/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.5759738]

After seeing many threads that debate the pros and cons of various forms of electrical energy generation, it got me thinking, wouldn't it be easier to decentralize power generation? Aside from NIMBYs, I couldn't see anything to go wrong with it.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759743]

>>5759738
Well, get to it. No one is stopping you from buying your own solar panels, incinerator, wind turbine, geothermal vent, steam engine, or whatever.

[Anonymous No.5759760]

>>5759743
>implying lack of money isnt a tyranical form of opression

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759770]

>>5759760
>implying you need lots of money to make a simple steam engine or buy a generator that can power your house

If you can't afford to create your own electricity, maybe use less electricity? Lots of off-grid people do this. Making your own means leaner living, or high expense.

Or, you know, save money and buy your electric from a company. 10c/KWh isn't bad.

[Anonymous No.5759769]

I could, but I am only a lowly college student. This may piss all of the righties off, since most electric companies are heavily subsidized, could that money go towards a decentralized power scheme?

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759773]

>>5759769
Probably not.

If you aren't paying the coop/government/company for your electric, from what money would they pay you?

[Anonymous No.5759772]

>>5759760
This is a real point.
The apparent push against solar, wind, etc. is actually a push away from decentralization.
There are even well-meaning (not profit motivated) people/groups who feel that kind of freedom would be destabilizing and destructive to a society.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759777]

>>5759772
Well, let's think it over:
power bill, on average $50+/mo
internet $30+/mo
alcohol ???/mo
cigarettes ???/mo
illicit substances ???/mo

It isn't as though you can't get a loan for RE projects (like an add-on to a mortgage, let's say - if you are paying one of those, you clearly have the credit to do this - and you aren't gonna use such tech at a place you don't own).

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759779]

>>5759772
>>5759760
Similarly, your car can make electric for you. Sure, most people don't wanna put that kind of wear on a car, but expect a whole coal plant to be simpler to run in their backyard, or some such.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759784]

In fact, let's turn the beat around.

How would you guys expect decentralization to run (although, this is a /sci/ board and not a /pol/, but I think there's enough science in this to warrant it here... maybe.)

[Anonymous No.5759781]

>>5759770
good point.
The 12 volt stuff built for truckers, camping and marine usage let you do most things you can do with household current.
Basically, heat (even making toast) takes to much juice and washing clothes is over the limit but TV, music, light and computers; those can all be done just fine with 12 volts.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759786]

>>5759781
Yeah, but those APUs are typically charged as a trucker drives (and is therefore generated, essentially, by a diesel generator - the engine of the truck). That's not a very efficient way to do it, but some larger islands generate all their electric on giant diesel generators (expensive and highly polluting, no less).

Then again, if you can afford a cemi...

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759794]

>>5759781
Also, that gets to another good point. Lots of off-grid homes use propane for heat, and do wash by hand if no laundry is nearby.

Again, it's a lifestyle change, one America probably doesn't want as a whole. That whole 'being told what to do' thing tends to get on our nerves.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759798]

>>5759794
Conversely, though, you could also turn off most everything else in your house while you do laundry, and maybe read a book or whatever.

[Anonymous No.5759814]

I should have started the thread differently, so here is what I meant to say: Essentially but a shit ton of renewables in every nook and crany of urban/rural areas, feeding to a grid, or place a few massive generators of your choosing (nuclear, geotherm, coal, biogas, etc) through out given country? What would you choose? Sad to say English is my first language.

[Anonymous No.5759845]

>>5759779
772 here. Whenever I see the ads for people buying junk cars for $100-200 I always think "those could provide light/ventilation/radio etc. to a small house. and a half ton of steel for structural support"

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759863]

>>5759814
Well, we already have option 2.

We currently use 25,000 TWh of electric as a country every year. So, breaking that down, let's estimate 69 TWh per day, on average. That's not the peak (Which is probably double that), and that doesn't include the batteries to store for periods of no sun. How much would that cost?

