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/sci/ - Science & Math

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5319064 No.5319064 [Reply] [Original]

You have ten seconds to justify to me why math past a middle school level is required in most American (I don't know about the rest of the world) schooling programs.

Why should anyone be required to learn what the extraneous solution to a radical equation is, when is that ever going to help anyone who isn't going down a career path that involves math in a large way. I'm sorry if this seems angsty, but I've given it some thought recently and it pisses me off that American children who suffer with math, who struggle with math, and who hate math, have to go through it. High school students drop out of high school BECAUSE of math when they don't even NEED it, if those students actually pass through their math classes with Cs and/or Ds depending on the school, and go to college and do the same, what are the chances that their career will have ANYTHING to do with "high level" math? Little to none.

>> No.5319079

To show that you can do it. Math is a difficult subject to master. Seeing that you can, shows dedication, intelligence & determination. Everything an employer wants.

>> No.5319088

>>5319079

When is the last time you applied for a job and the employer asked you a complex math question, and your potential to get hired weighed on that question?

>> No.5319089

>>5319088
>the point

>your head

>> No.5319092

>>5319089

Seeing that you have a college degree is the only thing the employer cares about, I severely doubt they care specifically about math.

>> No.5319097
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5319097

>>5319092

>> No.5319110

Math exercises the brain and promotes logical and critical thinking (or is supposed to). These are important qualities for every citizen in a democracy.
It's the same reasoning as why we have PE in schools, except a hell of a lot more important for society at large.

>> No.5319116

>>5319092
>Seeing that you have a college degree is the only thing the employer cares about.
Nope, wrong.
Just because you suck at Math doesn't mean you can drag it through shit. It takes intelligence & determination to be great at it and it's one of the most fundemental subjects we have. It's the basis of most human understanding.

>> No.5319121

>>5319110

>(or is supposed to)
>Democracy

Well there's your problem

>>5319116

And just because I suck at math doesn't mean I'm stupid either, every other subject in school I aced, every test I took I got nothing lower than a 90.

People don't need math.

>> No.5319133

>>5319064
I majored in civil engineering and have never used anything other than trig. Math knowledge is highly overrated.

Here are typical math students, someone posted this a while ago. Always makes me laugh.

http://math.stanford.edu/photos/students/index.html

>> No.5319135
File: 19 KB, 400x300, 1349633428332.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5319135

>>5319121
>>5319133

someone is a bit mad that math is too hard for them

>> No.5319137

Math now = financial literacy later. If you don't know how numbers work, you will always be subject to the machinations of people who do.

>> No.5319141

>>5319137
There are a lot of things you need to study to be a good investor.

High level math is not one of them.

>> No.5319148

x>>5319092
You, apparently, have no idea how much math may benefit your life. A lot of college/uni degrees include math courses, even degrees you would be surprised to use maths in. (such as psychology with statistics)

The same argument about employers may be applied to any subject. An employer is never going to ask when was the death of Napoleon, but you still learn it, nor will a prospective employer ask about the impacts of Shakespear on the English language.

Just because something is difficult does not mean you should not learn it. Math is a really fucking helpful tool to use in life, whether it is a business you are running or using a computer. Most technology is based on math and it is important to learn it.

One may also argue that math is a part of modern culture and it is important to understand math (and sciences) to be on top of what is happening in the many different areas of research. As an example I would say somebody reading the newspaper comes upon an article with lets say a study done on the correlation of gay sex and cancer, or lets say a survey on happiness. There will be some graphs given and a dude with little knowledge in math wouldn't be able to really make any other informed opinion on the subject except for just agree because he/she would not have the tools to analyse the data/graphs properly. With just a little knowledge about mathematics you may see if there are any major flaws in the layout of the data such as cutoff points of graphs. The more you know the more you may analyse ofc.

High school maths is NOT "high level" math.

Heavily related to the topic:
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

>> No.5319154

>>5319141

Define high level math.

>> No.5319165

>>5319154
You can feasibly learn common investing and heavy stock trading and get by with just basic algebra.

I guess if you were a broker or something it would be useful to know more, but most of the really high powered stock trading shit is all automated now anyway.

>> No.5319166

>>5319141
oh shit dude you gun dun goofed.

have you even peeked inside an economics/ business textbook? Most of them have a lot of mathematical concepts relevant to the field. Most of the maths which is (surprise surprise) high school level. not higher level maths. high school level. get that through your head.

