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/sci/ - Science & Math

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File: 36 KB, 436x180, P_Fluoride_Water.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5947877 No.5947877 [Reply] [Original]

Drinking 64 oz's of fluid a day is recommended.
Thats about 2 liters

The first paragraph of wikipedia on water fluoridation tells me fluoride can be as high as 1.0 mg/L (milligrams per liter) in water.

That gives means drinking your 2 liters of water a day can give you 2 milligrams of fluoride a day (this isn't accounting for tooth-paste and the added fluoride of any food cooked in water)

Just glancing over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity has a study that suggests 2 milligrams of fluoride has been found to weaken bones. Other studies mention lower IQ can occur if you ingest 2 milligrams a day

Am I over-looking something are are is fluoride in drinking water a very bad idea.

>> No.5947878

>>5947877
>Drinking 64 oz's of fluid a day is recommended.
>Thats about 2 liters
your recommended water intake includes the water in food. common mistake - people interpret it to mean that you need to drink that amount of water.

>> No.5947879

>>5947878
e.g. if you're eating a lot of veggies, which are full of water, you would then find yourself struggling to drink 1 liter. unless of course you're doing a lot of physical activity.

>> No.5947880

>>5947878
that still doesnt address that 2 liters of pure water a day contains dangerous levels of fluoride

furthermore most water has fluoride in it (so the water you get from food may also count towards your fluoride intake) even if it didn't drinking 2 liters of pure water a day is entirly possible for certain people

>> No.5947881

>>5947877
Fluoride is definitely poisonous. Usually, though, water companies claim that fluoride levels are low enough to drink water safely.

If your worried about it, I'm sure that there are filters available to deal with it. If they're not too spendy. Also, you could probably get your water tested for dissolved fluorine.

>> No.5947883

Just drink enough so your pee is barely yellow

>> No.5947885

>>5947880
you're not taking ratios into account. it's meaninglessly small amounts.

>> No.5947889

>>5947885
how so?
2 mg of fluoride a day is harmful and its very possible to end up drinking that much just from tap water

>> No.5947890

>>5947881
why the hell is it in the water in the first place?

>> No.5947891

>>5947890
are you serious?

>> No.5947897

The vast majority of studies into the subject (miraculously, ~0 US based studies exist AT ALL) suggest that it's harmful to IQ at levels as low as 1 part per million. Sure, you can claim that they are "foreign" and therefore not "real science," but even neuroscience journals like Neurologia have reached the same conclusion, that 1ppm of fluoride in the water is harmful long term, but that the symptoms take ~20 years to appear, additionally, most of the research suggests that if you are already an adult, it's less harmful, but if you are a fetus or a child, the harm is magnified.

As is demonstrated by the widespread nature and acceptance of asbestos which lasted for decades, it takes a long time for science to influence public policy because of special interest groups, and as such, water fluoridation continues to be widespread throughout the US, and US funded studies into this subject are non existent. The vast majority of the research into this subject since 1990 has suggested that it's harmful, but the US based research into this subject is miraculously non-existent, and so none of it is taken seriously by US policymakers.

Ultimately, the argument comes down to whether or not a population-wide drop of ~7 IQ points is worth the improvements to dental hygiene that fluoridation offers the poor. Some argue that it is a necessary sacrifice, others argue that it is inhumane.

There is a lot of political influence on this subject, to the point that when Harvard did a meta analysis of a lot of the research into this subject and initially concluded that it was harmful to IQ with a high degree of certainty, months later was forced to retract and specifically state that their conclusions "should not affect US policy." Their retraction went so far as to openly lie about the content of their meta-analysis and claim that most of the studies they looked at were above EPA water fluoridation standards, this retraction was factually incorrect because when you look (continued)

>> No.5947898

>>5947890
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Goal
>>5947897
A population-wide drop would not decrease the average IQ. If the average changes the IQ will simply be adjusted so that the average is still at 100.

>> No.5947899

>>5947897
at the studies in their meta analysis (listed in a chart) the vast majority of them were within the EPA's 4.0 ppm limit, and almost all of them concluded IQ loss (in children) with ~95%+ confidence thresholds.

This is a direct quote of their initial conclusion before politically motivated retraction (a la Galileo):

“Fluoride seems to fit in with lead, mercury, and other poisons that cause chemical brain drain,” Grandjean says. “The effect of each toxicant may seem small, but the combined damage on a population scale can be serious, especially because the brain power of the next generation is crucial to all of us.”

You can view the meta analysis in PDF format here:
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ehp.1104912.pdf

And verify this for yourself. The retraction is suspicious specifically because it claims that most of the studies were not within the bounds of US water fluoridation, but on actually checking the studies they looked at, the vast majority were within those bounds, and still had the same conclusion that it was harmful to IQ.

>> No.5947901

>>5947898
>population-wide drop

The whole of the population is not exposed to water fluoridation in the studies analyzed. Control groups are included. Your misleading post is poor form, at the end of the day the average intelligence of exposed populations drops.