Just a rough estimate, let's say that panels are $1/watt. So, hey, that's only around $120 trillion dollars just to meet peak need (or around $60 trillion for median - which won't work) Now let's not forget batteries. Currently the best we can do would be ginormous banks of lead-acid batteries, and if we look at something like a Trojan L16, which would give us around 1.8 KWH per battery. We'd need around a billion of those (maybe half to 3/4 billion, doing some quick pleb math and rounding in my head), and at around $350 a piece, that's around 350 billion dollars more. Nevermind all the facilities, maintenance equipment, hazards, individually(?) wiring every single house in America with its own based on load, et cetera, the cost of that alone per capita is well over 400 billion dollars per person, it would seem. Don't forget, though, that includes all the businesses in america, who would likely pay more than the average person to run that skyscraper (meaning your bill could be about whatever it would cost to wire your own house up - maybe a few tens of thousands in solar/wind at your current usage? A few KW of solar is a few $k, and the batteries are another few $k, plus install so it meets code, plus charging and regulating equipment - damn, I didn't even think about the cost of 400 million chargers/inverters/copper wire sets/et cetera).

So, that's probably why it's not economically feasible. I mean, hey, it'd only cost about 2/3 of what the military does, but that's a damn big chunk of change.

[Anonymous No.5759866]

>>5759777
772 here.
That means nothing.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Sorry, please be more explicit in the the next post.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759867]

>>5759845
Not really. Most junk cars go to junkyards to be scrapped. The car would still have to be stripped and melted down. Also, most junk cars aren't running, and then you'd have the cost of fixing it plus running it all the time. Think about what would happen to a junk car you run 24/7/365, at or above full load (read: 6,000 RPM and more than one car) . Would it make it a year? Could you afford the weekly oil changes and maintenance, let alone the gas?

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759870]

>>5759866
I mean, most people (not all, but most) could be (if they so desired) saving money in lots of places to save up for a down payment on a system, or a whole system. However, a resistance to change is kinda the point. People like doing what they're currently doing. changing just to put some solar panels in their back yard and not pay an electric company is something most people aren't going to do.

Also, solar is so expensive because
>dat doped silicon

[Anonymous No.5759874]

>>5759814
>renewables supplying whole country

[Anonymous No.5759884]

>>5759863
talking about peaks with Wh's TOP LEL

[Anonymous No.5759887]

>>5759779
>your car can make electric for you

The 49cc engines sold for motorized bicycles and weed eaters are enough to keep food frozen and provide lights, TV and so on..
2 stroke fuel usage is about 1 gallon (4 liters) every eight hours: that means a total energy bill of about $6 USD per day to live like a greedy American pig. (like I do)

[Anonymous No.5759891]

>>5759887
>$6 per day
bro that's a ripoff

[Anonymous No.5759892]

>>5759887
yeah, it doesnt pay off if you produce electricity with fossil fuels

[Anonymous No.5759893]

>>5759777
>power bill, on average $50+/mo

No. Everyone in the U.S. pay twice that, usually more.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759895]

>>5759884
Oop, good point. Derp. It's late, don't judge me.

120 TWH/day is 10 TW per hour. Oops. Thought that 400 billion sounded high.

Still, 10 trillion is nothing to sneeze at, neither. So, the average person's bill would be around 30k. Still a lot of money.

But yeah, I derped. It's been a long day, please forgive me...?

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759904]

>>5759893
That was my point

>>5759895
That's based on peak, before you say 'nuh uh that's 5' because you can't base it on averages because it isn't constant.

>>5759891
>>5759887
No.

>49cc engine on weed eater
That's a big friggin' weed eater. That's a moped engine (50cc being a motorcycle, at least in this state). Also, no. First, not as efficient (but sure, higher power for displacement). Second, 800w to run a fridge. That's about $400 generator from home depot. Third, fuel usage. Just no. A few gallons a day, sure, more if on constant load. Fourth, noise. Just geezus no.

[Anonymous No.5759906]

Isn't there some talk about this with the use of microturbines and the nat gas boom?

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759911]

>>5759895
400 *trillion, derp my friggin' derp. I can't into math tonight...

[Anonymous No.5759916]

>>5759904
do u even physics?
Wh is 1 watt for 1 hour, a similar unit to Joule (work, energy). 1 Watt is 1 Joule per second
When u talk about peaks you use Watts not Joules or Watt Hour

And if u take 25000 TWh per year, there is no talk about peaks

>120 TWh/day is 10 TW per hour
what

[Anonymous No.5759923]

>>5759786

Don't be silly.

