This is more of an ethical question, sorry if it doesn't belong here. Logically, why is suicide considered universally wrong? Why are there so many nets/laws to prevent and/or punish attempts?

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Anonymous Thu Jan 3 19:55:11 2013 No.5408755 [DELETED]

This is more of an ethical question, sorry if it doesn't belong here.

Logically, why is suicide considered universally wrong? Why are there so many nets/laws to prevent and/or punish attempts?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 19:56:56 2013 No.5408756 Only an underageb& can be this edgy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 19:59:55 2013 No.5408761 File: 49 KB, 400x505, eat shit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5408756 I'm 25

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:01:40 2013 No.5408764 >>5408761 No, you are not. You are clearly a teenager.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:02:25 2013 No.5408766 Because being alive is how you do stuff. And stuff is generally regarded as a good thing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:04:10 2013 No.5408769 >>5408755 It's a property issue. The government owns you, and they don't want you to prevent them milking you until you're useless to them (which is why you are only allowed to an hero if you're terminally ill and only in some states).

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:07:26 2013 No.5408774 >>5408755 > laws to punish suicide where

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:09:25 2013 No.5408779 >>5408774 >fail suicide attempt >involuntary commitment to the mental hospital of the state's choice Everywhere.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:10:40 2013 No.5408781 >>5408774 People who commit suicide are sent to mental institutions and then are billied exorbitantly after they are released.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:11:11 2013 No.5408782 >>5408781 attempt*

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:12:40 2013 No.5408786
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>>5408755
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide#Absurdism

>fleeing from the absurdity of reality into illusions, religion or death is not a way out

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:15:11 2013 No.5408794 >>5408786 This is interesting, didn't think I'd get any decent responses, many thanks anon

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:17:40 2013 No.5408802 >>5408755 The only way to find out is to try it yourself and see what happens.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:18:25 2013 No.5408806 >>5408802 You seem upset

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:19:56 2013 No.5408807 >>5408755 Because nature is going to fucking kill you anyway so it seems to be a waste to end it early.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:21:10 2013 No.5408815 >>5408806 No, I am advocating science. Asking questions and then performing tests to find answers.

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:38:25 2013 No.5408852
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It's only considered universally wrong because people are only thinking of themselves.

When you ask the average person why they think suicide is bad, they'll tell you because it hurts the people that love the person killing themselves (i.e. the person you are asking this question too)

If you ask them "what if the person committing suicide is loved by no one?"

They will say the typical bullshit "Permanent solution to temporary problem"

Logically, there is no reason to live or not live. It doesn't really make any sense that any of us are alive in the first place. You could go through you life, or you could not, and truthfully, it would make no difference to you because the result is the same.

The thing that keeps everybody alive is faith, of some type. Faith that things will get better, faith that their kids will live better if they stay live, faith that if they stay alive God will reward them, faith that if they stay alive, they will enjoy life and be happy with it.

As for enjoying life and being happy with it, these are simply emotions subjective to the person experiencing them, as we all know. For someone to enjoy the 'experience' of life, they need to be able to enjoy the good emotions and bad emotions because they are both part of the experience.

If someone can learn to enjoy these, they can learn to enjoy life and not kill themselves. However, if someone is too strongly experiencing negative emotions, and is no longer enjoying them with no hope of escape, it is easy to see why suicide is considered an option.

Meanwhile, if you asked this same person "what if this person killing themselves was a pedophile?"

Their immediate response would be YES YES THEY SHOULD DEFINITELY KILL THEMSELVES.

People are morons and will enforce their will upon you if they think it will benefit them.

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:42:56 2013 No.5408865

>>5408852
Also, don't take my post to mean people don't kill themselves because of faith in God.

Just in general, faith in something. It at least provides the will to live. Also, when life is comfortable, it is harder to work up the will to kill yourself, especially considering you no longer need to work up as much will to perform daily tasks, as they are much easier to do today than they were in the past.

It takes someone brave and with a strong will to kill themselves in a surefire way (not using pills).

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:44:26 2013 No.5408871

>>5408755
It's not. It depends on context. It's a honorable way out in some cultures.

It was customary for the disgraced in ancient Rome, it's part of a code of honour in Japan, there's neither any universal judgement on suicide nor was it historically so.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:47:55 2013 No.5408881 Suicide is not illegal everywhere as claimed (e.g. the UK).

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:50:55 2013 No.5408887

Suicide causes lots of problems for others, you make a mess. I'm sure if you could commit suicide in such a way that it caused no problems for anyone, then it would be fine. Just continuing to exist is better for society than if you were to kill yourself, at least in most scenario's.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:51:40 2013 No.5408892 Overpopulation suicide is moral, procreation is immoral.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:52:26 2013 No.5408899 >>5408764 Goddamn, I really hate people like you.

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:52:56 2013 No.5408894

>>5408852
>Meanwhile, if you asked this same person "what if this person killing themselves was a pedophile?"

>Their immediate response would be YES YES THEY SHOULD DEFINITELY KILL THEMSELVES.

I think your point would be stronger if you replaced "pedophile" with murderer.

I think a lot of people on this site have nothing against pedophiles for various reasons, and in /sci/ of all places, theoretically the most logical board.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:54:55 2013 No.5408905 >>5408894 Fine, fucking murderer, my point gets across just as well. But modern society hates and fears pedophiles far more than murderers. If a murderer moves into the neighborhood, are you notified? No. If a pedophile moves in however...

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 20:54:55 2013 No.5408906 >>5408899 Why? Because you're an edgy teenager?

sage sage Thu Jan 3 21:10:26 2013 No.5408953

It is an ethical question. the "considered... wrong" gave it away. And it doesn't belong here. Nor /lit/. But more /lit/ than here at least.

Why is suicide considered universally wrong?

It isn't. Even in the U.S. there are states where assisted suicide is legal.

The reason why suicide is illegal is pretty complicated. It has to do with the loss of a tax-paying, productive agent, the externalities of cleaning up and taking care of the matter, and the notion that _most_ people trying to commit suicide are "compromised" either emotionally or intellectually and thus are not in the proper state to handle such matters.

Attempting suicide is illegal, committing suicide is not actually a crime. The institutions and psych wards that accompany being arrested for attempt suicide I don't argue are completely fucked in regards to rehabilitation, most of the time, but they always have been.

In general suicide is thought to be wrong due to either destruction of value, external cost, responsibilities to live and will to power. Many absolutist moral positions such as Kantianism or Christendom ban it, whilst others (such as Utilitarianism or Virtue Ethics) do not necessarily.

sage sage Thu Jan 3 21:22:26 2013 No.5408988

>>5408894

The difference of course is that everyone here in your audience happens to be a Paedophile.

> For someone to enjoy the 'experience' of life, they need to be able to enjoy the good emotions and bad emotions because they are both part of the experience.

Is that, then, to say, that Bad emotions may be enjoyable? What then makes them "bad"? If you mean instead a sort of ethical calculus between "bad" things and "good" things what then distinguishes the bad and the good? Some value, positive or negative, in degree? What is this value and to what is it ascribed?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 21:57:10 2013 No.5409055 >>5408906 Not OP, but there is a huge gap between "suicide is cool" and "suicide is always wrong and should always be discouraged". The fact that you implicitly equate one with the other shows you lack subtlety and like to argue for the sake of it.

Anonymous Thu Jan 3 22:06:41 2013 No.5409072

>>5408755
The only valid reason for prevent suicide, is that if the suicide was prevented, the person would later agree that this was a good thing.

If a person who is, for example, suffering from a permanent, non life threatening condition that renders them in constant pain, and psychiatrists prevent that person from killing themselves, I would consider that pretty immoral, almost as immoral as torture.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 22:18:26 2013 No.5409102 I would assume that it's considered wrong because as a society we bring up children to be productive or useful in someway. There isn't anything useful about someone killing themselves.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 22:56:55 2013 No.5409158 >>5408755 If you have read anything by Kant, he gives an interesting explanation. To strip one of their logical abilities is immoral. Therefore committing suicide is also immoral.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 23:18:55 2013 No.5409212 It's not universally considered wrong. Only aggressive parasites consider it wrong. These parasites must always be met with unforgiving physical counter-violence.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 3 23:39:10 2013 No.5409239 >>5408755 Behavior, i.e. why humans do stupid shit is psychology, thus not science, thus fuck off to /soc/ or somewhere where they care. Science deals with precise things.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 00:01:11 2013 No.5409275 >>5409158 Wouldn't it be immoral to strip someone of their rights to their bodies? It's not the state stripping one of logical abilities, it's the person who has them- so why is it okay to prevent them from doing so?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 00:13:40 2013 No.5409296 >>5409158 >To strip one of their logical abilities is immoral. If Cunt had said: drawing circles in red color is immoral, would you also repeat it like a parrot in oder to defend massive physical aggression against citizens?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 00:26:10 2013 No.5409325 >>5409296 not him but if he provided a well thought out, reasonable explanation, the perhaps I would advocate it. why is incorporating other people's views/points so wrong? do you believe being blindly dense is the only "true" way to think?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 00:37:10 2013 No.5409338

Because evolution made humans work as a group. It's in our nature to preserve the existence of the group and suicide threatens that. Today we see that suicide is generally due to chemical imbalances in the body that can easily be fixed.

