/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.5508067]

Why do you think most people dislike math?

If your answer was going to be something along the lines of: because they suck at it. Then, what do you think is the reason they suck at it? Is it just plain cognitive ability or you think something else weighs in?

Pic obv unrelated, the only img I had available in my phone.

[Anonymous No.5508070]

it's because they have their mind closed to new ideas, which is what math is.

[Anonymous No.5508072]

I don't think introductory math courses put enough emphasis on thinking about how to solve a problem.

Kids get discouraged easily/become resentful when they don't get credit for something they tried. If we focused on the how of solving math problems, and recognized when students were using the right approach and just getting tripped up in technical, algebraic details, then I think students would feel better.

[xerxes No.5508078]

I think most people straight up are too lazy to think through it.
Also, I think they lack the 'logical framework' for understanding mathematics.

People will say they suck at it, but really, I think many if not most just haven't any experience in math, have some visceral fear of math drilled into them, or just are unused to mental rigor.

[Anonymous No.5508085]

>>5508072
Why does nobody give a fuck about this obviously excellent information?
I appreciate math, but I can't put the time in to have a good enough memory of how to blow through a problem template (note: memory versus mathematical thinking) to do well at uni.

Guess I'll have to abandon the discipline because the low levels are designed to blow generic engineers through their degrees to get working...

Time limits on tests are also BS when they're meant to push your speed limit, at least 3 times that should be allowed for the sake of meticulous thinkers.

[Anonymous No.5508096]

Most people find a place where it gets too dense or too removed from anything they give a shit about. For me it was homeworks in abstract algebra where I had to hunt for theorems to prove some shit that didn't matter to anyone, as if it would save the world because I proved it, hardly.

[Anonymous No.5508099]

>>5508067
Inability to intuit abstract concepts, some people just need to see, touch, feel, and/or examine things to understand them enough to master their use and derive satisfaction.

[Anonymous No.5508106]

>>5508067
>Then, what do you think is the reason they suck at it?

People are lazy.

They skip the hard work, miss stuff out, and think you can just 'wing it' in maths. You can't, you're either right or wrong there is no 'close enough' in maths.

Therefore they think 'Oh well I just don't have a maths brain', 'Lol I suck at maths', 'I'm just not a maths person'.

[Anonymous No.5508112]

>>5508106
>and think you can just 'wing it' in maths. You can't,
Actually, you would be surprised how far guessing 1 or 0 gets you in some math.

>You can't, you're either right or wrong
Actually, sometimes you can be right and wrong or neither right nor wrong.

[ultrasnarks No.5508116]

people have a low tolerance for pain and frustration when it comes to something they are unfamiliar with (there's an element of fear)

[Anonymous No.5508117]

I can't memorize formula. Tried for years. Years of general ed, years of college, in one ear, out the other. Got all the way to calculus by the skin of my teeth and got the shit beat out of me there because I couldn't remember the formulas after not using them for more than a week.

Went to work in the real world as a telecommunications engineer (setup, maintenance, repair) and never used any of it. Not one fucking time did I ever go above standard multiplication or division and even then that was just on the paperwork size calculation costs on orders and shit.

After 8 years I went back to school, did a shiton more math, this time in business and accounting and some programming/statistics. Did we ever do math by hand? Fuck no. Excel and calculators. Been working at my job for the last 15 years, and I do mid level math (geometry and algebra) on a semi-regular basis. By hand? Never. I was issued a TI Nspire graphing calculator with an algebra solver by my employer, plus they wanted us to have an Excel cert from Microsoft. If they ever saw me doing algebra or something by hand I'd get chewed out for wasting company time and introducing potential errors.

Math is taught in school as some kind of arcane discipline. You do it by hand, you do it on paper, you show your work, you graph it, etc. In the real world no one CARES about that shit. They pay you to give them an answer. If its the right answer they don't care how you did it. They don't care that you used a CAS, they just want it done on time and under budget.

Forcing people to do math the old fashioned way is like forcing people to write term papers as calligraphy with a fountain pen. Is there a place for that? Sure, as an art or a hobby or a mental exercise. They should instead teach people to do math that they will use (+-*/) and then teach them how to use calculators for the rest of that shit. Everyone has a cell phone these days that can do math faster and more accurately than anyone but a savant anyway.

[Anonymous No.5508122]

>>5508067
To be fair the vast majority of it is worthless in everyday life. Honestly a calc based stats/probability course is the only class people can use in real life.

[Anonymous No.5508131]

>When to use PNG

All the time, because a few extra MB aren't a problem anymore. It's not 1996 you know.

[ultrasnarks No.5508138]

>>5508117
it helps one gain a deeper understanding of the subject matter to understand the details.

they're more likely to recall it and they may be more creative with its use when they understand the mechanics behind it.

that's where i think your analogy of writing term papers in calligraphy breaks down; writing in calligraphy adds a confounding variable when you're trying to isolate one's competence on the subject of the term paper and test for that. Showing your work in math tests one's competence in the subject you're testing for.

I think you might be taking the wrong approach to memorize formulae. Why not try instead to commit to memory some fundamental concepts and theorems and then learn to derive from those their various manifestations and logical implications in solving diverse problems. It might sound more complicated than it is. With the investment of a bit of focus and good faith, you'll remember concepts much better in the long-term when you can network new information from what you already know than trying to memorize a series of otherwise seemingly disparate equations.

[Anonymous No.5508144]

>>5508117

This. The reason why most people 'suck' at math is because its lack of everyday usefulness means you require that passionate artistic fixation to derive any enjoyment from it. How can you expect people to be good at something if they cannot use it regularly enough for it to become ingrained and instinctual? Like anything, if you don't use it you lose it. So for math, you basically need to give your soul to it. It's not for people who don't use it enough on a regular basis to prevent the knowledge from degrading from their minds.

It's one of the least practical of all fields of knowledge. Who the fuck has time for it except those who truly love it?

[Anonymous No.5508146]

>>5508067
Because they're not creative enough.