>> No.5319169

>>5319165
well if you are thinking of high school students specialising earlier than now, i am with you. I really want the dumb people out of maths classes so if you were to propose that i would totally be with you :::)))

>> No.5319172

>>5319166
You don't have to work in Economics to be financially educated.

>> No.5319177

>>5319165

You are very trusting, even naive if you believe this to be true.

>> No.5319183

>>5319064
> bad at math
It's called homework you little shits.

>> No.5319184

>>5319172
nor do you have to be educated in any field to work in it, you just got to know how to do it. great argument there chump.

It still doesnt erase the fact that it helps greatly to know higher maths.

you wanna know who get employed in economics more than those trained specifically for it here in the UK?

Mathematicians and physicists. Suck on that for a while why wont ya.

>> No.5319188

It's a sad day when illiteracy is considered taboo but being bad at math is dinner conversation and the subject of jokes.

Math is just as important as learning grammar, and higher level maths are important to understand concepts of logic. No one writes like Shakespeare or Keats but we read about them anyway because it teaches you the importance of craft.

Stop whining.

>> No.5319192

>>5319166
>oh shit dude you gun dun goofed

We have Indians, Asians, and Russians to do grunt work and be code monkeys. I worked in finance, our boss was a history major from Amherst College and Yale MBA.

>> No.5319199

>>5319192
one exception. wow man. that is great. check other posts now why wont ya : 3

>> No.5319204

>>5319188

>Math is the only way to build foundations of logic and develop them

pls

>> No.5319214

>>5319204
did he say that? no he didnt.

>> No.5319220

>>5319148
>An employer is never going to ask when was the death of Napoleon, but you still learn it, nor will a prospective employer ask about the impacts of Shakespear on the English language.

I was once given a group test for a job that did ask stuff like this.

>> No.5319221

>>5319204
I didn't say that, nice strawman.

Your argument is made by thousands of high-school and college students on a daily basis. "I'll never write like Hemingway, why do I need to read The Sun Also Rises?" "I'll never solve problems or do math like Einstein or Planck, why do I need to learn calculus?"

It's an argument that stems from a lack of vision and understanding. It's an excuse.

>> No.5319234

>>5319220
>I was once given a group test for a job that did ask stuff like this.

well then i stand corrected, but then employers may also ask random stuff about high school maths too. this works both ways.

>> No.5319236

>>5319064
You're right. But why stop at just math? Lets ask all 5th graders subject by subject if they like it. If they don't, they don't have to learn it. You certainly don't need a minute of history class to get a job anywhere. Same with foreign language. And we all know English majors don't get jobs. So no education or jobs for anybody. But hey at least McDonalds will have a ton of employees!

>> No.5319239

I didn't report this thread, because it's technically about math, but if you don't like math than please don't post on /sci/. We do like math here.

That being said
>it trains logical thinking
>it trains formal thinking
>it trains rigorous thinking

Middle school and highschool are meant to give children a solid basis, not just to teach them what they are interested in, that is what college/university is for. f.e.: I'm not particularly interested in history, geology or languages either, but I do think it is good that every child has a basic training in those areas in middle- and highschool, even though I didn't like it at the time. It's not about learning as much as you can about stuff you'll need in your job later (most people are also not even sure at that age what they're going to do anyway). it's about giving every single person a basic education in as broad a spectrum as necessary and since mathematics handles universal truths, it is indispensable in that list.

PS: You probably also think you'll "never come across math later in life", but actually you will, all the time. You just won't recognize when you do. That's why you will continue to buy lottery tickets because "somebody has got to win", lose a lot of money on one of the many "bettingstrategies" in roulette, use faulty logic to support major life decisions, don't recognize a Simpson's paradox when you see one and make false conclusions based on that fact, etc..etc..

>> No.5319241

>>5319199
>one exception. wow man. that is great. check other posts now why wont ya : 3

You must be Gook or a CurryNigger. Most guys that run things went to Ivy League schools or elite LibArts colleges. Did you look at those picture of the Stanford math students? Those ugly fucks are not going to work meeting clients they will go in the basement writing C++ code with their Paul Wilmott books for company.

>> No.5319248

>>5319241
>Most guys that run things went to Ivy League schools or elite LibArts colleges.

