[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

View post   
File: 111 KB, 414x317, MTF.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5646255 No.5646255 [Reply] [Original]

anyone else kinda excite about this?

>energy requirements to make "target" plasma toroid are well below what the tokamak uses
>compression requirements to initiate and sustain an even fusion burn of the target have already been demonstrated at ITER
>time requirements for fusion events are well within what's already been done
>this is practically already proven

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetized_target_fusion

there will be annoying gremlins. every fusion method has them, hopefully it's something easy like uneven compression, which can easily be compensated for by high speed computers synchronizing the firing of the pistons, or purposefully setting them out of sync to "shape" the compression wave

>> No.5646264
File: 29 KB, 482x800, brettygood.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5646264

Dunno what that is

It looks worthy of the title of futuristic shit though.

>> No.5646280

Fusion has a long history of "this is practically already proven" we just need an extremely small change and we should get above 1 lawson criteria, and then going horribly wrong.

Plasmas are horrible coupled non linear dynamic systems that a researcher I was talking with described as on par with the economy. Nothing is ever assured with even small steps forward.

That being said I'm highly hopefully

>> No.5646287

>>5646280
MTF has the advantage of brute forcing the plasma into a compressed state, and it only needs to "hold it" for very short periods

ITER failed because it had to get really really high, even compression with lasers with little imperfections in the beam
tokamak failed because it needed to hold plasma extremely "still" for very long periods of time.

this doesn't really need compression that even, it's fucking lead lithium, good luck stopping or weaseling out of that freight train.

i'm concerned about quenching though. you're going to get some funky fucking plasma vortex action right at the advancing lead/lithium shock front, and the plasma may just decide "FUCK THIS SHIT" and corkscrew like crazy and quench itself all over the incoming liquid just to be an asshole.

>> No.5646300

>wasting all this time trying to make an artificial sun..

holy fuck we already have a fusion plant we just need to capture the energy!!!

>> No.5646304

>>5646264
It's a fusion reactor.

And it works by, essentially, squeezing shit really hard.

>> No.5646305

How... do you extract energy out of this?

>> No.5646308

>>5646305
neutrons
lots of them
they radiate outwards and impact the lead/lithium, dumping all their kinetic energy as heat. the lead/lithium is basically the working fluid, and continuously cycles out of the reactor to heat water into steam

as a bonus, this really doesn't have any waste to speak of, the reactor doesn't need much shielding (the lead takes care of that), and you get very high energy efficiencies (even if you lose half of your heat in the process of thermal->electric conversion)

>> No.5646315

>>5646308
So the reactor core/coolant still gets lethally radioactive via neutron activation?

>> No.5646328

>>5646315
not really. the lead isotopes are either hideously unstable and decay instantly, or are very stable and stick around a long time.
also the lithium becomes tritium and outgasses, which is nice because you need that stuff to keep your reactor going

>> No.5646381

>>5646300
why don't you commit suicide?
people can work on multiple solutions at the same time.
Making more scientists work on solar panels or ways to store energy won't make that happen very faster anyway.

>> No.5646386

>>5646300
>>5646381
I'm waiting until we can use this technology to manufacture helium... we're just about out of it. Once it's gone, fusion will (most likely) be the only way to get more.

>> No.5646387

>ITER failed because it had to get really really high, even compression with lasers with little imperfections in the beam
ITER is a goddamn Tokamak and has nothing to do with Lasers and ISN'T EVEN DONE.

>> No.5646390

>>5646328
>not really. the lead isotopes are either hideously unstable and decay instantly or are very stable and stick around a long time
>Pb-202 52.5(28)×10^3 a
>Pb-205 15.3(7)×10^6 a
>Pb-210 22.20(22) a
Why are you such a goddamn idiot, seriously?
30 seconds on wikipedia would have spared you looking like a fucking retard.

>> No.5646436

>>5646381
Yes, it will, that's how research works. The sun emits more energy in a second than we use in a year.

>> No.5646475

And yet the think it has yet to demonstrate is the very thing that killed the ignition campaign at NIF, good compression.
This is as "proven" as ICF is finished.

>> No.5646489

>>5646387
Yeah I think he meant NIF. Anyways...

>> No.5647023

>>5646387
whops, meant NIF

>> No.5647048

>>5646390
202 and 205 are below the stable, most common isotope (206) so they'd only be created in extremely trace amounts from smacking into weird trace isotopes of whatever lead samples they use

to make 210 you gotta get through three lower isotopes. 207 and 208 are both stable, 209 could be of concern, since it sticks around for a few hours. also it's a beta decay so anything emitted won't be able to get very far within it's own lead prison.

did you actually read the page?

>> No.5647430

>>5646308
>stopping neutrons with coolant

lolwut? Even in LWRs neutrons are MAYBE only captured in structure (core barrel or containment) or absorbed in resonance spectrum. 14.3 MeV fusion neutrons aren't going to be stopped by shit. A better alternative for capturing heat (out of a standard magnetic confinement fusion reactor) would be to use extracted helium in an open loop Brayton cycle. It would be much more effective at harnessing energy, but only using less energetic alphas compared to neutrons.

>>5646386
Imagine mining the gas giants for helium 3 using orbiting platforms powered by second/third generation fusion using helium 3. Mind-fuck.

>> No.5648355

>>5647430
>stopping neutrons with liquid lead
>that also happens to be your working fluid (not coolant)
seems aight 2 me m8

>> No.5648376

HOLY SHIT I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS 2 DAYS AGO
Never saw it before, just thought what could i do with a ball full of something and shitloads of plasma injectors on it.
I'm mindblown right now...

>> No.5648384

>>5646255
Normallfag here. What's this, why is it important, what it means for future developments and science, and how it works?

>> No.5648394

>>5648355
>>5648393
whoops, forgot to use my name

>> No.5648393

>>5648355
Lead isn't that spectacular of a neutron absorber. Especially liquid lead...

Seriously, you will capture a lot more neutrons in concrete than you will in lead.

>> No.5648402

>>5648394
>>5648393
the sphere is about a meter in diameter, in fact the diameter was chosen specifically to capture as many neutrons as possible, both for heat and for breeding fuel

>> No.5648412

>>5648411
By flat I mean circular

>> No.5648411

How about a flat, instead of spherical design?

>> No.5648418

>>5648412
spherical implosion is much more efficient, i believe. the plasma has no where to "squeeze out"

>> No.5648420

>>5648418
Good point. I know fuck all about magnetic confinement so that may or may not be solvable.

>> No.5648664

>>5646436

No, that's how research works in a fucking Sid Meyer game. You can't just pour all your little beakers into one of eight options until the little light bulb fills up and you get a breakthrough.

>> No.5648665

>>5646255
Do they have a plan to deal with the insane neutron flux and how that tends to destroy wall materials? That lead lithium is there to absorb most of the neutrons? Interesting.

>> No.5648677

>>5646287
Please, stop talking about how great it will be, get back to work and call me when you break even.

>> No.5648715

>>5646386
What do you mean that we are out of Helium?

>> No.5648740

>>5648715
Helium is found in a few natural gas reserves. The US kept prices artificially low for years, boosting demand. It's a very finite resource that will take longer than fossil fuels to regenerate.