[Anonymous No.5508148]

Because most people are sheep, they just want to follow blindly some instructions given to them. Math is the exact opposite of that, you have complete freedom, there is no predetermined way to solve a problem.
So we tried to teach math that is just some instructions to follow, but then it became boring for the non-sheep, and useless for the sheep, so we ended with a shit math education.

[Anonymous No.5508151]

>>5508138
Math is useful in every circumstance.

[Anonymous No.5508152]

I have no idea why, but I really enjoy maths(and yet hate decimals)
I just enjoy how all the numbers just fall together and make stuff
I also enjoy the slightly more abstract stuff like 0.999999999=1 even though that isn't technically possible
Technically

[Anonymous No.5508155]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Hqdqe84Uc

[Anonymous No.5508159]

>that's where i think your analogy of writing term...

There once was a day when having clean, neat handwriting was essential. My grandfather was fired from his first job for having poor handwriting. Can you imagine that? It boggles my mind on so many levels. Someday I will tell my grandchildren that we did algebra and calculus by hand. I sure it will boggle their minds too. Right along with explaining why can openers were needed and why, in all the old movies the phones have cords and no screens.

>it helps one gain a deeper understanding...

Sure, but its unnecessary. Why do I need a better understand of something I have a machine to do for me? I'm sure forcing people to take an autoshop class would give them a better understanding of how their cars operate, but if they are never going to be required to work on their car why should they need to know that to operate it? Some people talk about doing exactly that, force them to take auto shop, force them to take electrical engineering, force them to take this, and that. Its USELESS to most people. If I'm never going to be required to DO math by hand, if all I'm ever going to do is input numbers and hit enter, why do I have to understand whats going on inside? Thats true for almost anyone. All of that shit should be taught in college and only if its specific to your degree. There shouldn't be algebra requirements, no autoshop requirements, etc.

The reasons you give were the same reason I was fed in school and they always galled me. It always sounded like bullshit. After being in the real working world for 25 years now and being successful in three different technical careers, I can safely say that my 12 year old self was right. Math is fine as a mental pursuit or discipline, but accounting is more useful to the common person then algebra ever will be. Geometry, algebra, calculus, all worthless to the common person, yet forced upon them for years because of some antiquated ideas about how it improves understanding.

[Anonymous No.5508165]

>>5508067
Fuck you faggot

[Anonymous No.5508167]

>>5508144

I did well in math primarily b/c I like problem-solving. It's a challenge and I go in believing I can solve it. Then there are obstacles that require persistence, looking at alternatives, or plain old starting from the beginning again (and again....). That's the part where a lot of people suck/get discouraged. That's what's called "lazy" but actually it may have to do with time invested. A lot of people don't have the persistence to continue tackling difficult problems that lack a clear timeframe or reward, or they don't care to develop that trait or have more important things to do.

It also helps that doing so is an easy way for a socially-deficient person to elevate self-esteem. Not much socializing to take up your time/look forward to.

This is what >>5508144
is talking about, to whom I would say deriving enjoyment from something is not the only reason to try to do something well. I want to make problems my bitches, whether I like the subject matter or not (math, physics, chemistry or whatever courses I've taken). My motivation is an underlying belief that being able to solve difficult/unsolved problems is an absolute good.

[Anonymous No.5508170]

>>5508159

Different person weighing in here. I just want to point out that a lot of every day stuff you do is "algebra by hand" even if you don't think of it that way. Like, finding out how much food to buy etc.

I don't agree with how math is taught. As a math major, I can personally confirm that there's a bunch of shit you learn in high that makes no sense until you're studying topology or whatever.

I'm the person who said we need to teach problem solving, and I maintain that mathematics taught properly is a vital skill. You don't need to know how to find the zeroes of a function, but you do need to be able to say, "if I have this much and need that much, how much should I put there?" Financing requires rudimentary algebra, and you managed to grasp the basics of problem solving in mathematics if you can do it without recognizing it as such.

[Anonymous No.5508173]

I think math is fucking cool as shit, I just find it easier and more interesting to study organisms than physics. I don't have a prejudice against the subject. I love learning about astronomy, so I try to learn enough math to understand it, but understanding mathematics doesn't come easy to me.

My brain is more geared towards linguistics and I find it much easier to learn, study and remember zoology than I do physics.

[Anonymous No.5508189]

Because they don't understand it.

[Anonymous No.5508204]

I think its the way its taught in schools, primary and secondary. Teachers have a lot to push the students through in a year so they'll do things like write a worked example on the board then say "do these 30 questions" all of which you could be sure were just the same as on the board. Effectively giving the students the answer, then the questions leaving the kids nothing to do but copy the method. Its like maths is a tour bus and the teacher the tour guide, you look out the window into maths land but you're not allowed to stray to far from the set road or go out and experiment, and for gods sakes dont have fun with it, it all has to be done this way in accordance with scripture.

[Anonymous No.5508373]

>>5508070
nope

[Anonymous No.5508414]

>>5508067
> OP's pic is largely text and blank space
> ostensibly about when to use png
> uses jpg
6/10

[Anonymous No.5508489]

>>5508159
>Sure, but its unnecessary. Why do I need a better understand of something I have a machine to do for me?
What if the machine breaks down?
What if the machine, for some reason, will not accept your input?
What if you need to check that the machine is working properly?
How do we create better machines?

[Anonymous No.5508557]

>>5508067

i think its a cultureal thing..

all the parents is saying to their child. math is hard and boring. so they get learned to think that

[Anonymous No.5508562]

>>5508085

lol at all the excuses.. just learn math. is not that hard. stop making up a excuses and bullshit

[Anonymous No.5508570]

>>5508117

well you can say that about all fields..

why do we need to learn history .. we have google. why do we need to learn anything really as long as we have computers and internet.

i for one like math. few things in school i actually enjoyed.

[Anonymous No.5508580]

>>5508159

just trust me, if you are going to do real engineering you need to do math..

i see you have found some loophole where you can get you pay and stuff. but its not real deep work.