If you actually take a good look at the world, you'll realize this is not a positive thing at all.

>> No.5319257

i think we can all agree that the educational system is flawed, and no its not a cop-out or an excuse of any sort. im not specifically referring to the US either, its a global problem.

>> No.5319263

>>5319064
Get back to /x/ where you belong.

>> No.5319269

>>5319241
Was the point of my post to say that mathematicians were born to lead? I think you should learn to read, seriously. The point is that people with a background in economics with maths are more likely to be in charge of big companies than people with none, even though exceptions exist.

I would really like to see which CEO from a major company (say from forbes' top 500 list) is a LibArt student and how many of the leaders of companies are actually people from places like Harvard business school etc. I know you said Ivy league but libart students have nothing to do with actually leading big firms.

>> No.5319274

>>5319257
the educational system is flawed imo too but surely you arent going to say that maths is not important to learn?

>> No.5319280

>>5319257

The math curriculum and it's presentation is outdated, developed at a time when people needed to be 'computors' and accountants & so on in the 19th c. There have been attempts to modernize the curriculum to reflect the rise of computers and electronics, but at the same time a lot of the west takes it's education for granted, because they don't know what the alternative is anymore. Maybe this is a multigenerational lesson that needs to be learned again.

>> No.5319286

>>5319064
Only a certain type of people complain about learning stuff every 12 y/o can learn.

I wonder who they are.... it hink it starts with re..

>> No.5319289
File: 177 KB, 400x502, 30225263.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5319289

>>5319241
>math illiterate
>2012

>tfw fat angry white males who work as a programmer for a shit IT company talk about their learning disabilities.
>dat autism

>> No.5319290

>>5319286

...regrettable people!

>> No.5319292

>Why should people who are bad at math have to suffer through it??

They shouldn't. Schools and society should have the courage to call them stupid as they are and leave them behind.

>inb4 edgy

If you can't grasp middle school mathematics then honestly I can't see why I should invest in you at all.

>> No.5319293

>>5319280
well i do agree on the fact that the curriculum is outdated. i havent thought about it that much though, could you tell me some stuff that should be changed in your opinion? this is just out of interest.

>> No.5319304

>>5319293
Do you even Lockhart's Lament?

>> No.5319313

>>5319304
no. but it seems you have no actual points, you are just against the current system cos u are. gj man.

>> No.5319327

math isn't taught properly in American high schools. At least not in my experience. They tell you to memorize things and then regurgitate it without understanding. If you want to understand why you're doing what you're doing then you have to look elsewhere.

>> No.5319330

>arguing on a board as if your opinion will change shit
Fact is fact. Math is a part of studies at all level. Don't want to deal with higher level Math? There are plenty of majors that do not need it. Just know that the concepts gained from studying Math are highly helpful, not invaluable.

>> No.5319336

>>5319327
It's funny how you would probably call yourself highly educated, yet still you make hasty generalizations.

>> No.5319347

>>5319336
But in this case, it's true. I remember when I was in my High School Algebra class. My teacher told us that as long as we got 50's on every test and did the homework we would pass the class. It truly is memorization and regurgitation.

>> No.5319361

>>5319293

I think there should be a lot more emphasis on how the math relates to money management and personal finance at all skill levels in high school. This is already featured in math classes to an extent, but it needs to be developed more, and maybe tied in cross-curricular ways to history & current events for more advanced learners. It would be really good to show more clearly how the math can be used as a tool in sceptical thinking in finance, as well as science and engineering. Just an opinion, but i taught high school math for a couple of years, and i'm a biomedical researcher now, for what that's worth.

>> No.5319365

>>5319313
Not that Anon, but I think you should damn well read it.

http://www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf

>> No.5319372

>>5319347
>In your case, it was memorization and regurgitation.
In my high school, we didn't learn theorems/proofs for all topics, but when we did learn them for several topics. There was no memorization unless it was for a formula. Even then, knowing the formula was of no use unless you understood the content.

>> No.5319387

>>5319361
i like your ideas a lot. this is what maths teaching in finland is about in high school in a few courses, but a lot of students have opted out of maths at this point :||| makes me so sad

>> No.5319489

>>5319121
>And just because I suck at math doesn't mean I'm stupid either
Yes it does. And if you're talking about high school, acing every subject means nothing more than that you actually did your homework and weren't born with severe birth defects.