>> No.5947902

>>5947897
>Ultimately, the argument comes down to whether or not a population-wide drop of ~7 IQ points

So a bunch of 107s become 100s and a bunch of 87s become 80s and 130s remain 123s? Who gives a shit?

>> No.5947904

>>5947902
That's not actually what a drop of 7 points in a population means though, it means that there are more retarded people and substantially less highly intelligent people. It does not mean that everyone just loses 7 points.

>> No.5947914

>>5947904
I'm still asking what does it matter if that happens? It's not taking potentially brilliant people and tuning them into barely functioning retards. Slightly more people will be slightly dumber, so what? How many of them use their full abilities anyway?

>> No.5947915

>>5947899
>the government keeping the people dumb

it all makes sense now

>> No.5947917

>>5947914
if someone is going to dump poisen into your beaverages, tooth-paste, and all foods prepared with water, and its found that this poisen makes you dumber.

you don't think theres something wrong with that?

>> No.5947922

You have to balance any possible flouride poisoning against tooth decay.

In any population without flouride a few more people are going to become ill or die from Ludwig Angina, or Cavernous Sinus Thrombosis, both complications of dental caries, as well as the more minor problems it imposes.

>> No.5947924

>>5947922
shouldnt the choice be up to the individual?

remove fluoride from the water and if people want to feed their children poisen to give them better teeth they can buy it themself

>> No.5947927

Flouride is perfectly fine for you. There isn't some big conspiracy to dumb everyone down by contaminating drinking water.

>>>/pol/
>>>/x/

>> No.5947928

>>5947924
Some things are best done as a group. Deal with it, lonely fag.

>> No.5947930

>>5947928
The irony is, USA, because it has shit tier public health care, has the most to benefit from flouridation.

>> No.5947935

Jokes on you guys all I drink is pepsi. Must be why I've never broken a bone and am super smart.

>> No.5947943

>>5947935
>all he wanted was a Pepsi
>just a Pepsi

>> No.5947973

>>5947935
>Must be why I've never broken a bone
No, thats because you are too fat to move.
>and am super smart.
Every basement dweller thinks of himself.

>> No.5947986

Drinking water that contains 2 mg of F does not mean your body accumulates 2 mg of F.

>> No.5948084
File: 20 KB, 460x276, 1375485798735.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5948084

>>5947880
>dangerous levels of fluoride
Go breathe some fluorine, and we'll talk about dangerous

>> No.5948125

>>5947917

>beaverages
>poisen

IT'S HAPPENING!!!

QUICKLY MEN! READY YOUR HARPOONS AND THONGS, WE'RE GOING HUNTING

>> No.5948141

>>5948125
beaverages... is that like beaver cleavage?

>> No.5948144

question, is pseudo science and quackery like the bullshit op is spewing bannable?
this is a board for science & math.

>> No.5948511

>>5947889
diluted with 2 liters of water..

>> No.5950224

>>5947973
I have confirmed my exceptionally high intelligence with multiple online IQ tests.

>> No.5950279

>>5947878
But Anon, I'm literally a 6ft 300lb neckeard. I'm trying to lose weight now but in order to stay hydrated, I usually find myself drinking at least 3 liters of water every day. You can expect somewhere between 3.5 - 4.5 liters.

Now I'm somewhat concerned. I mean, how is a Man my size supposed to stay hydrated from my exercise if drinking all this water is actually weakening my bones? It's like, the moment you allow yourself to get this big, you're fucked anyway.

>> No.5950534
File: 100 KB, 1284x535, fluoridepapers.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5950534

>>5947880
Typical concentration of NaF in tap water in the US is about 0.7 mg/L

Two liters is 1.4 mg. Toxic effects of NaF don't start kicking in until you get to ingesting doses on the order of around 400-500 mg.


I suggest you take one of the following actions OP:

a. Try researching fluoride from less biased sources than fluorideispoison.net or thefedisbrainwashingus.com. Try looking up research on fluoridation and its effects from credible medical journals like the JAP. This image includes some links to real research papers and summaries of the research, papers like this would be a good place to start... or
b. Go back to /pox/

>> No.5950547

>>5947897
Since you're quoting that 7 IQ points figure a lot I'll assume you're getting your information from the Choi metastudy (or at least some infographic or copypasta from /pol/ or /x/ that got it's facts from skimming the Choi metastudy)


Ignoring how much of the Choi paper was discredited and the fact that all of the papers the metastudy reviewed were from China (where water contamination by fluoride, arsenic, and carcinogens are all orders of magnitude higher than in the US) - the typical margin of error on standardized IQ tests is 15-20 points, so what you're arguing is akin to arguing that:
Heads - 51% +/- 5%
Tails - 49% +/- 5%
shows an overwhelming majority of coin flips yield heads

>> No.5950594

>>5950534
>>5950547
Fed must be getting pretty desperate to be paying idiots like you to shill for them

>> No.5950609

>>5950594
>someone argues an alternative opinion on a topic
>shill

Sure must be easy to feel like you win arguments when you just automatically disregard anyone who disagrees with you.