A semi (or cemi) produces hundreds of hoursepower.
Running a roomful of laptops takes less than two hoursepower.
The worst part is that there has been a deliberate campaign of misinformation to convince people that solar/wind/etc. cannot produce enough power to keep people connected.
Again, it can't make toast but it can run 10 cell phones at the same time.
A three foot wide solar panel can provide this much power.
Google it yourself.

[Anonymous No.5759928]

>>5759798
Eight hours of every day is "heat one room and otherwise charge-up" time anyway.
Winds usually blow at Dawn and Sundown anyway: sounds like a perfect lifestyle adaptation.
Natural, kinda artistic.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759940]

>>5759923
No, but a lot of those APU run air conditioners. Similarly, if you are adding an additional 2hp to your load for 8 hours, that's still extra fuel you are using, the same as if you had run a 2hp engine (lawnmower, perhaps) for 8 hours.

>>5759916
Actually, peaks factor into it greatly, because you kinda have to be able to supply whatever power people are using.
I was using an estimate, but peak loads are actually higher than I thought. A simple google search led me to this:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_06_a.html
Found here:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/
From here:
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=100&t=3
So, if we're using a peak 39 TW, we need a system which can handle it (or a commensurate battery bank, which would be pretty goddamned ludicrous).

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759942]

>>5759940
Also, if a 3 foot solar panel could provide that energy, they wouldn't be charging an APU on a cemi with a 56 foot trailer with the diesel engine...

[Anonymous No.5759951]

>>5759867
I meant only the lights, fans and radio. What I said was "Lights. Music and ventilation" Running a 200 hp engine to provide energy to a home is just plain idiotic.
Americans have this perverted fetish about throwing the world away just to prove they can afford it. Any people that does this is doomed to become extinct.
Evolve or die. That is the first and last truth.

[Anonymous No.5759959]

>>5759940
Peak consumption only means that at given moment combined power of all power plants must be higher, unless you want to buy electricity

When using Watt Hour unit peak consumption doesn't factor anything

[Anonymous No.5759966]

>>5759870
866 here. You make a valid point. Change takes thought. People hate that.
The sad part is that there are (IMO) forces who would honestly rather see humanity extinct than sacrifice $1 in their survival.
By "forces" I mean posters ITTT.
((power companies troll homosexual prostitutes))
kinda flattering how much attention 4chan gets from big money these days.

[Anonymous No.5759978]

>>5759904
>>>5759891
>>>5759887
>No.

Yes.
Seriously, are there Oil Interest trolls in this thread?
This is sum uber creepy shyte.

Hey BigOilDudes, Your mother is ashamed. Get a lower paying job that will not make you a slutty little bitch.

Good advice. Listen to it.

[Anonymous No.5759993]

>>5759904
Weed eaters are mostly 25 or 33 cc.
49 is the max from an unlicensed scooter. 50 is a motorcycle. that's the law in most US states.
I know this shit; i build mopeds for a livings.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5759994]

>>5759978
>i am the oil company troll
>tells people that 2 stroke is better than 4 stroke
>forgets burning all dat oil with the gas
>forgets efficiency problems
>forgets that automobiles aren't 2 stroke except inefficient, loud gokarts and stuff

Yeah, I'm the troll alright. I mean, you can get groceries and go to work in a gokart, but that's not what most people do.

>>5759959
Just, no. It doesn't work like you think it does. You either need the power to provide those things, or the backup capacity to account for them.

[Anonymous No.5759997]

>>5759906
please tell us more.
Start a new thread.

[Anonymous No.5760046]

>>5759994
Ignore him. We get a lot of those losers who don't have enough money to pay for the things they want and try to blame other people for it. Some of these "scientists" don't even understand the most important; economics and think their physics and math are more important than money.

[Anonymous No.5760051]

>>5759994
+1 these nerdy faggots need to learn what's important in life.

[Anonymous No.5760054]

>>5759994
>you can get groceries and go to work in a gokart
Somewhere in the world, a man is doing this right now

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760058]

>>5760051
>>5760046
Well, I'm glad at least a couple people agree with me, more or less.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760061]

>>5760054
Yes, but that man isn't decentralizing the energy system.

[Anonymous No.5760072]

>>5760058
No, those were both me. I'm the guy who called you an oil company whore. I posted them because I knew it would turn people against you.
Now that I realize you are so simple I almost feel bad.