[Anonymous No.5508584]

>>5508148
Best post I've read in a long time

[Anonymous No.5508629]

>>5508557
i think there's more to it than that

i would love to have data on this, but i don't
but my impressions is that quite a lot of little kids like math, but they get fewer as they get older

my guess would be that it has to do with rewarding experiences

it can be exciting to learn what things happened in the past or what kind of lifeforms or even places there are (if you like such things)

and it is tremendously exciting to figure out how stuff works

the problem with math is, from a certain point it gets hard to imagine possible applications for it on the spot
not until you know some physics, which in turn must not get ahead of math

which leaves math abstract and dry, unless you have a good teacher

[Anonymous No.5508707]

>>5508204
Ugh this.

I didn't start thinking about it abstractly until college. I have to force myself to be interested in it enough to study. But of course they overload you with redundant home work so when I get behind because I choose my social life and sleep, I feel so buried by work that I give up.

I think I'll just learn what I need on my own time then retake the placement test.

[Anonymous No.5509356]

>>5508067

It mainly has to do with the way it is taught in schools and at home, so yes it is a cultural thing. I think a lot of people convince themselves they can't do math so they don't put the effort in to actually learn anything. My dad is a full-on math retard, but I am an undergraduate physics major. I think my dad would actually have done well enough in math, but for whatever reason starting when he was a kid he decided he couldn't do math, and so now he really can't do even basic math. Kinda pathetic in my opinion, but still love him, right?

[Anonymous No.5509367]

>>5508152
are you in middle school or something?

[Anonymous No.5509392]

>>5508067

Here's the real shit OP.

From a MathFag (Inb4butthurt galore)

The way Math is taught in school is fucking HORRIBLE.

It's NOT REAL MATH. Not anywhere CLOSE.
It's not intuitive, It's not simple and beautiful, the path they take is not fucking logical.

It's just a mismash of bullshit.

Plus most "Math" teachers were Art/English majors that have a teaching certificate.

>INB4DUDEURAFAGGOT
>INB4NOONETHINKSTHAT

I present the following:

www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf - Paul Lockhart "A Mathematicians Lament" the book is better, but this is his original article.

also see "A Mathematicians Apology" by G.H. Hardy

Ask a REAL Mathematician what they think of Math in public schools (Any, not just America) and you'll get why people don't like Math.

[Anonymous No.5509399]

>>5509392

In addition:

I only say >INB4NASOINOBOGBSD BUTTHURT

because that's what /sci/ has done in the past if you criticize Math in academic settings.

As if the real world gives a fuck what you did in college.

[Anonymous No.5509427]

>>5509392
>>5509399
I agree 100%. High school math here in Canada is a joke.

[Anonymous No.5509431]

>>5509392
Lockhart's lament is a load of horse shit. For thousands of words he goes all fruity about art and bitches about how sad it is that we have to practice how to do basic shit (meanwhile I help adults who can't understand fraction arithmetic because they don't know factors and multiples well because they didn't master basic multiplication), but doesn't even offer one single lesson outline, let alone a curriculum.

[Anonymous No.5509445]

They aren't autistic and have an imagination

[Anonymous No.5509451]

>>5509392
Be glad you don't live in Sweden. I still remember one day back in high school when I was walking past an open classroom. The instructions on the board were literally in step-by-step form. Something like:
Step 1: Take your number and plug it into this formula
Step 2: Take your answer and do this to it.
Step 3: Plug it into this formula
Done!

I almost puked. I literally felt physically sick seeing that.

[Anonymous No.5509462]

>>5509451
They should at least let kids know that this isn't what math is all about. Of course, there are some things that are best done algorithmically like row reduction and the Gram-Schmidt process and stuff but in my experience there's some logic behind why the process works that's taught to the students. It's sad because there's so much you can teach to kids that is omitted because the teacher can't understand it or it's seen as trivial for whatever reason. Such a shame, kids are smarter than we give them credit for.

[Anonymous No.5509491]

>>5509451
What a peculiar sensitivity you have. Imagine witnessing the school massacred by the Taliban.

[Anonymous No.5509492]

A big part of this is that people who actually know what math is are generally not the same people who aspire to teach high school math or lower. Think about it... most math majors are going to go on to academic or some technical work. They by and large are not interested in teaching a bunch of snot-nosed 8 year olds how to add fractions or teaching a classroom of hormonal teenagers why complex numbers are useful. The people who actually end up teaching this stuff are usually NOT math majors but rather teacher education majors with maybe a math or physics certification thrown in. So, in high school math classes it's often the blind leading the blind. I did advanced work in high school, and I remember when I was in Differential Eqn's one of the high school algebra teachers told me she had never taken DiffEq. I was kinda amazed...

So most people graduate from high school thinking math is a bunch of arcane rules with little applicability in their own lives. They don't see mathematical beauty or feel any desire to pursue it.

[Anonymous No.5509493]

>>5509392
One of the best reads I have had this new year. Thanks anon

>>5509431
You missed the point.

He is pointing out what's wrong so that others may step in and put in a system that is right.

[Anonymous No.5509503]

Because it it worthless to the vast majority of people. These are the types of people that like math. I majored in civil and had never had to use anything other than trig.

http://math.stanford.edu/photos/students/index.html

I imagine most math students at elite school look like these mutants. How would you like to share a cubicle with this cross-eyed freak?

[butthurt scavenger !!W3G3jdIwCDC No.5509506]

because sometimes math requires actual thought

most people don't like that

[Anonymous No.5509535]

>>5509493
There's no fucking way that you read all that in a few minutes. Pointing out what's wrong? Everybody does that already. He just did it from the perspective of a math genius who went farther than most of the general public could ever manage even if they had three hundred years. I don't need to read silly analogies in story form that try to convince me that math is art. He doesn't even get the analogies right. You have to practice musical instruments and painting too if you want to get very good.

[Anonymous No.5509544]

Why does no one like math? Because it has a stigma of being hard, because it's poorly explained and because it still refuses to fully adapt to changing times.