>logically why

Because suicide generally conflicts with survival of the fittest. (Yes, I know about some species killing themselves to save the group. That is different.)

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 01:26:57 2013 No.5409393
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>>5409338
Evolutionary biology is an explanation of biological phenomena. It doesn't tell you what to do or not to do. You should know this.

>Today we see that suicide is generally due to chemical imbalances in the body that can easily be fixed.

No, it's not. Suicide can be an instrument to escape disfavorable conditions, such as poverty or illness. It is not just an expression of chemical imbalances.

To those who say suicide should not be an answer: Are YOU willing to pay the costs of living to the people whom you want to force to continue living?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 01:41:57 2013 No.5409416

>>5409338
>Today we see that suicide is generally due to chemical imbalances in the body that can easily be fixed.
That is the biggest load of bullshit ever, everything you think or feel is technically due to "chemical imbalances in the body" and giving a person drugs to destroy the person they naturally are and force them to be a zombie feeling the "proper" emotions at all times is not "fixing" them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 01:50:57 2013 No.5409429 >>5409212 >Only aggressive parasites consider it wrong. This is not even REMOTELY correct. I don't know if you were thinking only about economics or the dummy who said it was about conspirators against freedom, but it's way, way wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 01:51:57 2013 No.5409432 >>5409102 >as a society we bring up children to be productive or useful in someway. Probably part of it, but I doubt many people are thinking it is wrong because of the potential loss of a useful person.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 01:54:57 2013 No.5409433

>>5409055
>there is a huge gap between "suicide is cool"

There would have to be a huge gap, because there is nothing about suicide that is cool, period.

What are you suggesting, that people would admire someone who committed suicide? If he succeeds, such people might think only of how it was done; they don't care about the person at all, right?
And if he fails, they don't even consider him.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:01:57 2013 No.5409446

>>5409416
>giving a person drugs to destroy the person they naturally are and force them to be a zombie feeling the "proper" emotions at all times

Oh, wow, did you overreact to the wrong point.

>giving a person drugs to destroy the person they naturally are
We consider known imbalances in body chemistry to specifically NOT be the person they naturally are; you are defending the wrong thing if you defend the imbalanced person.
For instance, a diabetic balances his blood sugar; we do not want him to stop because his body is moving naturally along its 'proper' path.
Same with many hormones. We know what the 'norm' is -- and it isn't wrong to correct it.

>and force them to be a zombie
? Most such treatments do the exact opposite -- give them back control over their behavior, emotions, and provide balance.
The few that might need extremely calming treatments are often completely wigged-out and violent otherwise. Is that what you are whining about?

>feeling the "proper" emotions
Well, it's usually about the 'proper' degree of reaction, and almost never about changing the emotion.

>at all times
wow -- just stop hyperbole. It really damages your panicky emotional reactions.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:06:57 2013 No.5409457 >>5408988 I think it's more about contrasts. If we never had bad times, we wouldn't know when we were having good times. Wow this turned into philosophy real fast

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:08:57 2013 No.5409462 >>5409429 I ask again: Are YOU willing to pay for the cost of living of other people? If not, what entitles you to demand that other people continue living?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:13:57 2013 No.5409472 Sometimes the arrogance of you autists gets the best of you. If this were any other board I would mistake you as trolls OT have a good read http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:14:57 2013 No.5409475

>>5409393
>>5409416

Nope. We don't have it yet but with a perfect understanding of the human body I can always give you drugs that make you want to stay alive. If it is pain I can give you morphine. If it is depression I can give you anti depressants. If it is sickness I can give you antibiotics.

The human body is a gray box machine that we are still attempting to turn into a white box machine. If we manage to get past the nuclear threat to humanity we will probably conquer all diseases known to man.

Oh, and because you didn't figure it out... I was defining chemical imbalance as any imbalance which makes a human wish for his/her de-existence.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:18:57 2013 No.5409478

>>5409475
>I was defining chemical imbalance as any imbalance which makes a human wish for his/her de-existence.
Oh cute, and I define it to mean any imbalance that makes a human wish for drawing a red circle. Surely we must force medication for artists...

>If it is pain I can give you morphine.
Does not always work to prevent agony.

>If it is depression I can give you anti depressants.
Does not always work to prevent suicidality.

>If it is sickness I can give you antibiotics.
Ok, now you're just trolling.

And I ask again: Are YOU willing to pay the cost of living for strangers? No, you aren't. So why do you feel entitled to force them to continue living?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:22:57 2013 No.5409484

>>5409446
>We consider known imbalances in body chemistry to specifically NOT be the person they naturally are;
But that's wrong. A person is nothing more than the emergent state of their brain chemistry at a given time. Saying a person whose brain chemistry deviates from the range of normal is not who they "naturally" are is saying who the person fundamentally is is flawed and an ideal "normal" citizen is correct.

My issue with your post is from the retardedly ignorant statement that suicide is "generally" nothing more than the result of what you see as legitimate mental illnesses. That's total fucking bullshit, people who are actually really fucked up and violent or manic are a quite small proportion of suicides, if you really think they account for the majority of cases you're fucking retarded but well-meaning. But the majority of suicides are people who have fucked up lives that make them miserable. Sure putting them on zombie pills might make them back into good little worker drones but it's changing who they are, it's not "fixing" them any more than sitting around shooting heroin all day to stop feeling unhappy. Yes there is something wrong with most people who kill themselves that leads to them fucking up their lives and making themselves miserable but it's not a fucking brain disease, it's who they are and to change that to make them more "functional" requires replacing them as a person with a more socially acceptable version of them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:28:57 2013 No.5409490 >>5408781 Maybe in 'murika Not in 1st world countries though

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:28:57 2013 No.5409491

>>5409478

>Surely we must force medication for artists

It's called adderall.

>Does not always work to prevent agony.

What don't you get about a gray box machine?

>Does not always work to prevent suicidality.

What don't you get about a gray box machine?

>Ok, now you're just trolling.

What don't you get about a gray box machine?

>Are YOU willing to pay the cost of living for strangers?

No but I'll pay the cost of their treatments. And if I don't have enough money I'll pay for research on their particular disease. If they want better economic conditions I'll run for Congress and move the silly U.S. army budget into education , job creation, and health care.

>So why do you feel entitled to force them to continue living?

Because I once wanted to die myself but I seeked out help, went to school, and made a better life for myself.

There is no problem you can throw at me that can't be fixed with logic.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:32:57 2013 No.5409497

>>5409491
>Because I once wanted to die myself but
I do not give a shit about your shitty biography, the bodily autonomy of others is not a canvas on which you project your personal emotions and fake meaning stories.

I could not give less of a shit about your personal history or your bizarre dreams about politically or scientifically achievable utopia.

The simple fact remains: in the practical here and now, people like you are parasitic aggressors that violate the bodily autonomy of others, harming them greatly.

Oh, and if you're not willing to pay the costs of living for strangers, why should tax payers?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:34:57 2013 No.5409502 File: 18 KB, 379x374, will smith costanza.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5409158 >To strip one of their logical abilities is immoral >implying you can strip rights from the deceased

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:34:57 2013 No.5409503 >>5409497 Find me 10 people who wanted to commit suicide, were saved, and now regret it. Bring me those 10 names and I'll say you are right.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:37:57 2013 No.5409509

>>5409503
Why is the burden of proof on me instead of you? And why is my bodily autonomy contingent on what strangers say about *their* biography?

Completely non-sequitur.

You want me to live? You want to dictate what drugs I buy, take or not take? Then get MY CONSENT

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:41:57 2013 No.5409520 >>5409503 Those people wouldn't have regretted it if they succeeded. What does this suggest to you?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:42:57 2013 No.5409522

>>5409509

I don't have to get your consent. You do want to live. It's a trait that has been evolved into you over 10 million years. The problem is you aren't willing to define "wanting to live" as normal. I bet you define "not having sex with children" as normal? If no, then I know I can't win with you. You are an elite troll. But I"m guessing the answer is yes. You think it is normal to "not have sex with children". And most people think it is normal to "want to live". The difference is there is proven research I can cure the suicidal man Given another 500 years in medicine improvement it is likely I'll cure all known diseases.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:47:57 2013 No.5409535

>>5409522
>I don't have to get your consent.
Says the rapist to his victim. You are an aggressive parasite, say I to the rapist. I rest my case.