>> No.5950615

>>5950594
Yeah, better pay some agents to post lies on /sci/ to dupe the one guy there who doesn't believe it.

>> No.5950637
File: 91 KB, 640x384, 1374972928088.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5950637

>> No.5950725

>>5950609
>>5950615

>/pol/ actually believes that boogymen organizations are out to force them to change their opinions
>implying they wouldn't just mine data and see what sort of flags pop up to stop threats

>> No.5950744

It's why I drink only distilled mineral water OP.

>> No.5950777

>>5950744
I need to start doing that, or get some vapor distiller.

>> No.5950874

>>5950777
Have fun paying over 1000x more for water dumbass.

>> No.5950880

>>5950874
1000x0=0

i dont think this is the board for you

>> No.5950890

>>5950880
Oh, tap water is free now? News to me.

>> No.5950893

>>5950890
the water is free, you pay for the tax, labor of putting the water system together, and upkeep

>> No.5950907

>>5950893
Stop being such a pedantic asshole.

>> No.5950930

>>5950534
your copy-paste deals with the affects of fluoride on the pineal gland. I dont see how thats relevant because no one has mentioned it

I told you the wikipedia article that I got my sources (http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11571#toc)) from but I guess you didn't read that and assume because I'm criticizing fluoride I must be some insane conspiracy buff. Another annon gave you fucking paper from harvard.

The idea of water being poisened isn't some crazy unbeleivable idea. It used to be that all houses were made with poisen (lead based paint and absestos) because the affects of certain chemicals wern't fully understood (or they were understood but no one wanted to listen to crazy people saying that everything is poisened)

If you truely believe that the negative side affects of fluoride don't occur until 400+ milligrams than why don't you as an experiment ingest say 10-50 mg every day. Record yourself doing this and report on your health. If you could do this for a few years and still be perfectly fine you would end be able to easily end the debate.

>> No.5950929

>>5950880
I think it's pretty cool that it consumes 0 energy whatsoever.

Oh wait.

>> No.5951103

>>5950930
>poisened
It's "Poisoned"

>> No.5951109

>>5950930
I don't need to, someone already did.

A study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology involved subjects taking ~10 mg NaF supplements every day for 4-5 weeks

There were no observed negative repercussions and the subjects were able to fully excrete all of the excess fluoride in their system within a week or so after stopping the supplements.

>> No.5951244

>>5951109
link please

>> No.5951905
File: 19 KB, 493x335, Skin-Burn-Treatment1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5951905

>>5951244

>> No.5951910
File: 33 KB, 201x288, sagan.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5951910

>>5951244
Sounds like he's referring to the paper 'Excretion of retained fluoride in man' by Spencer

Don't have a link handy but you can probably find it easy enough.

>> No.5951939

>>5947943
>and she wouldn't give it to me

by far the highest quality post ITT

>> No.5951988

you americans are fucked

>> No.5952274

>>5947943
>>5951939
you're on drugs!

anyway, third world country here, my sister works as a teacher in a remote part where water doesn't have fluoride and says the children's thees are shit, it fucking shows.

>> No.5952319

>>5952274
most of the studies that have actually been done on fluoride and teeth show that it contributes none-very little to dental health (the origenal study that associated the link is flawed and removed samples that didn't support it's point).

people in third world countries have bad health for a myriad of reasons. Fluoride in the water is probably one of the least signficant

>> No.5952375

>>5950637
Image with a quote, my primary source of scientific information.

>> No.5952393

>>5947897
population wide implies newborns included on the average test, base iq is what? 3? what happens then 3-7=-4 son

>> No.5952402

OP misread the page. Those studies looked at mg/L, not mg/day.

>> No.5952404

>>5952274
Obviously nothing to do with not having toothbrushes

>> No.5952419

>poisen
>theres
>unbeleivable
I'm sorry but did Mr. Fluoride get to you? It's too consistent to be grammatical and spelling error. Oh the irony of it all!

>> No.5952426

>>5950725
>Not knowing /pol/ has proved multiple organisations post on 4chan

>> No.5952429
File: 117 KB, 530x426, 1374681283549.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5952429

>>5950725
>actually believes that boogymen organizations are out to force them to change their opinions
you should check my pic

>> No.5952435

The dental industry has done nothing but use the same tricks for decades on decades, it's the least developed medical field. It has only two tools, fluoride and fillings. If it lost fluoride it wouldn't be able to carry on.

>> No.5952438

>>5947935
When I posted that I only drink pepsi and never drink water a few flouride threads back, I wasn't kidding.
my life is not a meme, sir

>> No.5953053

>>5952404
>>5952319
well, I exaggerated, not third world as in africa third world, but the point is the only difference between those kids and city kids is the fluoride water, she's a preschool teacher and teaches herself to brush their damn teeth, they do it in front of her.

In any case, this is a particular case. I don't really know about any studies, so this should be considered as anecdotal evidence, still, it's a great control group don't you think? as I say, it's the only difference.