better than stressin bout cnc coding

>> No.6141860

>>6141805
>There is a tangible difference in what has happened and what is happening
Yes, in physical reality "what has happened" does not exist. only what is happening exists.
You can compare what is happening with images in memory structures if you want, but that's not physical reality's problem.

>> No.6141867

>>6141843
Good choice. I basically go on here for /his/, which is scattered around /tg/ and /int/. /int/ has a kind of naive charm that makes me sometimes post in other topics but other than that I don't do much.

>>6141848
Engineering huh? Good luck, do assignments as early as possible instead leaving them till the last minute.

>> No.6141871

>>6141860
if we had a computer powerful enough, and sensors powerful enough we could detect all things and all the energy and using math we could trace the origins of every particle and wave back in time to the big bang. energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed in form, energy is information, information of the past, the past is something that happened and is tangible

>> No.6141874

>>6141776
>final
>initial

That's referencing time.

>> No.6141876

>>6141867
Machining actually (less fancy than engineering) but only not engineering because no monies to go to uni and i didnt want to bury myself in debt.

>> No.6141895

Anthropic principle. Time is a method of seeing. Seeing what's been here all along.

>> No.6141952

>>6141697
You're not getting it. The "machine" you mention is an observer. All particles that haven't permanently lost all information are observers.

They all "store" their own information, but wave-particle duality means that there's uncertainty in how accurate ALL of this information is that we measure.

>> No.6141957

>>6141871
Maybe the past is something tangible to your human intellect and subjective experience but your calculations would change nothing in objective physical reality.

>> No.6141981

>>6141957
the calculations describe the physical state of things. information is retained physically by everything, If i throw an apple and 3 seconds later it lands, with enough information, you can trace that apple back to what had happened when i threw it, and before i threw it, and all the way back to the big bang. Time and space are one in the same but still represented differently. when something changes position, it also changes time at a rate.

>> No.6142022
File: 115 KB, 592x497, Lorentz.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6142022

>>6141981
Motion changes an abstraction? How about it changes the physical components through which the abstraction is defined instead. That motion has an underlying order to it does not add any need of 'time' to physical reality. Only humans need time to extrapolate their understanding taking place in the NOW.

>> No.6142222

time is the 4th dimensional quantity whose positive unit vector is in the direction of increasing entropy.

>> No.6142232

Why is a second such a round about number? Couldn't they just simplify it and make it powers of ten? Sorry I am not very smart and I don't know the original definition of a second but this seems silly to me, the same with basing the meter off of the size of the earth instead of some fundamental partial.

>> No.6142247

>>6142232
they defined a meter, then they found a constant to compare a meter to, then they defined the meter by that constant. i.e. a meter was some arbitrary unit, light is a constant speed, so a meter is how far light travels in 1/299792458 seconds. Same thing with a second. It was the period that a pendulum swings of length x in earth gravity, but then they found the cesium atom thing (which was far more constant) and they redefined the second.

>> No.6142257

Then why does time dilation happen

>> No.6142279

>>6142257
It doesn't. That's a nonphysical interpretation of Lorentz formulas.
>>6142022

>> No.6142289

>>6142279
Then explain these results

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment

>> No.6142292
File: 11 KB, 239x239, 1288758643306.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6142292

>>6142022
listen you fag

standing still in space ≡ standing still in time
moving in space ≡ moving in time

it's the same fucking thing, the same way you are advocating time is only a human construct, we could advocate that space is only a human construct, do you not see it in your OWN argument???

jesus chist yes i mad 10/10

>> No.6142302
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6142302

>philosophers posting on /sci/

>> No.6142305

>>6142292
You can stand still in space while moving through time

>> No.6142310

>>6142305
Ah, but you're still moving relative to most of the rest of the universe.

If the entire universe was standing still, at absolute zero, would time still pass?

How would you tell?

>> No.6142311

>>6142305
>you can stand still in space
troll harder m80

>> No.6142315

>>6142310
>you're moving relative to the rest of the universe
No, the universe is moving relative to you. You stay still.

>> No.6142326

>>6142315
what exactly are you trying to argue here?

there is only one reality - time, space, energy, etc are just tools that we use do describe it. different ways of viewing the same thing

Arguing that "time doesn't exist" is like arguing that images on your computer screen don't exist because it's really just a bunch of pixels

>> No.6142342
File: 559 KB, 704x528, vlcsnap-2013-01-29-03h26m58s230.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6142342

>>6142289
Looks like my work here is done

>> No.6142363

>>6142289
The formulas are the same, Einstein copied all his formulas from Lorentz, he just gave them a phantasmic nonphysical meaning.

>>6142292
Space is the framework in which physical objects exist, it will still be there whether you aware of it or not. "Past" and "Future" have no objective existence in the physical world.

>> No.6142374

>>6142363
What does that have to do with anything? Explain the results of the experiment

>> No.6142449

>>6142374
Applying time dilation or length contraction will give the same result, but only the length contraction interpretation is physically meaningful e.g. "Heavy ions that are spherical when at rest assume the form of "pancakes" or flat disks when traveling nearly at the speed of light. And in fact, the results obtained from particle collisions can only be explained, when the increased nucleon density due to length contraction is considered."