>You do want to live.
Not under all possible realistic circumstances. For instance, there are jobs that I don't want to do and that the welfare state would require me to do. Furthermore, there are social and health-related circumstances under which I wouldn't want to live. Finally, it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

>You think it is normal
I don't care about normal. I care about bodily autonomy and basic individual rights. I care about the civilisatory concept of non-aggression.

>I can cure the suicidal man Given another 500 years
I do not give a shit about your dreams of Utopia.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:51:57 2013 No.5409543 >>5409520 It says that people who commit suicide are mentally ill, and when settled down and thinking rationally, would not do it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:53:57 2013 No.5409553 >>5409543 Do you define thinking rationally as not wanting to commit suicide?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:53:57 2013 No.5409554 >>5409543 Another non-sequitur.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:53:57 2013 No.5409555

>>5409535

Are you a woman? Only a woman would get this upset over me wanting to save people's lives. I bet you still don't have the names of the 10 people that regretting being saved.

>You are an aggressive parasite,

Because I want to save peoples lives and give them something worth living for. I told you I'll take any steps necessary to save them or future victims of similar diseases/scenarios.

>For instance, there are jobs that I don't want to do and that the welfare state would require me to do.

You underestimate the will of people to live. Millions of people do similar jobs daily and they aren't committing suicide.

>NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

You still don't get that me trying to save you is programmed in me. Evolution dictates that the group try to save each other and further reproduce.

>I don't care about normal.

Yea, I've assumed you are trolling or retarded but this sentence is proof enough for me. I'm leaving this shitty thread and heading for /g/.

>I do not give a shit about your dreams of Utopia.

Lol. Now it's just sad.

>hur dur I don't care if you can give me everything I want and make me haappy.
>I just want to be sad panda bear
>hur dur hur dur

>>	0/10 0/10 Fri Jan 4 02:55:57 2013 No.5409559 >>5409555 0/10

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 02:59:57 2013 No.5409568

>>5409555
You lost the debate, quite thoroughly, and can't admit it. Just look at these cop-outs:

>Are you a woman? Only a woman...
(bizarre speculative ad-hominem)
>Because I want to save peoples lives and give them something worth living for.
(No, because you have no respect for bodily autonomy, individual rights and the foundation of civilization itself, which is non-aggression)
>Millions of people do
(Again, replacing individual consent with statements about random strangers)
>Evolution dictates
(No, it doesn't)
>Yea, I've assumed you are trolling or retarded
(Another ad hominem evasion - all my arguments were sincere and well-defined)

>I don't care if you can give me everything I want and make me haappy.
You can't. I told you already.

You know, I've talked to doctors. They are aggressive about paternalism, but surprisingly silent when I ask how I can get money without having to work shitty jobs.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:02:57 2013 No.5409573

>>5409484
>people who are actually really fucked up and violent or manic are a quite small proportion of suicides, if you really think they account for the majority of cases you're fucking retarded but well-meaning. But the majority of suicides are people who have fucked up lives that make them miserable. Sure putting them on zombie pills might make them back into good little worker drones but it's changing who they are, it's not "fixing" them any more than sitting around shooting heroin all day to stop feeling unhappy.

You are right, but no, I was not writing about the majority of suicides.
I was responding only to the 'chemical imbalance' issue (I think I wrote it several times in there).

People with lives that horrible should not only be allowed suicide, they should be assisted. Forcing people to live in misery (or, as you said, in passivity) is awful.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:04:57 2013 No.5409580

>>5409522
>You do want to live. It's a trait that has been evolved into you over 10 million years.

That's oversimplifying.
There is an innate will to live, but emotional context can work against that.
Logical necessity can, too.
The animal response is not the only one.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:08:57 2013 No.5409591 >>5409555 Good lord...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:11:57 2013 No.5409602 File: 134 KB, 629x960, MONKEY PUZZLES.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5409555

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:20:57 2013 No.5409617 File: 94 KB, 650x833, 4k1r4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5408852 >>5408865 typical Christan trying to emphasize "faith" as a common ground for other reasons why people live. Shouldn't you be praying or something?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:49:57 2013 No.5409667 >>5408755 don't we all hate those who cut to the front of the line?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:57:57 2013 No.5409688 People are really weird about death.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 03:59:57 2013 No.5409694

>>5409667
Definitely.
Of course, the ones who actually 'cut' think it's because we admire them, and whine that we didn't do it first.

Very hard to convince such people that it is part of living in larger populations. They always think it's about finding ways to take advantage.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:00:57 2013 No.5409697 File: 19 KB, 261x326, Russell-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5408755 >Logically, why is suicide... >logic >suicide Stopped reading there.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:07:57 2013 No.5409710 File: 49 KB, 440x633, ngbbs502dfd4a8b601.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5409667 This guy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:08:57 2013 No.5409713 >>5409697 And yet you still bothered to post. Did you have a point you'd like to make or an opinion you'd like to present?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:11:57 2013 No.5409718

"Normal" or "natural" has no place in a serious moral discussion.

Why is suicide harmful? Well, for one thing, it hurts those who love the person. How would you feel if your parent or son commited suicide?

However, suicide or attempting suicide is not usualy punishable. Also, overwhelming majority of people support suicide or euthanasia in case of great suffering.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:14:57 2013 No.5409721
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Because it's upsetting to the other workers.
The corporations that own you don't really mind losing one measly worker, but they mind the loss in others' productivity one suicide represents. It's not just a few weeks of people being sad, either. When suicides happen in a highly visible way or a lot of them happen at once, people start wanting to change this and that to prevent more suicides, and this is inevitably expensive.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:15:57 2013 No.5409723

>>5409718
If you move to another country, never to return, never to communicate with your old friends and family, it hurts everyone else in the exact same way. Should we ban people from moving, just because it hurts other people's feelings?

Yes, it does hurt others when someone commits suicide. But that's the sort of hurting that we all have the right to do. I have every right to dump my girlfriend, even though it hurts her.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:17:57 2013 No.5409724

>>5409718
>How would you feel if your parent or son commited suicide?
I wouldn't care, except that I would have to organize an annoying funeral.

I've always hated this argument: How would YOU feel if others didn't want to have sex with you / love you / go out with you / live in your basement with you...

You don't own other people, just get fucking over it.

>However, suicide or attempting suicide is not usualy punishable.

Unfortunately, it is, as has been pointed out before. Furthermore, the best drugs to commit suicide are illegal.

Read this:

http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.de/2008/05/is-suicide-illegal.html

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:17:57 2013 No.5409725

>>5409721
Don't be stupid, when people die other people spend. It's part of what I was talking about when I said people are weird about death. They do silly things like spend thousands of dollars on a padded box for a pile of decaying organic matter that will never be seen again only because it used to be someone you loved.

Please don't bring that silly conspiracy theorist crap in here. Humans are dumb enough as it is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:25:57 2013 No.5409731 Memetic evolution. Society invests heavily in any person in order to bring them to adulthood, and it would be damned if it didn't milk them for all their worth afterwards.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:27:57 2013 No.5409734

>If you move to another country, never to return, never to communicate with your old friends and family, it hurts everyone else in the exact same way.

And it is a shitty thing to do, indeed. Moreover, suicide is absolute and irreversible, so it is even worse. However, I agree that we shouldnt ban suicide if the person is of sound mind, I am just pointing out some reason for the restrictions.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:29:57 2013 No.5409737

>>5409725
I'm not preaching conspiracy, buddy, I'm saying nobody's hiding anything, they're doing everything out in the open, and nobody cares, because they see it all as inevitable and hopeless. Companies in China install suicide nets to catch roof jumpers instead of changing their practices, and the people of the world shrug their collective shoulders. Nothing we can do about it. Out of our control. We're all powerless. And aren't all these cheap products from China great?

>>	DO2 Fri Jan 4 04:48:57 2013 No.5409764 >>5408774 Supposedly it's a Federal Law to go through with the act, but the irony therin lies how to punish a corpse for Suicide. Don't have a source, just word of mouth from a former nurse.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:51:57 2013 No.5409767 >>5408779 > punishment get back to me when you learn what this word means

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 04:57:57 2013 No.5409779 >>5409764 > don't have a source I found your problem.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 05:02:57 2013 No.5409786

>>5409767
There is no practical difference between an official punishment and an inofficial punishment that is labelled with a euphemism.

I have seen how the police and the general population act and talk about victims of involuntary hospitalization due to suicidality. It is VERY obvious that it is indeed intended as punishment.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 05:32:57 2013 No.5409819 >>5409617 I don't think you quite fully understood him.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 06:05:57 2013 No.5409836

If anyone here ever plans to be an hero, just please, please, I'm begging you to just make it so that we won't have to clean your mess. It's troublesome to carry a body to a coffin you know? Not to mention the cost it will bring to your relatives.