>> No.5319495

>>5319269
Here are a few off the top of my head.
Howard Stringer Sony Harvard history
Paul Lee ABC TV Oxford Portuguese/Russian
Les Moonves CBS Netword CEO Bucknell Spanish
Jeff Katzenburgh ex-NBC TV Harvard history
Roger Faxon EMI Entertainment Johs Hopkins international relations
Brady Dougan Credit Suisse University of Chicago economics
Jamie Dimon JPMorgan Chase Tufts psychology/economics
James McNerney Boeing Yale American studies also Harvard MBA
Andrea Jung Avon Princeton English literature

All Harvard B-School grads from the same class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Dimon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Immelt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Burke_%28businessman%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Mandel_%28hedge_fund_manager%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Klarman

>> No.5319509

>>5319495
Don't feed the troll... only a retard doesnt know the ivy league mba programs are tickets to the old boy's club

>> No.5319515

I kind of agree, OP. My major doesn't require a lot of math and I'm naturally bad at math, mostly because I have poor memory and I don't use any of the math outside of tests/assignments.

>> No.5319516

>>5319121
if you can't pass high school math, you are both stupid and lazy, and you deserve only shit-tier jobs

>> No.5319528
File: 8 KB, 100x141, Elizabeth_Goodman[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5319528

LO at Stanford math students. Does anyone here want to be stuck working around those types of people?

I have dibs on Elizabeth Goodman. Pic related.

>> No.5319540

>>5319515
Memory shouldn't be required for math. If you can't do math it means you can't think. Putting it the opposite way, learning to do math is essentially learning to think and solve problems. Why should anybody trust someone who is incapable of thinking?

>> No.5319542

so we can beat the asians.

>> No.5319548

>>5319540
I have to memorize formula and how to do all that so for me, yes, it requires memorization.

>> No.5319560

>>5319548
And which field exactly are you going into that requires some math, but that you seem to think requires less memorization than math?

If you say any other STEM major I'll laugh.

>> No.5319564

A better question is why is political science a requirement when transferring from a CC to a CSU/UC?

>> No.5319569
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5319569

>>5319542
You should not think of it that way, as you are not competing for the same types of jobs.

Xin Zhou is not getting hired for a front office Wall St. job; I do not care how good at math he is.

>> No.5319571

>>5319365
The problem with Lockhart's Lament is that it explains the problem thoroughly, but doesn't provide any methods of solving it.

>> No.5319573

>>5319560
It's not so much the memorization alone, but it's memorizing stuff solely for tests and then I will never use it again in my life.

>> No.5319580

>>5319564
Because they want you to be well rounded. If you do not like the GE requirements go to ITT for a vocational degree. I went to a community college and then majored in CompSci/French at a UC school. My knowledge of other things led me to a great sales career.

>> No.5319590

>>5319580

But I want to just be in a cubicle and code for the rest of my life. That's what the people who majored in Business are for.

>> No.5319609

The only truly practical math course for 99% of people is a calculus based statistics/probability course.

>> No.5319629

>>5319569
>does not into international clients
>thinks he is more valuable than players with multinational backgrounds
>2012

>> No.5319959

Basic business cannot happen without basic mathematics. (I.e. calculating break even)

>> No.5319960

because most useful things need math

>> No.5319983
File: 22 KB, 222x395, forgot_algebra.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5319983

>> No.5320017

>be math, the fundamental basis of all sciences
>get called boring & useless by highschool art shitters

Please be americans

>> No.5320029

>>5319133
>Math
>Overrated
Holy shit your retarded

>> No.5320042

I'm terrible at unit-less math for some reason.

Calculus was one of my worst subjects. I need to visualize a problem and think of how to solve it in order to find a solution. I can't do that with just numbers.

Physics is my best subject, dealing with a lot of the same math. Thankfully, I don't think I'll need to do calculus again, but that's fine because I don't think it's necessary for 99% of the population.

>> No.5320069

>>5320042
>Physics is my best subject, dealing with a lot of the same math. Thankfully, I don't think I'll need to do calculus again

Do you know why Boromir died? He tried to do physics without calculus.

>> No.5320073

>>5320069
>Boromir
I'm saying calculus becomes much easier for me when in the context of physics.