People don't like to be forced to do difficult things, if people aren't shown the right way to think about math (a series of problems and answers disconnected from anything that matters is wrong) then they'll never understand it and clam up when you try to teach them, and why do something by hand that piece of ubiquitous technology can do for you with 100% accuracy every time so long as you input the right commands.

[Anonymous No.5509553]

>>5508138
>it helps one gain a deeper understanding of the subject matter to understand the details.

>it helps one to gain a deeper understanding of driving if they understand the air to fuel ratio of an internal combustion engine

Not really.

http://www.ted.com/talks/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_math_with_computers.html

[Anonymous No.5509572]

>>5508570
>why do we need to learn anything really as long as we have computers and internet.

Actually, the idea that it's better to be able to have skills in acquiring information rather than in already knowing it is a defensible position.

Doctors spend years memorizing all the symptoms associated with each disease yet with a simple search and the untrained eye a layman can now land in the right ballpark. Doctors are limited by their memory and how common or rare a disease is can effect whether a doctor remembers it exists at all. Medicine would there fore be farther ahead if doctors focused on the ability to 'refine and confirm' a search of rather than general diagnosis.

[Anonymous No.5509573]

>>5508131
It is for mobile devices.

[Anonymous No.5509578]

>>5508148
>>5508148
>Because most people are sheep, they just want to follow blindly some instructions given to them. Math is the exact opposite of that, you have complete freedom, there is no predetermined way to solve a problem.

Then everyone should be able to ace k-12 math, it's completely rote pretty much anywhere you go in the US.

[Anonymous No.5509595]

I'm terrible at math, but I still appreciate it.

[Anonymous No.5509606]

>>5509535
I'm not the guy you're responding to, but Lockhart's Lament is well known in mathematics circles. It was written by a former astronaut mathfag as well.

>You have to practice musical instruments and painting too if you want to get very good.

You completely misunderstood.

There's a difference between playing music someone else has written and creating music on your own. This is the same in mathematics. There's a difference between memorizing theorems, techniques, methods, etc.. and creating your own. If you do mathematics as just memorization of processes, then it's arguably not mathematics. Similarly playing some sheet music you look up on the internet is not the same as being a musician.

Most working mathematicians do regard mathematics as an art. Similarly, most working mathematicians do not regard arithmetic as mathematics (the shit you're teaching "adults").

[Anonymous No.5509611]

>>5508131
On sites that get accessed a lot it is a problem. Besides it's retarded to use that compression algorithm for that purpose anyways.

[Anonymous No.5509613]

Not the guy you guys were responding to.

>>5508170
>finding out how much food to buy
Even if it's algebra by some incredibly obscure technicality it's also an estimate which changes the game completely. If you could rough guess your way through math half the world would have a phd in math.

>>5508489
The lay person only needs to know when a machine breaks, at that point it's the job of a specialist to know what's going on and how it's supposed to achieve the desired results.

We've been specializing for long enough that you should know this already.

[Anonymous No.5509628]

>>5509392
Wow. I'm not OP but Thank you!
This puts so many things in perspective. I've never heard this put so clearly and elegantly.
Now it makes sense to me why most people hate math class. It explains a lot about how I've felt about some math subjects and not others. tyty

[Anonymous No.5509632]

>>5508414
A picture inside his image is high res it changes which format it should be

[Anonymous No.5509645]

>>5508557
It's not just parents and it's not just math, people lose interest in things they enjoy when they become obligated or even forced to do them. I used to love reading books, I was reading material at least 4-5 years ahead of my age... until a few years after I started school. Then I could barely be assed to read anything.

[Anonymous No.5509698]

I think it's mostly because of the way mathematics are taught. Humanities have the advantage of provoking debate and discussion and criticism, which most people enjoy, and the natural sciences not only have a multitude of applications that students can relate to but also those that students find interesting. For instance, not everyone is very interested in quantum mechanics but the idea of there being an "alternate universe" in the fifth dimension can often spark enough interest for them to pursue the complexities involved with such a field.

But with mathematics, the novelty of interesting applications is all but lost. Math is taught in most schools by formulaic method, showing students what problems they might encounter on their next exam and walking them through them, when in reality teachers should be showing them how calculus can be used to, say, optimize the size of a container for maximum volume, or show them things like the Weierstrass function and explain how it is continuous everywhere but differentiable nowhere.

The fact is that there are many "cool" things in math that students simply aren't exposed to, and thus they lose interest. What most teachers fail to realize is that a certain degree of entertainment must be achieved in order to motivate students to even care about what they're doing.

[Anonymous No.5509822]

I'm thinking about starting to give private lessons in math to middle/highschoolers, I'm only 18 but the maths I've encountered so far in school has just come veey easily to me so I honestly have no idea how to teach the material to someone. Should I just try to copy what my teachers tried doing, or how should one teach maths properly?

[Anonymous No.5509847]

I just find it extremely tedious.

[Anonymous No.5509912]

>>5508117

>telecommunications engineer
>engineer

please stop labeling yourself as an engineer, instead call yourself a technicians because that is what you are.

The point isn't to have you become a human calculator, the point is to have you learn enough for you to recognize errors in the calculations yourself.

[Anonymous No.5509924]

>>5508117
What you are doing is not math.

[Anonymous No.5509936]

>>5508085
this fucking guy

[Anonymous No.5509987]

>>5509924
I must admit when you say shit like that I think I'm in an econ thread, except substitute math for free markets.

[Anonymous No.5509992]

>Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry

>beauty cold and austere
>cold

I appreciate the field of maths, and think its amazing how things like pi, e, pythagorean theorem etc. are just these truths that simply exist, and I am definitely a math and science enthusiast. Basic algebra and geometry I found enjoyable insofar as I like solving puzzles, but beyond that I just dislike how dry and emotionless it is. Even though I tried to force myself to become a math person for the sake of practicality, I it really stresses me out to the point where I'm depressed/miserable. Just barely passed pre-calc after 3 attempts, now throwing in the towlel...