At the very least, just don't cause trouble or bring inconvenience to anyone.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 06:26:57 2013 No.5409853 >>5409836 That's why the bodybag+nitrogen method is so good. It's painless and contains decomposition products.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 06:41:57 2013 No.5409874 There is no logical reason and it is not considered universally wrong. Christianity declared it a sin, and the current western view is a hangover from that.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 07:50:57 2013 No.5410006
File: 31 KB, 200x247, KT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5409819
Good logical response brah with execellent points and arguments to really prove your point.

I did understand. Having faith is having hope, and being hopeful is being unsure. I have determination and the desire to work for things I want, not having faith it will work out for me or have faith in some man made religion. Don't assume faith implies all things you want/work/achieve for, since that is what that other faggot (you) is saying. Go pray m8.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 07:55:57 2013 No.5410019 File: 520 KB, 873x682, verde (2).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Because a dead person can't pay taxes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 07:59:57 2013 No.5410031 >>5408755 >why is suicide considered universally wrong? Because otherwise, so many people would kill themself that the remaining would have to you know, make society a nice place to be in. As opposed to just use strong words and strictly forbid people.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 08:01:57 2013 No.5410038 Because jeebus

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 13:07:57 2013 No.5410640 >>5409543 Playing devil's advocate for a second: Why were they mentally ill before and are rational now? Why not the other way around?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 13:09:57 2013 No.5410646 >>5409522 >You do want to live. Given the situation people may well be willing to die for something, e.g. parents protecting their children from danger while endangering themselves at the same time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 13:11:57 2013 No.5410648 2edgy4me

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 13:22:57 2013 No.5410664 >>5408755 Because it's a big loogie in the face of everyone who has helped you live this long.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 13:47:57 2013 No.5410728 File: 33 KB, 500x388, stephen smith.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw white people problems >mfw OP took a wrong turn at >>>/lit/

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 14:08:57 2013 No.5410764 >>5410646 > parents protecting their children from danger while endangering themselves at the same time. Sacrifice is not suicide.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 14:11:57 2013 No.5410771 >>5410764 No, but I was replying to >>5409522 who claimed: >You want to live

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 14:41:57 2013 No.5410837 >>5410771 You can sacrifice yourself and still want to live though.

>>	Ivan !cURvwwkBa2 Fri Jan 4 14:57:36 2013 No.5410887 File: 34 KB, 396x403, Monster-Girl-Quest-General66.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5410031 English in the future please.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:03:50 2013 No.5410902

>studies on suicide

what a fucking joke. i love how people have the audacity to think that genuine suicide, and sadness by extension, is a one size fits all type situation. yeah, no shit sadness comes about from not getting what you want in life, but what a person wants in life can only be understood by that person.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:14:05 2013 No.5410924

>>5410664
And therefore we must all be prisoners for all eternity.

>>5409836
In fact, I fully plan to take other people with me just to protest that voluntary euthanasia is illegal. I will pay every second of involuntary pain and discomfort back to society, with massive interest.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:15:36 2013 No.5410927

I wouldn't say it's that universal.
In some cultures, given certain circumstances, it's actually the right thing to do.
In some other cultures there's no condemning of people who kill themselves.
In our western culture, given our judeo-christian roots, it's a horrible thing to do because you don't really belong to yourself (god/your government).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:16:36 2013 No.5410932 File: 95 KB, 1350x561, 1299498845873.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The most secular answer I can think of is that suicide is a waste of potential. pic related

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:22:50 2013 No.5410944

>>5410932
Potential you do not own.

It's like saying, if someone buys a flat screen TV instead of giving his money to charity, it's a waste of potential.

And then deciding that you have the right to ban flat screen TVs or lock people up and medicate them if they disagree with you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:25:35 2013 No.5410952 >>5410932 what if they dont want to use their potential are you going to make them? they can still be useful if they have a donor card

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:29:35 2013 No.5410961
File: 1.98 MB, 2112x2816, 1356700275268.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

(Q) Why is suicide considered wrong? Have we the right to leave the body?
>(A) So long as there are those that depend upon the body! And how hath it been given? No man liveth to himself, no man dieth to himself. No man hath been so low that SOME soul hath not depended upon, relied upon, same for strength.
>Thus, we find while there may be those experiences, these are rather of a selfish nature. But remember He gave, "Those that would offend one of these, my little ones, better that a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the depths of the sea."
>Then, when thine whole body and the purposes of thine mind as to do EVIL, well that they be separated from the channel or the means of bringing offense.
---
>Life is one; meeting self, opportunities. Not that line as of abuse to self or others but of MEETING self!
---
>Unless each soul entity makes the world better, that corner or place of the world a little better, a little bit more hopeful, a little bit more patient, showing a little more of brotherly love, a little more of kindness, a little more of long-suffering – by the very words and deeds of the entity, the life is a failure.
>-Edgar Cayce

tl;dr killing yourself is a solely selfish inhumane act, that for starters, isn't commensurate with what you've taken from the world to even give you the right to say you "want to kill" yourself. If you hat's what you believe, then you've become mentally ill of your own accord by reveling inside selfishness rather than conquering it. Running away from your problems and altering your reality to compensate personal deficiencies is the absolute most cowardly thing a person can do.

The least someone that lost can do is realize they have nothing TO lose in devoting one's self to others, unless of course, they're cowards. That's when you're a failure. I say this as someone who once contemplated suicide -for real- because my life fell that low, not as the sickening cry for help someone posting on 4chan would know.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:31:05 2013 No.5410969

>>5410887
If suicide were more readily availible and not heavily stigmatized, we'd loose so many people to suicide that we'd be forced to change our society so that people actually want to live here.

This in contrast to the current situation where suicide is an ultra stigmatized option that no one even considers before they're essentially broken and ready to violate all norms to get out. With the normal options being either to do the billion of fucking chores that are handed down to you or everyone will be disappointed in you and you'll lose whatever few priviledges that you may have. That is, suffer permanently at a low level, or rebel and suffer even more.

That is, the utility value of a person is held sacred today, and the actual subjective experience is entirely ignored.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:31:51 2013 No.5410966

>>5410932
as someone who went through an insanely depressive period for a couple years, this really misses the very provenance of suicide itself. the logic is working backward from the effects of suicide after the event has already happened, but doing that doesn't add up to why the suicide happened in the first place.

'not giving a fuck' is not why suicide happens at all.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:31:51 2013 No.5410968 >>5410961 Children are born without consent. Whatever claim you think you have on their existence, is fundamentally an act of aggression on your part.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:32:50 2013 No.5410970 >>5410961 Is that right? what selfish acts were you thinking that made you want to kill yourself?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:33:20 2013 No.5410974

>>5410961
>I wanted to kill myself but didn't have the balls so everyone who kills themselves is a coward! Coward coward coward only cowards kill themselves! See by living on and suffering for longer that makes me better than them! Cowards!
You're a retarded faggot and you have absolutely no right to judge others or make sweeping moral statements about what everyone HAS to do or else they're a bad bad person. Your positivist morality is on a near-Christian level of bullshit self-righteousness and willing self-delusion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:33:50 2013 No.5410975 File: 83 KB, 561x544, 1331665952716.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5410969 >suicide isn't available

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:35:21 2013 No.5410981 >>5410975 Yea, Wal Marts's out of stock.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:35:35 2013 No.5410982

>>5410961
>Running away from your problems and altering your reality to compensate personal deficiencies is the absolute most cowardly thing a person can do.
what is this, like being too far in debt?

what if you have absolutely NO problems whatsoever, don't owe anyone anything, and have nothing to do?

>>5410902

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:38:05 2013 No.5410990

>>5410975
Painless reliable suicide is harder than you think.

Yes, there are methods, but it remains a fact that the best ones are intentionally banned.

The purpose is to make people suffer if they want to flee your society.

It is crystal clear that existence here is not supposed to be voluntary. This really is a prison planet.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:42:21 2013 No.5410999 >>5410990 knives arent that bad

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:43:36 2013 No.5411004 Because then you can't contribute to the ECONOMY. ALL MUST CONTRIBUTE TO OUR MASTER

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:44:20 2013 No.5411006 >>5410999 >herp derp pain no bad If I stick a knife in you without your consent, it is usually considered assault. Yet you want to make voluntary death contingent on accepting exactly the same thing.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:45:20 2013 No.5411010

>>5409737
You are very strongly pitching conspiracy;
you are couching social norms against suicide in terms of the damage it does to a corporate economy.

I can tell you there is no person who objects to an attempt at suicide who is thinking about the corporate economy. It's just ludicrous to accuse the social norm of being motivated by what you wrote.
You were clearly and obviously ignoring EVERY personal and social effect to mention a vague conspiracy from a vague and remote controller of business.
It is sad, it is STUPID, and it is not reality.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:45:51 2013 No.5411011 File: 11 KB, 303x246, 1346037067499.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5411006 yeah, i do >implying there aren't guides >implying blood thinner isn't easy to get

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:46:05 2013 No.5411017 >>5411010 >implying corporate profits from whatever business Mr. Sad was in gives a fuck about people spending money on casks his first post is right

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:46:50 2013 No.5411015 >>5410990 What about a bullet through the top of your mouth straight to your brain? Seems pretty painless

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:47:05 2013 No.5411023

>>5411011
So basically might makes right, and governments should get a free pass on making "their" citizens feel physical pain.