>> No.5320091

>>5320017
Nobody's calling it useless, just not that practical. I like to regard math as a tool that can be used to solve problems in other fields. Math for the sake of math seems rather banal.

>> No.5320095

>>5319064
A misbegotten attempt to make up for the failings of society, because we couldn't bring ourselves to just do eugenics like we should have.

>> No.5320102

Implying that math is any less useful than any other subject taught past middle school...

>> No.5320111

>>5319092
>Seeing that you have a college degree is the only thing the employer cares about

degree is WORTHLESS

I say this as someone paying $14k a semester to attend an out of state school

>> No.5320192

>>5319495
My God these Harvard B School alumni. I guess Thurston Howell III was right to look down on the other Ivy League schools.

And LOL at the Boeing CEO majoring in American studies. WTF would that even be?

>> No.5320232

>>5319064
For the same reason that compulsory education was introduced, we are required to teach so and so course to people who may very well drop out and work a vocational job regardless of whether or not they receive a diploma. We have to cater to everyone, including little Tyrone who has trouble with simple multiplication even though he's in grade 10, and the Jewish kid who manages to ace every test and do all the bonus assignments. If we dumb down everything to cater to the lowest denominator, it would hold back everyone else. For all you know, a signficant amount of people may want to go to college. They need a decent foundation of math in order to achieve that, especially those pursuing a STEM degree. At the same time, we can't have everyone learning complex analysis in high school because it's simply above the ability of most students to comprehend said material. A middle-road is needed, thus our current education system is born and will be kept that way for the foreseeable future.

>> No.5320242

>>5320232
autistic/10.

>> No.5320277

>>5320232
>complex analysis in high school because it's simply above the ability of most students

The only people who need that are electrical engineers that focus on controls. Otherwise worthless subject in the real world.

>> No.5320305

Quite a bit of mathematics is not practical to the average person on a daily basis. However, learning mathematics beyond basic algebra is still beneficial. Mathematics is an extremely precise language, although abstract; one must learn to communicate clearly and precisely. Mathematics is logical and therefore reinforces thinking logically. When it comes to proofs, one must think critically and be creative.

I understand that some people are just inherently not good at mathematics. This is why I think high schools should offer an alternative for such students: philosophy. This subject can also improve the skills mentioned above.

Of course, mandatory mathematics and philosophy would be the best.

>> No.5320316
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5320316

>>5319133
>majored in civil E
>nothing past trig

was your department even accredited?

>> No.5320329

>>5319564
look up the major entry requirements for transferring to the UC you want to go to, don't waste your time fucking around with IGETC

>> No.5320372
File: 63 KB, 550x427, street_art_80.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5320372

>Why should anyone be required to learn what the extraneous solution to a radical equation is?

to prove you're not an idiot.

that a problem?

>> No.5320681

>>5320316
>was your department even accredited?

I meant on the job I have never used anything other than trig. in school i took the standard math/physics stuff.

>> No.5320737

>>5319064
Any rational productive activity nowadays involves automation. Automation involves programming, and math is required for programming.

If you never needed high school math in your life, that just means that you haven't done anything productive in your life, or that you did it in inefficient way. Unfortunately, nowadays that is considered normal.

>> No.5320800

Because, the only people who complain about math or say math is hard tend to be retarded.
citations: >>5319064
niggers
hicks
spics
etc.

>> No.5321069

>>5320737
Did you see that list of CEOs. How much math do you learn/use as an American studies major at Yale (Boeing CEO)? Same for the guy running the CBS TV network (Spanish ).

>> No.5321094

It's part of human history and achievement, not that necessary unless you plan on expanding our current knowledge but hey if you don't want to learn go back to your mudhut and dying at 30

Fucking pleb

>> No.5321135
File: 22 KB, 250x352, 1345680954033.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5321135

> have ten seconds to justify
And that, right there, is why the rest of the world thinks Americans are generally retarded. Seriously, you can't process information in more than ten second packets?

This unwillingness to think leads to a popular understanding of easily corrected but critical issues like:
> Hurr durr fiscal cliff durr
> Derp we need guns in case the king of England! herp
> Those spics taking jobs we don't want are ruining 'murrica! Build a fence!
> Drugs are bad, m'kay

Maybe if you worked on some math problems that required more than 10 seconds of continuous attention, you'd train yourselves to become functional, thinking people.