I prefer studying things which are all about human thoughts and feels, so after trying and failing at college level maths, I'm going to study philosophy, because its what I really like/love/enjoy/am enthusiastic about. I'm taking a philosophy of math and science course next week, which will be much more enjoyable than actually doing any kind of math.

[Anonymous No.5510014]

>>5509992
That's because you've only been exposed to a tiny dose. There are tons of theorems out there for the same thing from lots of different perspectives.

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/MamikonsProofOfThePythagoreanTheorem/


Don't look at mathematics so coldly. Perhaps you may enjoy this read on mathematical morality.
http://cheng.staff.shef.ac.uk/morality/morality.pdf

[Anonymous No.5510024]

>>5509632
> converts a jpg to a png
> says the png is larger
how do people like you even function in daily life

[Anonymous No.5510478]

>>5509822

Bumping this.

[Anonymous No.5510487]

OP here, thanks for all your responses.

I made this thread because I personally struggle at maths and wanted to gain some insight on why I suck at it. I suck at many other things I enjoy (like chess) so I initially didn't think this was the reason why I didn't like it.

Looking back at my past experiences with maths, I never sensed I had any sort of freedom to experiment with it in an academic setting.

I am a very creative person and one of my main strenghts (and weakness too) is that I usually try to apply my own methods to solve or complete a task.

For example, as a guitar player I barely play any already composed music. Either I play my own compositions (and continually try make new ones to avoid getting bored) or do not play at all. Even though I have no formal musical knowledge (I can't read sheet music, for example), my compositions usually get the praise of my professor and he flat out told me that I had the talent to make it as a professional if I wanted to pursue that goal.

This is why I think I never really liked maths, it has always been presented to me in an algorithmical form. A series of steps you do to get a value or a group of values.

[Anonymous No.5510491]

>>5510487
>cont.

I despise maths teachers who complain about the students lack of competence on the rare cases they introduce a task that's not purely algorithm based, why do they pretend the students to be competent in non-linear tasks that require thinking wide, not forward; while the latter is the only way the students have been ever taught mathematics.

Personally, I've always been taught mathematics in a way that pretends the student to be the assembly line, instead of the artisan. Also, I've been always been taught mathematics essentially as a black box. There was never enough time to learn why, only to learn how. And for me at least, sometimes there wasn't even enough time to learn all the hows.

I'm going to try my hand at getting better at mathematics at my own pace, with a calculus book at the library, plenty of time to learn all the why's, plenty of time to do all the exercises, no exam dates, no cynical dopamine overloaded professors. Just me and my book.

When I finally finish the book, I will take the college course and use the classes as revision. It will take considerably more time, but I think it will be considerably more satisfying and I will learn all the concepts, not just the algorithms.

[medic No.5510505]

i cant stand an shape math. geometry ruined math for me.
theorems are also a pain

i still respect the subject

[Anonymous No.5510511]

>>5510487

>I usually try to apply my own methods to solve or complete a task.

This is math.

[Anonymous No.5510546]

>>5510491
You sound like a pretty cool guy. Here's a tip: geometry is your best friend if you think in terms of diagrams and images; the only reason I'm comfortable with dealing with equations with multiple variables is due to randomly deciding one day that I wanted to figure out the surface area of a torus.

[Anonymous No.5510595]

>>5510546

I can think in images, but I am strongest in thinking in sounds (for example I can remember how all the notes of a pretty sizable chunk of a jazz song sound like, even though I consider my memory to be sub-par. It sucks that I'm not interested in being a musician).

Regarding maths, I strive to visualize the geometric interpretations of the subjects I'm learning when they are possible. Sometimes I can't figure up there are geometric interpretations of some subjects and overlook them but this isn't intentional.

Thank you for the compliment and overall helpfulness.

[Anonymous No.5510611]

>>5509392 15:47
>>5509493 16:19

Are you saying it is impossible to read something equivalent to about 15 pages in a book (maybe 8 pages in a textbook) in 30 minutes?

Now I know that I don't have to respond to your post, because clearly you are in idiot

[Anonymous No.5510656]

>>5510611

Polite sage:

I'm sorry, but why do people on these boards are constantly trying to one-up themselves? You are annonymous. You don't have to protect your ego in here, just ignore the flaming. Your anger response doesn't net you anything. It actually hinders quality thinking.

When I first started coming here, I had the same type of responses that you have. Eventually I realized it wasn't worth it, and that not taking any actions was actually better for my ego than committing to troll duel.

It is so liberating to approach this boards with the thought that you don't have to prove your worth to everybody as you usually do need to in real life.

This is just a friendly tip, take it as you wish.

[Anonymous No.5510739]

>>5510656
*these

[Anonymous No.5510981]

>>5510979
>right mindset *for* learning mathematics
Accidentally a word.

[Anonymous No.5510979]

>>5510491
Sounds like you have the right mindset learning mathematics. Just remember, get used to writing proofs, because mathematics is all about proofs. Here are some books that are good at teaching the "whys":

Good starting points:
- Spivak, "Calculus"
- no seriously, if you're not already using Spivak's "Calculus", you're missing out
- Axler, "Linear Algebra Done Right"
- Artin, "Algebra"

More challenging:
- Rudin, "Principles of Mathematical Analysis"
- Dummit and Foote, "Abstract Algebra"
- Ireland and Rosen, "A Classical Introduction to Modern Number Theory"
- Spivak, "A Comprehensive Introduction to Differential Geometry"

Also, lots more book recommendations:
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~abhishek/chicmath.htm

[Anonymous No.5511005]

>>5509392
>www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf

OP here.

Thank you anon, for one of the most interesting reads I ever had.

It actually made me want to relearn mathematics from the ground up, should I read about the history of mathematics or you have any book recommendations that would teach mathematics in the same way the author introduced his examples?

I can see the beauty in the concepts, and they are approached in similar ways I would approach them, so for the first time maths actually presents itself as a fulfilling discipline to me.

Any maths book recommendations that approach math as this author does will be thoroughly appreciated.

[Anonymous No.5511013]

>>5510979

Thank you, I haven't seen this before making my post.