Ok, might makes right.

If I ever commit suicide, I will choose a method that kills other people as well as me.

You want to play a raw power abuse game? Ok, I can play that too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:48:06 2013 No.5411027 >>5411023 wait what what the fuck are you saying i thought you were asking me if i was ok with assaulting myself

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:48:35 2013 No.5411024

>>5409786
>I have seen how the police and the general population act and talk about victims of involuntary hospitalization due to suicidality. It is VERY obvious that it is indeed intended as punishment.

Wow; I don't see that at all.
I see it as a controlling action because they are worried and fearful of further attempts.
Control is not punishment.
After the immediate action, it splits into either control over an uncertain person or social treatment / pharm treatment.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:48:51 2013 No.5411025 >>5411015 People survive even gut shots to the head sometimes. And not everybody can access guns.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:50:20 2013 No.5411033 >>5411024 >pays medical bills >can't really work >can't leave >won't be left alone >freedom

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:50:51 2013 No.5411035

>>5411024
I have seen policemen laugh in front of cameras, while imagining the humiliation and degradation of the person they just dragged out of her home into the involuntary care of psychiatry. I have seen footage of how people are restrained and medicated against their will, I have discussed with countless people who think suicide should be accompanied with extra pain because a person doesn't own his or her own life, no, The Collective owns it.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:51:05 2013 No.5411038

>>5410664
This is not an unimportant factor.
People want to know they are on the right path, socially -- a dropout suggests they are not.
People want to be assured others around them are content -- a dropout shows they are not.
People want to know their efforts and socializing have been worthwhile; for many those parts are not easy.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:51:06 2013 No.5411040

>>5410961
Speaking as someone who also have been close to suicide, your post is the worst kind of bile I've ever seen, and If I were standing on a pallet with a rope around my neck, hearing this drivel. I'd salute you with my middle finger and try to kick that fucking pallet into your fucking face as a final gesture of spite against your absolutely awful view.

Your entire post screams about you being entitled to my life, that after bearing insult and injury to the point of breaking, I should instead put on a happy smile and become a servile idiot that polishes the boot that have been driving my face into the mud the whole fucking time. Because that boot have totally been doing me a favour the entire time, and how dare I be so ungrateful against the boot to remove myself from its presence, so that it would have to find a different bastard to stomp on.

There's an awful lot of shit that I've read online, but your stands out as one of the few that really sickens me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:52:35 2013 No.5411041 >>5411035 you're bad at writing >while imagining the humiliation and degradation this is not a case you can make over the internet

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:52:35 2013 No.5411042

>>5411027
I am talking about the bans on good methods, leaving you with bad methods. If other people make your physical liberties contingent on your accpeting pain, they are inflicting pain on you.

After all, not committing suicide doesn't mean you won't feel pain, it means you will feel the pain of life and the pain of another form of death that is out of your control.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:53:05 2013 No.5411048 >>5411041 The policemen got off (laughing) while imagining the humiliation and degration in front of a camera. I have responded to the claim that hospitalization is not about punishment, while it is clear that it indeed is about punishment.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:53:51 2013 No.5411047

>>5410902
>>studies on suicide
>what a fucking joke. i love how people have the audacity to think that genuine suicide, and sadness by extension, is a one size fits all type situation.

Why do you assume suicide studies have just one attribute?
They actually are very comprehensive about causes and reasons, literally showing dozens of categories.

The only place where such studies get narrow is the recommended responses; they usually name only 3-4 responses once a potential suicide is identified.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:55:35 2013 No.5411053 >>5411025 I'm willing to bet nearly all those cases of people surviving a gunshot to the head were retards that didn't know where to aim. Care to link a case?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:56:06 2013 No.5411057

>>5411053
>retards that didn't know where to aim.
This is not an argument in favor of the suicide and euthanasia prohibition.

This is an argument AGAINST the suicide and euthanasia prohibition.

After all, how does it square with human rights if retards are forced to feel agony just because they are retards?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:56:21 2013 No.5411055 >>5410968 >Whatever claim you think you have on their existence, is fundamentally an act of aggression on your part. Only true if having children required no effort, investment, or emotional contributions at all. Which is NEVER true.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:57:05 2013 No.5411065

>>5411042
ok yeah that makes sense im all for not banning things, but i dont think you can ever ban sharp objects

>>5411047
they profile pretty fucking hard, which is understandable with people who fail suicides but it makes sense to me that suicide is something very personal and intimate

>>5411048
>while imagining the humiliation and degration
can you mind read

im not necessarily disagreeing with you btw

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:57:35 2013 No.5411060 >>5411055 No one forces you to have children. But the children are forced to be children. They never asked for it. You are the aggressor, not they.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:59:05 2013 No.5411069

>>5411053
>I'm willing to bet nearly all those cases of people surviving a gunshot to the head were retards that didn't know where to aim.
Do you know where to aim then? What structure are you aiming for in the brain? How should you hold the gun into your mouth? What if the calibre is too small? Maybe practicing with a mirror and broom before is a good idea??

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 15:59:05 2013 No.5411070

>>5410982
>>Running away from your problems and altering your reality to compensate personal deficiencies is the absolute most cowardly thing a person can do.
>what is this, like being too far in debt?
>what if you have absolutely NO problems whatsoever, don't owe anyone anything, and have nothing to do?

Well, you're making it sound like a balance sheet; that only satisfies a third of the potential obligations.
(People are social, logical, and emotional, at minimum.)

But the person you are responding to used a flawed word to describe it: cowardly.
It couches being alive in an emotionally-charged label which has no valid context.
(Try giving it valid context, folks -- try putting similar labels on the other attitudes.)

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:01:05 2013 No.5411080
File: 598 KB, 1600x1200, 1352377829710.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5410968
Children aren't born. Babies are.
" When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
>>5410970
Terminal fear of the kind that wouldn't be comprehensible to you if you were whacked deep out of your mind.
>>5410974
I didn't say any of that. That's what your own militant bias wants to project and hear, in all likelihood because you're one of those fitting willfully deluded cowards I just spoke of before you tried turning it round. The quote and my words are self-contained, and I won't reiterate either again for some simpleton bigot who should learn to take his own advice. If your reading comprehension, was only as high as you hold your own pretensions.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:01:35 2013 No.5411077

>>5411065
>can you mind read
No, they talked and laughed about it in front of a camera. It was clear that the woman was supposed to be punished for thinking or talking about attempting suicide. These were policemen who kicked down the door of a citizen who had not committed any crime.

And this attitude is not uncommon, I encounter it all the time: If I want to have the right to opt-out of society, other people want me to feel pain. This is intentional.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:01:35 2013 No.5411078 >>5411055 So because someone invested a tiny bit off effort into you, you are obliged to please them for all eternity.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:03:05 2013 No.5411085 >>5411080 >Children aren't born. Babies are. That's a semantic evasion, not an argument. The fact remains that your (and society's) unilateral claim on other people is non-consensual.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:05:20 2013 No.5411088

>>5411077
that's quite a bit different than what you said

>>5411070
what other obligations are there

>>5411078
>tiny bit of effort
you mean fucking or raising kids?

>>5411080
>Terminal fear of the kind that wouldn't be comprehensible to you if you were whacked deep out of your mind.
try me

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:05:50 2013 No.5411090

>>5410990
>Yes, there are methods, but it remains a fact that the best ones are intentionally banned.
>The purpose is to make people suffer if they want to flee your society.
>It is crystal clear that existence here is not supposed to be voluntary. This really is a prison planet.

Stupid and insultingly wrong.
First, the purpose of restricting simple suicide is to force reconsideration (at minimum) and give parts of society opportunity to help or fix the issues.
Remember, many potential suicides are from temporary or chemical causes.

Second, society gets nothing from making people who don't want to participate suffer. That's just you, interpreting difficulty in personal ways.
(Normal difficulties in life are not caused by retribution against you.)

Third, your summary about existence is bullshit considering all of the other participants -- people who do not consider suicide. Are you not aware that many people rejoice in life, and many people do very well, have many friends, contribute to their communities and have fun?
(How do those people fit into your whining that social participation comes with obligations?)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:07:36 2013 No.5411094 >>5411090 >retribution against you you are missing the point so hard

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:09:20 2013 No.5411096

>>5411023
>So basically might makes right, and governments should get a free pass on making "their" citizens feel physical pain.

I tried following your reasoning, here, and you seem to have got here because someone said a knife isn't very painful.
I have to assume you inserted a lot of other stuff yourself.