[Anonymous No.5760073]

>>5760061
The thought of some seriously using a go kart for it is fucking hilarious though.

It's like someone thinking that wearing shoes that are 2 sizes too small will stop sweatshops in Bangladesh.

[Anonymous No.5760079]

>>5760073
there are many smaller communities in the US that allow golfcarts on the streets. Sun City AZ is a retirement community of 500,000 people that does it.
Very little gas is burned and no one dies in car accidents; 30 mph gets you where you are going and no one dies.

[Anonymous No.5760093]

>>5760073
You don't pay your own bills do you?
If so, you are not very skilled at it.
Live with mom?
The reality is that whither it's a household or a major industry cutting down 5% on something, anything, changes the game. If you don't see that then stay out of grown-up talk.

[Anonymous No.5760097]

>>5760079
>Very little gas is burned and no one dies
That's the most un-American thing I've ever heard of.

Well good for them but I still need to be able to travel a larger distance and offroad. I also need enough electricity to run the technology in my rig while I'm mobile. Also heating is nice for not freezing.

[Anonymous No.5760103]

>>5760093
I believe in this ambitious idea where we take what we have and make more, instead of starving ourselves prematurely.

Human ingenuity and conceptual understanding in the face of uncertain conditions.

[Anonymous No.5760104]

>>5760097
So, overall, your a dim-witted person who cannot adapt?
Well, the good news is that everyone like you will be extinct soon. Bad news is you are not taking us with you and it's gonna get ugly.

[Anonymous No.5760114]

>>5760103
No one is advocating starving.
I am advocating not acting like a weak-willed pig.

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760112]

>>5760072
Ah, so your'e just a samefag?

Must suck being pleb tier anon.

[Anonymous No.5760116]

>>5760112
You called it tripfag.
lel

[Anonymous No.5760117]

>>5760104
Jesus, you're on the verge of bursting out of your pants! Tuck it in or hang a towel on that doom boner!

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760119]

>>5760079
>sun city
>500,000 people
>retirement community
orly?
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sun+city%2C+az
nope.jpg

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760125]

>>5760117
Meh, it's all one samefag who can't get over the gokart his dad fixed up for him 15 years ago. And he probably still lives in the same place and doesn't have to pay for that gasoline or oil...

I mean, anything is cheap when you aren't paying for it.

[Anonymous No.5760146]

>>5760119
I lived 2 years in Phoenix; Sun city sure seemed bigger than 40K and "officially" a retirement community or not i can assure you most of the people there are grey haired. Thanks for the (mostly irrelevant) stats but I assure you the golf carts are real and seem to work just fine.

My point is that 30 mph will get you coast to coast in the US in a few weeks. Nothing but fresh fruit needs to travel faster than that.

[Anonymous No.5760147]

>>5760104
I made this for you doom-kun

[Anonymous No.5760149]

>>5760125
Actually, (oh the shame) I drive a Dodge Caravan. But I would accept a 30 mph limit if it meant what it would actually mean. Frankly, I would need a stretch golf-cart to hold the kids.

[Anonymous No.5760151]

>>5760147
I guess I am flattered, I mean I did save the image.

less than three

[Anonymous No.5760159]

>>5760146
>Nothing but fresh fruit needs to travel faster than that.
Confirmed for never having lived outside of a major city.

[Anonymous No.5760168]

>>5760159
Admitted.
I am 146 and have never actually lived in the country as an adult.
Question: how often do you really need to leave your little town/community? and why?

[Anonymous No.5760195]

>>5760151
Doomier

[Anonymous No.5760199]

>>5760195
Doomist!

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760275]

>>5760168
Dat's old.

Well, considering most farm machinery goes faster than that to make your fresh foods, it seems kinda dumb. I mean, hey, maybe you don't have relatives that live 30 miles away, or maybe you don't have hills, or inclement weather, or need any sort of emergency service ever.

Not that any of this is relevant. Oh hey, you almost got us. Time to bring this thread back on track. Just let us know when you get that two-stroke cemi or train running.
>probably thinks hit-and-miss engines are even more efficient...

[Jarl Sagan !!3rYN5G3P3OE No.5760283]

>>5760199
>>5760195
Meh, you're both going to die someday.