I'll be starting with one of these books tomorrow morning.

[Anonymous No.5511016]

>>5511013
*hadn't

Sorry not an English native speaker.

[Anonymous No.5511017]

This photo contradicts itself.

[Anonymous No.5511022]

It's been proven that the brain associates math with pain in some people

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/11/121108-math-pain-hurts-brain-science-health/

At the end of the day I remember being turned of off math because we focused more on marks and forcing everyone to get the concepts through forced memorization methods like bedmas. It may be the right learning style for some students but definitely not others. we focus more on the "right" way of doing things rather than guiding us along and not stressing us out with poor memorization techniques and long forced mathematical assignments.

[Anonymous No.5511028]

>>5511013
Just another word of advice: I know you're going the self-study route right now, and that's fine, but pure mathematics is hard to learn on your own, so it might also be a good idea to talk to a professor about what you're doing. They'll probably be able to give better advice than I can, and you might find someone willing to work with you more closely (as a guided independent study or something).

[Anonymous No.5511047]

>>5511028

I will attempt to dive in on my own at first. If I bump into learning difficulties (which I almost surely will) I think getting a paid tutor is a possible solution. The problem will be finding a good one.

I am not sure how eager will a professor be to help me provided that I will not be taking any of their courses until I achieve understanding on my own (mainly to be able to fully enjoy mathematics at my own pace).

Thank you for the support anon, I appreciate it.

[Anonymous No.5511092]

It actually is because they don't understand it. It doesn't help that math education is shit and doesn't teach people what's going on and instead focuses on memorizing formulae by rote. I enjoyed math in elementary school so much that I went out of my way to teach myself since the school refused to move past basic arithmetic for 5 years. I got up to algebra level by second grade (but honestly didn't understand variables correctly). Everyone refused to teach me anything but the curriculum, so math became an endless chore doing worksheets every day and having to show work for basic arithmetic or else getting a bad grade despite every answer being correct. By middle school, I was so drained that I forgot how to learn math and just went with the shitty teachers. This persisted until college. I failed my first attempt at calculus (professor never taught anything, just reviewed the answers from the previous day's homework). The second time through, my professor was amazing and reawakened my love for math that had been dead for over a decade. I went back and re learned all the shit I had coasted through in high school. I got one of the only As in undergrad in that class and this spring will be getting my masters in physics. Thank you, Dr Shemyakin, you crazy Russian bastard.

So, yeah, people hate it because they suck at it, but the reason most people suck is because the education system failed them.

[Anonymous No.5511103]

>>5509392
>mfw all this shit in lockhartslament about how amazing plane geometry is

I'm a maths major and can I say, everyone who hates plane geometry, trigonometry, elementary algebra has got it right. That stuff is pretty boring.

>what is the angle in this triangle
>solve log(x)=5 for x
>The pythag theorem in vanilla euclidean geometry

that stuff is a waste of time

Maths isn't interesting until algebra and analysis, anything before that (except arguably calc) is dry, useless and uninspiring, which is why most people hate maths

[Anonymous No.5511116]

>>5510979
which edition? 3rd or 4th? (spivak)

[Anonymous No.5511182]

I used to like math because it was so simple. It wasn't like Social Studies where you had to read and then write sentences to answer questions.
You just memorize how to see a type of problem, apply the right method, and bam you get an answer. Writing a few numbers is so much faster than writing out answers, and when you have 30 problems, it's like a little rush of success for scribbling out the numbers each time.

Now that I'm in college, I find it really dull. We think of numbers this way and we write that this way and then we can use it to solve things like this. It can be interesting but it's just a bit too far removed from everything else.

If I learn Chinese, I can speak to all these people in the world and hear their stories. I can enter a whole new culture, a whole new way of thinking.
If I study Literature, I can be taken to new worlds in my imagination and I can pore over the beauty and wit of the perfect word.

When I learn something new in math, I usually think "Oh, that's neat that it can come out that way." But when I study Freud's Moses and Monotheism, which is considering what it would mean for the development of Judaism if Moses wasn't a Jew but an Egyptian, and then I'm told it was written as Nazis began to gain power. The book then becomes both an interesting musing and a cautionary prediction of things to come.
The fact that something could be so subtle yet so glaringly obvious once you know, that just blows my mind. Same thing when my professor interpreted Heart of Darkness differently than how I learned it in high school.
>tl;dr I'm blown away by 2deep4u stuff outside math. I think other people are too.

[Anonymous No.5511188]

>>5511116
I don't know if there's a substantial difference between the two editions, and I don't remember which one I used. Probably safe to go with the newer edition.

[Anonymous No.5511190]

>>5508152
holy shit, are there math hipsters now?
kill yourself

[Anonymous No.5511211]

>>5511103
You know what's really boring? Number theory.

[Anonymous No.5511241]

>>5511211
What's with all the number theory hate on /sci/?

Are the grad freshman all jealous of Eisenstein and Gauss?

[Mplye !BVk1jryhxU No.5511268]

>>5508204
>Teacher effectively gives students the answer on the board
And yet people STILL GET IT WRONG.

I recently had a teacher for an Excel class tell me that 3*(4*5) is not the same as 3*4*5 because "removing the parentheses would make it give a different answer".

[Anonymous No.5511273]

High school dropout reporting in

Did really good at school up until about 15, then, my self-esteem took a huge hit when I struggled with math. I just couldn't get it. I tried but never really got any help. My dad just said "just study". So I did, still, never quite got it. He'd just get angry at me for not understanding concepts if he would try to explain them. That there pretty much destroyed the relationship, felt like I could never go to him for anymore help and yeah. Looking back, it's stupid, but as a kid, you don't see that. You believe everyone above you.

Eventually I just gave up on school all together, and I regret it to this day. I'm basically going over all this high school shit again in order to be able to try and get into a science degree, because this BA is shit and I don't want to work at McDonalds, and I am severely unhappy about all this.