Might does NOT make right.
Wanting to cause pain or destruction is ALWAYS stupid.
Actually causing pain or destruction is always not allowed.

How are you not getting the broad picture that everyone has ever taught you, now that you find this tiny little corner of argument about suicide?

You have to make it fit with the stuff we have told you all along.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:09:20 2013 No.5411097 Because most people who kill themselves do so out of depression, which is recognized as a treatable medical affliction, and because once you’ve gone and done it, you can’t undo it.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:09:35 2013 No.5411098

>>5411090
>First, the purpose of restricting simple suicide is to force reconsideration (at minimum) and give parts of society opportunity to help or fix the issues.
No, a simple waiting and reconsidering period would suffice for that. You could force people to wait 4 weeks before they can access the drugs freely.

>Second, society gets nothing from making people who don't want to participate suffer.
Society gets to punish people who do not agree with being a part of the Collective. It also gets to increase costs and create akratic barriers for people who want to leave the Collective. I get communication even from complete strangers who want this aggression, even for complete strangers.

>Third, your summary about existence is bullshit considering all of the other participants -- people who do not consider suicide.
If you rape someone, it does not matter how many other people have consented to sex, or are rejoicing in sex, even if their partner was you.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:09:51 2013 No.5411100

>>5411080
>Cowards
That's the most retarded label you can ever give a suicider.
To start with, the act they perform require enormous willpower and dedication, the will to live is not something you casually just bypass.
Secondly, a coward is a negative statement, this is the last thing a suicidal person needs to be called.
Third, the person likely calls himself a coward already, so if you're trying to negotiate with a person that's sucking on a shotgun barrel and call him a coward, he'd be likely to reply(after removing the barrel for a brief moment) that "Yes, I'm a coward, and that's why I'm doing this, but it won't matter soon" Followed by him painting the celing with his cranial contents.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:10:20 2013 No.5411102
File: 598 KB, 1600x1200, 1352375951400.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5411040
You too. I couldn't care less what you think to be honest.

If you're so vile you would honestly kill yourself just to slur another person, then I think you didn't read past the first quoted paragraph, my ill brother.

So I'll also not bother reading past your first paragraph.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:11:20 2013 No.5411109 >>5411097 >recognized as a treatable medical affliction i bet you think ADD and aspergers are medical afflictions too >pills for profits

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:11:20 2013 No.5411110

>>5410944

Buying a TV and giving your money away are both likely wastes of potential. Human life has arguably the most potential of all. We save each other because if we ever found ourselves in that situation we would want to be helped too.

It's like telling a 14 year old girl that the 22 year old guy wasn't going out with her because of her personality. She can deny it all she wants but everyone else knows what the truth is and will take action to stop it.

Of course the person committing suicide thinks it's a good idea. Everyone else knows that's a lie.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:11:36 2013 No.5411111

>>5411096
>I tried following your reasoning, here, and you seem to have got here because someone said a knife isn't very painful.
And because the best painless methods are intentionally banned and suicide attempters are physically attacked, and because the omission of suicide inevitably leads to more pain down the road. And government does the violence.

That is not hard to understand.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:13:51 2013 No.5411118 >>5411111 >the best painless methods i would like to clarify that the best painless methods also involve other people accepting it

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:14:05 2013 No.5411121

>>5411035
>I have seen policemen laugh in front of cameras, while imagining the humiliation and degradation of the person they just dragged out of her home into the involuntary care of psychiatry.

You saw people laughing in an emotionally charged situation when they are usually VERy uncomfortable; this is normal. People find weird ways to avoid their stronger emotions; it is common to find people laughing through them.

But you cannot assume or describe what they are imagining, nor why.
You also cannot assume they knew anything about what was going to be his treatment -- they wouldn't know, and they haven't the opportunities to follow up.
Talk to people who actually do this; don't watch a video and make up what they are thinking. (And talk to people who respond to disasters about laughing; they feel guilty or silly afterward, but it is not because they find the disaster funny.)

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:14:06 2013 No.5411125

>>5411110
>We save each other because if we ever found ourselves in that situation we would want to be helped too.
I don't. And you don't have consent to project your imaginary wished onto complete strangers, resulting in physical aggression.

>Of course the person committing suicide thinks it's a good idea. Everyone else knows that's a lie.
It should be very clear to you now that this is not true. I don't "know" that, and neither do you.

I'm still waiting for the forced life crowd to pay the costs of living to complete strangers. It's funny how they think they can create obligations and not even PAY THE FINANCIAL COST of that obligation.

I point a gun to your head and make you drive a Porsche, which is already a human rights violations, and then I make you work like a slave to pay for the Porsche, because, you see, I cannot possibly be responsble for your vehicle costs, now can I...

Start giving a luxurious free income to all people on the planet. Do that BEFORE even CONSIDERING focing them to live.

And then you still don't have the right.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:14:50 2013 No.5411123 >>5411102 >How dare you insult my pretty quotes! Your quotes are retarded and so are you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:15:20 2013 No.5411126 >>5411121 >>5411077 you are slow

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:15:36 2013 No.5411128 >>5411118 No, just that the free sale of certain drugs no longer be banned.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:16:05 2013 No.5411133

>>5411042
>I am talking about the bans on good methods,

I saw that, but you are attributing the wrong reason for the bans, assuming a cause and logic that doesn't make any sense and would have been impossible to build.

The difficulties about access to simple methods like poisons is about society finding the potential victim and trying to help.
It really is NOT about controlling his fate, making him part of a machine, or punishing him for independent behavior.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:17:20 2013 No.5411136

There is no logic behind suicide. It is cowardly to not know the difference (ie being dead) while others grieve. Some people will also convince themselves that they inadvertently influenced you to do it and suffer for the rest of their lives because of your selfishness.

It is wrong because to kill yourself causes great stresses and impacts others unnecessarily.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:17:36 2013 No.5411138

>>5411128
what, like cyanide? even i would have to admit that it'd probably be a bad idea to openly sell cyanide pills. i think people should go through a LITTLE more trouble, like, closing your garage door, or filling up a warm bath

i'd much rather have family support than have cyanide legalized

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:18:06 2013 No.5411143 >>5411136 i suppose its better to live your life knowing every one of those persons pities you and sees no potential in you and goes out of their way not to avoid you. im sure their happier knowing that this loser exists

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:18:06 2013 No.5411144 >>5411109 >caused by chemical imbalances and/or genetic defects >not medical afflictions Sure.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:18:36 2013 No.5411141

>>5411133
>It really is NOT about controlling his fate, making him part of a machine, or punishing him for independent behavior.
Yeah, it is.

It would be easy to grant access to suicide drugs after a 3-weeks waiting period in a situation where the person can't use the drug to harm others.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:19:06 2013 No.5411147

>>5411060
>No one forces you to have children.
>But the children are forced to be children.
>They never asked for it.
>You are the aggressor, not they.

There is no aggressor; no one is causing either state.
You are trying to force a definition on something that cannot have that characteristic.

Children have to be children because of the normal states of growth and learning, regular stages of life.
That is not punishment, aggression, or indoctrination; it's the way our form of life grows.
It also is not painful for most children, so it is hard to see why you characterize it as a punishment.
Most people enjoy and value their childhood. Many find it hard to leave those attributes behind.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:19:06 2013 No.5411148

>>5411138
Like barbiturates. The drugs used to euthanize dogs (which have more rights than humans apparently) and which is used by Dignitas in Switzerland (only for terminally ill people who pay exuberantly, which is retarded since the drug doesn't cost much).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:19:35 2013 No.5411145 >>5411143 to avoid you*

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:19:35 2013 No.5411146 >>5411125 A man is about to jump off a bridge. Only you are next to him. Are you really going to walk away? Are you that cold of a human being?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:20:50 2013 No.5411151

First off, what in the world makes you think suicide is morally right?
We as humans aren't meant to take the life of another human being or ourselves except from natural causes
Suicide is also probaly the highest act of cowardliness, besides life is really too good to give up already believe it or not there really are good things in life out their.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:20:50 2013 No.5411152 >>5411144 >implying everyone who is alive has perfectly 'balanced' chemicals >yfw purposefully unbalancing chemicals is a business with trannies n shit >yfw trannies usually end up with depression

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:21:05 2013 No.5411158

>>5411125
>And then you still don't have the right.

Thank God we don't decide the rules of society on the whims of idiots like you. Most people agree if you are suicidal that you should be offered help. Most people will go out of their way to help others in need.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:21:35 2013 No.5411156 >>5411143 Pity is the mark of insecurity. The only people who care about you are those with blood relation and those who have provided/drawn direction to/from you. Nobody else gives a shit; rightfully so.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:22:21 2013 No.5411160

>>5411065
>they profile pretty fucking hard

? Of course they do; they are trying to analyze large groups of people.
if you're going to suggest people shouldn't be categorized, or that it is bad for people to be analyzed, you're just wrong.