Basically, it's not that I don't want to, or that I think it's 'too hard' or some bullshit excuse, it's that I DON'T GET IT. I used to do so well, but once it turned slightly more advanced, and the pressure kept getting applied to succeed, I got worse.

Basically, I feel really bad for not succeeding in school, for being a failure and for giving up and BEING JUDGED BY EVERYONE. But that pressure gave me so much anxiety I honestly got all tensed up, my throat would close up when getting asked to do complex stuff.

IT'S RETARDED. But I think a lot of people experience this.

Basically, I am going through all this shit again in order to prove to my dad I'm not a complete fuck up, and to become something I know I can be, I just let babby's first emotions get in the way. Shit is pathetic and fucking sucks. I just want to be good at something.

Funny thing is, I know I can do it, but I need to study on my own. I need to be away from people like my father who get angry at you and disappointed if you don't get things first try.

I don't hate math or science or anything. I love it. I just never got it.

[Anonymous No.5511296]

>>5509613
But the specialist is still going to need education to achieve such specialisation. So what happens is that we create a new field, involving understanding these machines and keeping them working so that the "accountants" can use them. All of the educated specialists take that job, while "accountant" becomes a job that a monkey pressing a button can handle.

The result to all of that, of course, will be lower-paid accountants, as the real money shifts to specialist accounting-machine maintenance and troubleshooting. So when accountancy becomes a low-paying unskilled field, people instead aim for the high-paying specialist positions. And as that role requires education, people who otherwise would have studied for accounting, will now study for the specialist position, because it's clearly a more desirable role.

What I am saying, ultimately, is if you want a decent job, then your job (as a general rule) will need to be something that not just anybody can do - and for the most part, this means it requires extensive education and training, admittedly maybe not for competence, but for selection from the field of applicants in the job market.

[Anonymous No.5511304]

>>5509822
Yeah, I can't get a real part-time job but I do free-lance tutoring in maths and physics. Can make $40 an hour, though I try not to charge as much as others because I feel bad ripping people off. My going rate is $30, less if two clients share a session. But you might need to be a year or so past high-school and studying in a relevant field for people to reckon you as good enough.

Usually I get the kids to do their homework/look over notes/review tests, etc. before I see them, and then have them ask me about what they weren't able to do/couldn't understand/got wrong in the test. Don't be afraid to go off on a tangent if you think the kid can handle it, and that it will help with their understanding. Also keep track of things like neatness, organisation, presentation of work, etc..

[Anonymous No.5511308]

>>5508085 >Time limits on tests are also BS when they're meant to push your speed limit, at least 3 times that should be allowed for the sake of meticulous thinkers

You have to train to work faster

[Anonymous No.5511321]

>>5509572
google ibm's watson super computer and it's current project of enhancing doctor's diagnosis potential.

[Anonymous No.5511327]

>>5509992
>I just dislike how dry and emotionless it is
>I prefer studying things which are all about human thoughts and feels
This sounds like an excuse.

Supposing it's not, you're being daft. Your emotions and feelings are worthless; they have no academic relevance. Proper philosophy must be analytical and logical, or else it will be just as wrong as we could maths based on one's feelings to be.

The only fields for which this is not true are the fuzzier Marxist ones (like Women's Studies) and non-academic creative writing/art.

[Anonymous No.5511332]

>>5510491
>why do they pretend the students to be competent in non-linear tasks
You haven't dealt with second-degree polynomials?

[Anonymous No.5511351]

>>5511268
>2012
>still performing associative operations
stay pleb

[Anonymous No.5511360]

>>5508085
The goal of university is to learn things. I'm sorry but mostly involves memory. Though improving one's general logical reasoning is a commendable endeavor, this is not the primary goal of university. To get up to speed with modern state of mathematics/science/engineering there is no choice but to rapidly learn (I say learn, not rote memorize) a lot of material.

If you need to meticulously think about the problems on tests it just means you haven't learnt the material thoroughly enough. If you don't become fluent at the basics, you won't be able to cope with real applications of the theory in a job/research position.

[Anonymous No.5511388]

>>5510979
I got Spivak's Calculus textbook out of the library, and I've been meaning to read it after seeing it recommended so many times. I think I'll finally do that.

[Anonymous No.5511553]

>>5511327

>Your emotions and feelings are worthless
>they have no academic relevance

I understand what you're getting at, but not everyone actually gives a fuck about academia.

[Anonymous No.5511570]

Well it's probably because most people realize that math is neither exciting nor challenging. Math is for awkward nerds who can't do anything more than operate a pencil without breaking something or injuring themselves.

Biologists and Geologists get to go on expeditions and have to be trained in how to survive the harshest conditions known to man. Molecular biologists, chemists, and engineers get to work with all sorts of interesting contraptions and samples in the laboratory, and they make real, tangible contributions to our society. Physicists get to unlock the secrets of the universe. Even computer scientists get to program on computers all day. On the other hand, math majors put graphite marks on pieces of paper all day, every day. The "pure" mathematicians have even differentiated themselves from "applied" mathematicians in acknowledgement that their field of study has zero practical value. Finally, you get paid next-to-nothing as a mathematician. Now I know that there are other occupations out there which are equally dull as math, such as accounting, and those who pursue these careers are as aware as anybody of this fact, but at least these occupations are useful and they pay well. Most "pure" mathematics is useless, boring and and doesn't pay well at all. It really takes a special type of somebody to devote his life to that.


The second reason people don't like mathematics is that all mathematicians are douchebags. Most of them are virgins and losers as well, but without a doubt, every math major that I've had a the displeasure of meeting was either pompous, stuck-up, effeminate, arrogant, anxious, creepy, or some combination of these traits. In comparison, biologists are outgoing, friendly people. Chemists and engineers tend to be less bubbly, but are usually down-to-earth, levelheaded individuals without any bizarre mannerisms. Physicists are often enjoyably eccentric individuals. But mathematicians? They are condescending assholes.

[Anonymous No.5511573]

>>5511570
Wow, you're mean dude.

[Anonymous No.5511578]

>>5508067
I'd say math is taught in a fucktarded way in most school systems. At least as I'm seeing it as an Amerifat.
Like Geometry class teaching you more formulae than ideas (This may be the fault of a bad textbook and a bad teacher, so is more anecdotal for me.)

Then, after I learned Trigonometry, fucking BAM! Geometry was my favorite shit.

It doesn't help that a lot of shit is enforced by the way standardized tests work.

[Anonymous No.5511581]

>>5511570
>But mathematicians? They are condescending assholes.

So what's your specialty, topology?

[Anonymous No.5511585]

I think that the main problem is the way math is taught.

I always heard my classmates say: "Why do I need this shit?".

Math should be taught with real world examples and applications.

[Anonymous No.5511590]

>>5509992
>dislike how dry and emotionless it is

Well, sir:

>I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well.
>He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree.
>Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing,"
>and I think that he's kind of nutty.
>First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe.
>Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower.
>At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty.
>I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes.
>The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color.
> It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic?
>All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower.
>It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.

[Anonymous No.5511617]

>>5508067
i'm horrible at math, but i love it
i'm not lazy, i just have a hard time with it.
i'm great when it comes to other things, but math was never a stsrong point for me

[Anonymous No.5511654]

>>5508067
it's maintstream to be bad at math and not bad at all, because many people are bad at it, also it requires to understand and remember the thinks that you were though beforehand, also, some people don't see any purpose in putting effort into it because they think they will never need it, and some people will actually never need it

[Anonymous No.5511672]

>>5511241
they're mad that they can't do math without uncountable sets

[Anonymous No.5511692]

>>5511654
>some people don't see any purpose in putting effort into it because they think they will never need it
This.

>and 99,9% of people will actually never need it
Fixed.
Surely people must know how to solve quadratic equations, Cartesian coordinate system, basic geometry and trigonometry, things like (a+/-b)^2 and maybe simple logs and how to integrate simple functions.
But tell me about Cauchy/Fermat/Riemann/etc. on practice. Or better yet some crap like divide a non-realistic sphere with imaginary properties to two same spheares and the like. You can't.
I needed math higher than secondary school exactly twice in my life: to find the area of curvilinear figure and to adjust Fourier's transform for spectrometer.

[Anonymous No.5511695]

>>5511692
Oh wait, that was about turning the sphear inside out. Oh well, same shit.

[Anonymous No.5511698]

Math is boring and hard for most people.

Not even like excrete math or calculus either. Just regular multiplying and dividing. No one wants to deal with that shit.

[Anonymous No.5511711]

>>5511570
>math majors put graphite marks on pieces of paper all day, every day
Why imply that applied maths majors do this? Pretty sure they spend more time programming than computer scientists do.

[Anonymous No.5511718]

>>5511570
I applaud You. Like it was taken right from my mind but with a great style. You, Sir, are awesome.

[Anonymous No.5511725]

>>5511718
disgusting ignorance of basic lab safety

[Anonymous No.5511732]

Math is cool and all, but I never learned how to use it to make my own theorems. I would have liked to have learned back in middle/high school, but I don't have time to learn that now because of my other hobbies at this point. I do some finagling with equations to make things look reasonable, but it's more in an engineering plug-n-chug kind of way. The more math focused portions of my job involve me finding a relationship for data, which usually means using a line of best fit and applying my knowledge in the field (physics equations du jour).

[Anonymous No.5511733]

>>5511725
It's really dangerous to have loose hairs like that.

[Anonymous No.5511743]

http://www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf
Sums up my feelings. A great read, though I disagree on some points (mainly, his structure of education). He does do a good job of explaining why people don't like math though.

[Anonymous No.5511753]

>>5511013
I love these books, but a book I don't see often reccomended (or used at all) is Hubbard's "Vector Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Differential Forms: A Unified Approach". Its a beautiful book with a focus on rigour, but also includes nice applications. I only can find the first edition online, and a friend of mine owns the forth. Extremely well written with nice comments (more useful Knuth math graffiti) to the sides of pages.

[Anonymous No.5511760]

>>5511718

[Anonymous No.5511771]

>>5511005
You have to know this is a hard path. When I got my copy of spivak when I was 14 (age doesn't really matter, I think), I was stumped on most of the problems of months. Seriously, after months are dabbling I was still unable to solve a lot of problems. Don't become disheartened though OP, because after looking back now, I can say its been one of the most rewarding experiences in my life. Reading tips I would give is firstly, doing ALL the exercises, not matter how trivial (most of them are not trivial anyways). Also, read extremely carefully, there's a lot of subtle language that you need to pay attention to to get things right. Statements in math texts are very precise. Another tip would be to feel free to dabble with concepts (this will come more naturally after a while). If you see an interesting pattern, keep looking. For example, almost all interesting properties pascal's triangle are easy to prove consequences of the binomial theorem (chapter two of spivak). Avoid giving up at all costs (by far the hardest part), don't let your textbook collect (digital?) dust. If you really feel like something is dragging, download another text (maybe in another field?). And read a bit there. I've been studying for two years (yes, I am 16), and I'm absolutely convinced that picking up real math has been one of the most rewarding choices I've ever made. I hope you have as much fun as I did (and still do), OP.

[Anonymous No.5511776]

>>5511771
Oh yeah, it might be better if you find someone else who shares the same interest so you can work together. If this wasn't /sci/, I'd be glad to share my email with you if you have any questions.

[Anonymous No.5511783]

>>5511553
So why do you even need to go to university to study philosophy? Material is freely accessible and there's no job waiting on the other end. Universities have been turned from places of learning, into places of training. So a degree that won't get you a job - especially when you can study the topics on your own - is worse than useless. If you have a passion for philosophy, but no interest in academia, then you are wasting your time and money.

[Anonymous No.5511785]

>>5511570
>The "pure" mathematicians have even differentiated themselves from "applied" mathematicians
Everyone always forgets statisticians.

[Anonymous No.5512693]

>>5511785
That's because statistics the way statisticians do it isn't math. It's science.

[Anonymous No.5512695]

>>5511698
>excrete
lel