It is not bad to be put in categories.
It is not bad to be evaluated or summarized.
People do this to try to understand, and that is always good.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:22:50 2013 No.5411161

>>5411147
You're still evading the point that it is non-consensual, and because it is non-consensual, it cannot possibly form an obligation on the person who is affected by it.

If you cannot bear that your children might choose suicide, simply don't create children. Your emotions do not mean you own them.

If I feel sad if a certain girl doesn't sleep with me, am I entitled to rape them?

The bodily autonomy of others is not contingent on your emotions. If you disagree with that, you are an aggressor.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:23:35 2013 No.5411163 File: 104 KB, 500x650, 1326998017885.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5411156 >The only people who care about you are those with blood relation >implying whenever i go outside, it isn't really easy to hide depression

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:23:50 2013 No.5411164 >>5411158 >you should be offered help Funny how euphemisms can make aggression sound so consensual. This is like calling rape "an offer of sex".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:24:05 2013 No.5411166 >>5411163 >implying family isn't exactly who i was talking about

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:24:06 2013 No.5411167

>>5411057
>After all, how does it square with human rights if retards are forced to feel agony just because they are retards?

Wow; on another part of the thread one guy is trying to say we cannot dump everyone into one misunderstood category,
and here you are making a broad and stupid categorization for all suicides.

You cannot assume they are retards.
You cannot assume they feel agony.
You cannot assume none of them would reconsider the attempt.
You cannot assume they are not treatable.
You cannot assume they would not be grateful and contribute all the rest of their life; many do.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:24:06 2013 No.5411168
File: 1.93 MB, 1500x1500, 1352579289494.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5411100
Nobodies arguing the "what if's" or the perspective of the suicider.

Why would we? This isn't a question of empathy for one who already lacks it. This is a question of ethics. Nothing more, nothing less.

And people commit suicide to opt out their problems with a free ticket. There's nothing courageous about suicide. And you don't exactly see people who want to kill themselves taking the Burning monk's way out do you? No. And if they did, NONE would have the moral and physical resolve to martyr yourself for a good cause, without even uttering a sound, as only someone like that could.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:25:05 2013 No.5411174

>>5411160
ok

if depression is caused by something like, no one understands me, then the person doing the evaluation has to be PRETTY DAMN LUCKY to pin point exactly how this person feels, or else it will pretty much cement how suicidal they are

psychiatrics are impersonal fucking patronizers

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:26:50 2013 No.5411176 >>5411167 You cannot take things out of context like that. The retards part was a specific response to someone who said that only retards survive self-inflicted gunshots (and therefore we don't need to allow better methods).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:27:05 2013 No.5411183 >>5411164 >This is like calling rape "an offer of sex" Except nobody thinks like that. No fucking body but you keep trying to tie the two together.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:27:35 2013 No.5411180

>>5411147
>It also is not painful for most children, so it is hard to see why you characterize it as a punishment.

Come ride my rollercoaster. It starts out really nice for the first 20 minutes, then you come to the tunnel of wasps, followed by the blood fountains and it finishes with a high speed drop through an industrial cryogenic freezer giving you a wind chill equivalent of -800°c.

But it starts out really nice, so It's totally okay if I force you to ride it!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:27:35 2013 No.5411181 >>5411168 you are so fucking dumb. do you think someone who's ready to die is going to give a fuck about courage? do you think that monk was thinking about courage?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:28:50 2013 No.5411186 >>5411183 >>5411174 their help is the opposite of what is needed

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:30:50 2013 No.5411192

>>5411183
You still want to operate without consent. You still want to violate bodily autonomy. And you want euphemisms that make it sound like that's not a human rights violation.

You want aggression, but not be called an aggressor. So you constantly appeal to an expectation of policital correctness that uses euphemisms, to make aggression sound as if it weren't aggression.

And I shit on that, because my bodily autonomy is non-negotiable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:32:20 2013 No.5411197 >>5411183 >Most people agree if you are suicidal that you should be offered help what if this person did not ask for help? if 'most people agree', does that override the person in question's desires?

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:33:50 2013 No.5411199

>>5411168
>And people commit suicide to opt out their problems with a free ticket.

What you are saying is this
>Man that guy that ate a a pound of sleeping pills, he sure had it so fucking easy. We should've stopped him and put him through some more suffering.

Your wording states precisely this. He "opted out of his problem": a good thing.
With "a free ticked": a priviledged, attractive token.

You are saying that suicide is too good for people, so we can't let them have it.

Ivan !cURvwwkBa2 Fri Jan 4 16:35:20 2013 No.5411206

>>5410969
>more readily available
you're not very good at this are you.

to your point, the idea that people avoid suicide because it is societally condemned is probobly atleast partially legitimate, but the idea further still that condoning suicide would raise the quantity of deaths to the point at which it is a national issue is silly.

As I see it it boils down to this:
do you like your relatives and loved ones better dead?

in reality I would wager it is this dynamic on a large communal scale.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:37:35 2013 No.5411214 Religion has ruled men for aeons. It only makes sense backlashes of it still exist. We're getting there OP, but you and I will never see the result.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:38:20 2013 No.5411218

>>5411192

>my bodily autonomy is non-negotiable

Of course it is. You share resources with other people and to protect the whole of society sometimes requires negotiations. It's called society. We force each other into rules so everything doesn't turn into total chaos. For some reason you think because I'm "aggressive" I want to rape you. No. But you can bet I'll force you to get vaccinations. You can bet I'll lock your ass up if you drive drunk or assault random people. And you can bet I'll offer you help if you are feeling suicidal. Most people are conflicted about suicide which is why it is possible stop them. It's a permanent solution to what is likely a temporary problem.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:39:35 2013 No.5411229

>>5411085
>The fact remains that your (and society's) unilateral claim on other people is non-consensual.

That's not much of a 'fact' -- you haven't done a single thing to support that perspective.
You haven't shown a claim
You haven't shown an obligation
You haven't shown how childhood is avoidable
You haven't shown any way for a child to grow without obligations to others
You haven't shown anything unilateral (unless you are merely siding adults against their own offspring) in society.

It's like you are trying right now, off-the-cuff, to build a whiny argument that children shouldn't ever be obligated into adulthood.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:40:35 2013 No.5411235 If you see society as a live being it's obvious, it tries to preserve itself as long as possible, this includes avoiding the loss of its parts intended as people.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:43:05 2013 No.5411253

>>5411111
>And because the best painless methods are intentionally banned and suicide attempters are physically attacked, and because the omission of suicide inevitably leads to more pain down the road. And government does the violence.
>That is not hard to understand.

It's not only incomplete, it is presuming almost all suicide attempts have the same kinds of causes, which is obviously nonsense.

I explained to you that controllable methods are banned for a different reason.
I explained why deflecting a suicide attempt often leads to a very different life, and a very pleased and useful person.
I see no reason for your blame against government, or why you call it violence -- your story only showed preventing access to simple suicide methods!

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:43:36 2013 No.5411250

>>5411218
>But you can bet I'll force you to get vaccinations.
And you can bet I'll make your life a living hell for that.

>You can bet I'll lock your ass up if you drive drunk or assault random people.
Yes, but these are responses to violations of other people's autonomy on my part.

>And you can bet I'll offer you help if you are feeling suicidal.
Again you use the euphemisms. No one is talking about consensual offers, they are trivial. We are talking about non-consensual hospitalization, medication and bans on the free use of good suicide drugs, as well as criminalization of voluntary euthanasia. All of this is non-consensual, it has NOTHING IN COMMON with an "offer".

And when all is said and done, and the question is who pays the costs of living for that person, the answer always boils down to, "Why, that person is responsible for his or her own life, they must work and pay those costs themselves, we could not possibly be responsible..."

Pay a free income to all people on the planet, to cover their costs of living, from your personal savings. If you can't afford that, how could you POSSIBLY be entitled to enforce an obligation to live on them?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:44:20 2013 No.5411256 >>5411229 Children never gave informed consent to becoming a part of the society.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:48:35 2013 No.5411272

>>5411250
>And you can bet I'll make your life a living hell for that.

You can't seriously be this stupid. Nobody wants diseases like polio. The kids a few decades ago had no choice in the matter. It was "aggression" for the better of their lives.

>We are talking about non-consensual hospitalization, medication and bans on the free use of good suicide drugs, as well as criminalization of voluntary euthanasia.

Because it's a permanent solution to a what is likely a temporary problem. In the MAJORITY of cases people don't want to die even when they say they do.

>who will pay

Society pays taxes. I've never complained about paying my taxes. I vote yes on taxes that help others. I understand that taxes are out there to help everyone. It's called society but obviously you don't get it.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:48:35 2013 No.5411273

>>5411206
>do you like your relatives and loved ones better dead?

If they chose to and beat me to it, they should have the right.
If there was a 50 cent suicide booth on every second corner, it might also be easier to speak about it too, to get that fucking help everyone so much insists on. Not to mentino alleviate the subsequent drama that's associated with it today.

If I in todays world casually mentioned I'm considering ending my life when out for dinner some evening, it would be awkward beyond belief.

And If I did commit suicide, well, a fuckton of drama were to be expected, luckily I'd not be around to witness it.

Am I selfish? No. I just took a decision for myself, by myself. You're the ones throwing a circus over it.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:50:35 2013 No.5411281
File: 1.24 MB, 2049x2788, 1355987338305.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5411181
lern2read

>>5411199
No. I'm saying it's the coward's way out of escaping their real problems. Exactly as I've held since the beginning. Do I need to spell out the context of everything I say here? You friends should browse /lit/ instead of /sci/.

And "suffering" is relative, personal to the subject in question and how they handle it. There's a religion on this believe it or not. It's called Buddhism. And killing one's self prematurely will just yield more suffering for one or others. It's never a viable option to deal with life (unless under the aforementioned sociopathic instances).

"Actually, we have no problems-we have opportunities for which we should give thanks... An error we refuse to correct has many lives. It takes courage to face one's own shortcomings and wisdom to do something about them."
- Edgar Cayce

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:51:36 2013 No.5411285

>>5411272
If you perform medical procedures on my without my consent, I will physically retaliate against the people who enforce it. Irregardless of what the law says. No matter what justifications you concoct in the privacy of your own head, my bodily autonomy is and remains non-negotiable. I will treat anything else as ordinary physical aggression and retaliate physically.

This ends my communication.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:52:50 2013 No.5411289

>>5411136
>There is no logic behind suicide.
Sure there is; it stops the pain, or it ends that person's concerns.
Maybe you mean the balance of logic isn't in favor of suicide, but you'd have to acknowledge some more aspects to ascertain a balance.

>It is cowardly to not know the difference (ie being dead) while others grieve.

That is not cowardice at all; it is ignorance, or inconsideration.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:55:51 2013 No.5411297

>>5411285
>and remains non-negotiable

Except it's not rofl. I don't understand how you don't get this concept. It's like you find yourself lost in the woods on a cold night. Frost bite sets in and when the paramedics find you they have to amputate. You aren't able to give consent. They will save your life regardless of what you say.

For the last time. Your bodily autonomy is negotiable simply because you live in a society that has deemed such interaction acceptable. It doesn't matter that you think it's unfair. You are literally the 0.0001% that thinks so.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:57:05 2013 No.5411305

>>5411138
But imagine what would happen if such things were legal to sell:
we aren't talking about simple suicides, then, we'd be talking about trivially easy homicides.
Homicides so easy and simple that aggressively-minded teens could sprinkle poison on food, or in drinks, for dozens of people at a time.

'Thrill-kill' morons would decimate the population in hours; we could never stop them.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 16:59:20 2013 No.5411309

>>5411289
> It is cowardly to not know the difference (ie being dead) while others grieve.

So now that the person is dead. He feels no pain anymore, and everyone else does.
And before he was dead? He felt terrible agony and suffering, while those now crying were blissfully ignorant of how he cursed the world for ages.

Nice, everyone else around me right now are cowards.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:00:35 2013 No.5411314

>>5411141
>It would be easy to grant access to suicide drugs after a 3-weeks waiting period in a situation where the person can't use the drug to harm others.

Our societies are moving toward acknowledging genuine reasons for accepting suicide.
We aren't there yet, and we shouldn't try to force sudden drastic change.
I am confident people will eventually accept it.

Politically, all we need to do is keep the issues in open discussion.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:07:06 2013 No.5411336

>>5411161
>You're still evading the point that it is non-consensual, and because it is non-consensual, it cannot possibly form an obligation on the person who is affected by it.

That is BULLSHIT.
Not all things have to be consensual.
Certainly it is nonsense to say the beginning of a person's life has to be consensual, or his being raised to adulthood on his own terms.
"Consensual" can ONLY ever be applied to parties who understand the terms and options -- it is a legal truism. It means nothing at all in situations where one party does not have full and complete knowledge of his obligations (like a child).

>If you cannot bear that your children might choose suicide, simply don't create children. Your emotions do not mean you own them.
We aren't talking about ownership; that is your loaded term. We were arguing obligation. You have not acknowledged the simple fact that children require help from others; you are just ignoring it.
Your argument seems to be that once people have a baby, they should let that baby reject them and raise itself without any obligation, and that the parents are required to accept that decision.

>If I feel sad if a certain girl doesn't sleep with me, am I entitled to rape them?
You are claiming CONSENT is the most important aspect of applied law. So, no, you get to do nothing.

>The bodily autonomy of others is not contingent on your emotions. If you disagree with that, you are an aggressor.

Again, completely off your own point
You are arguing CONSENT is critical, and consent requires two parties.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:10:05 2013 No.5411345

Suicide is when a person has problems and loses the ability to cope.

People think no matter what you should be able to cope with everything that happens to you.

It's bullshit, but that is why they think that way. It's only self righteous bullshit in the end.

Suicide is something we should be proud of having. It means you are always in control of your life. When people stop you from committing suicide, you truly have become a slave.

Sorry for the edgy.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:11:21 2013 No.5411348

>>5411180
>But it starts out really nice, so It's totally okay if I force you to ride it!

Still not making any sense.
Children have neither the information nor ability to make a forward-thinking decision about whether to live.
It is not a matter of aggression; that is simply wrong, because there is no OTHER way to describe the event.
(That is, there is no 'non-aggressive' way for a person to begin life, no middle ground, no way for a child to raise itself, no way for a child to have the capabilities to reason.)

And, now that I think about it, apparently you haven't got that ability, either.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:14:05 2013 No.5411362

woah, educated intelligent westerners are on the point of breeding themselves off of the planet and your pushing to allow suicide?

we, the intelligent and aware, need to breed so prolifically that we either help the human race by (at least) sheer osmosis, or use our gifts and forward sight to move into new niches. or both or war or whatever.

just for the love of god /sci/ dont have just one designer kid or some crap like that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:14:05 2013 No.5411363 >>5411168 People on their pedastool who never had to suffer are great.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:14:51 2013 No.5411361

>>5411256
Exactly; and since they NEVER CAN, your claim that they must is ridiculous.

Since children can never make such decisions, society puts rules on the ways that they must be raised; giving obligation to the parents (who decided to have one) and guidelines for how it must happen (educated, fed, shown social skills).

All this BECAUSE of the fact that children cannot consent.
It is how society compensates.
Notice, however, nothing about an obligation to society.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:17:06 2013 No.5411369

>>5411281
Your logic is retarded.

You state you want to deal with problems in some manner. That means you acknowledge the fact suffering is a thing that happens in life.

Life itself is suffering, and people to certain degrees all suffer to other degrees. We can also cope. When a person cannot find a method to cope but still has all those, as you call them "real" problems how is suicide not a viable answer? Because some arbitrary "everything is going to be better if you continue to suffer!"

Life is not a fairy tale. Some suffering just leads to more suffering. Sometimes the things we use to cope keep us just as fucked up and sad as the things that depress us. There is no magical solution and nobody is going to save us, and if we could all always save ourselves there wouldn't be any fucking problems in the first place.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:18:39 2013 No.5411372
File: 1.96 MB, 391x237, deal_with_it.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5411361
>Notice, however, nothing about an obligation to society.

The obligations are all implied. Resources are being put into you and in exchange you become a valuable member of society. It's simply how society works.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:20:35 2013 No.5411376 >>5411372 >valuable member of society >thousands of dollars for education, housing, feeding, videogames, cars, what have you >flippin burgers

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:21:05 2013 No.5411380 >>5411376 For every 1000 hamburger flippers there is 1 who creates a multi-million dollar business. Next you're going to argue we should only educate the kids that show promise since obviously they only end up flipping burgers.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:23:20 2013 No.5411387 >>5408755 > why is suicide considered universally wrong? It interrupts the flow of life of the survivors. They suddenly have to go to funerals and feel sad and all kinds of awkward shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:26:50 2013 No.5411405 >>5411345 It's interesting that your post is preceded by 210 other posts and yet you still managed to be the first one to mention coping...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:27:05 2013 No.5411409 >>5411372 >The obligations are all implied But I never agreed to any obligations, you can fuck right on off if you think giving me shit without my asking for it in any way obliges me to do anything for you.

Anonymous Fri Jan 4 17:33:35 2013 No.5411425

>>5411409

It's not a choice. You get to live and in return you give taxes, your time to jury's, and you obey the laws that everyone agrees too. Again, IT'S NOT A CHOICE. Yelling at me doesn't change the fact that 99% of people are just fine living with this arrangement. Yelling at me doesn't change how society works but keep trying dude.

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/sci/ - Science & Math