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/sci/ - Science & Math

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5259900 No.5259900 [Reply] [Original]

Hey guy.

What if the Universe never existed?
As in. The mass that existed in the big bang. what if that never came into being. same with the energy. What if the vast empty space never existed either?

What if there was truly nothing. TRULY NOTHING. Can you even fathom it? If the very atoms and energy that makes up your nerve cells never existed to conceive of the problem.

I mean. Think of the universe. all of that matter and energy. and think about when time was at absolute 0. and imagine if that single tiny cluster never existed, along with the space. Never ever existed. Like, there was no universe.

What...
What would that even MEAN?

>> No.5259909

I don't know what you're on but I want some.

>> No.5259912

I don't quite understand. the question.

>> No.5259917

what?

>> No.5259920

It would mean.. uh... wouldn't mean anything I guess?

>> No.5259922

It... would mean there was no universe?

>> No.5259928

There would be no one to give it meaning so it wouldn't matter

>> No.5259929

>>5259922
>>5259920
Well yes I know what it would literally mean. but I find myself unable to visualize the notion in my head. whenever I try... it's like my brain tases itself back to reality.

It's so weird.

I mean, i started thinking about all of my experiences, and of the experiences that billions of humans and other organisms have had. and if they just never happened because the universe never existed.

And my brain sort of didn't let it happen.

>> No.5259944

woah

dude....

pass the bong dude

>> No.5259972

The fact that what you postulate is not true is proof of the existence of God, in the sense that the definition of God is some uncaused presence of order throughout all of existence. That's basic Augustinian logic.

>> No.5259979

Typical.
If a tree falls down in the woods and there is nobody to hear it
does it make any noise?

>> No.5259982

>>5259972
that's not quite what i was implying.

>>5259979
but what f there was no tree, no forest, no continent, no planet, and so on for all of creation?

>> No.5259997

>>5259972
there was no postulate describing some uncaused presence of order throughout existance lol,

if anything his "postulate" is the proof that god DOESN'T exist, assuming the naivety of OP

>> No.5260006

>>5259982

you're missing the point. regardless of what there is, you aren't. so there is not

>> No.5260014

>>5259979

Does the act of a tree falling down cause vibrations?

>> No.5260040

>>5259979
Schroedinger sold his cat and bought a tree?

>> No.5260060

>>5259929
Welcome to the limitations of human thought.

>> No.5260094

>>5260014
see:
>>5260040

It's a lot more difficult to explain than "The tree made vibrations, therefore, it had to have fallin."

>> No.5260102

OP, try to visualize a color that you have never seen before. See how it is impossible? It's the same with what you are trying to do. You are trying to visualize something that is impossible to visualize, so you can't.

Nothingness is impossible, because nothing is something in itself.

>> No.5260109

I've tried the same line of thinking as you a few times OP. I've come to the conclusion it's beyond the realm of comprehension. We're at the system from inside the system. We will never be able to look in from outside.

>> No.5260112

>>5259929
You're not worthy yet to possess the understanding you're wishing to attain. That feeling is just your brain saying "fuck you".

>> No.5260114

>>5260109
*looking at

>> No.5260115

>>5260102

Except we can think of ultraviolet o r gamma or microwaves without actually seeing. So bad analogy

>> No.5260116

>>5260115
But you can't visualize them, which was his whole point...

>> No.5260125
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5260125

>>5259929
this happens to me too, anon. ever since i was a child i will once and a while think about if nothing had ever existed and even if there was nothing at all...there is still that nothingness that can be named. and why is it more natural for something to be rather than nothing at all..and then i get that same feeling..like my brain shocks me back to reality...its a euphoric feeling like nothing else.

>> No.5260131

>>5260125
I have the same kind of feeling but I really couldn't consider it euphoric. Well the build up is, it feels like you're on the cusp of some shocking revelation of epiphany and then you're slapped back into reality.

It's more of a let down if anything. Like there's something there waiting to be grasped but you barely have the ability to even begin reaching for it.

>> No.5260137

>>5260131
i think your description is more complete. yes. i just never really had the ability to put it into words. i've never ever attempted to explain it to anyone before

>> No.5260141

>>5260125
>>5260131
OP here. I'd compare it more like fapping, but before you orgasm, someone zaps you with a stungun.

Alternatively, you are running through an obstacle course, and just as you reach the end, a massive electrically charged fence raises up and blocks your path before you can stop yourself, and your momentum sends you straight into it.

>> No.5260150

>>5260116
Op said can I fathom it. Yes I can.

>> No.5260147

>>5260131
I always imagined as you're climbing up a vertical rock surface and right as you reach the top ledge, before you can pull yourself over and see what's on the top, you fall off.

>> No.5260151

>>5260131
when i was a kid i used to try to piece together some explanation of god alongside this feeling but it only ever made me think a god was impossible

>> No.5260438

This thought I have come to on my own and it continually stumps me, the thought of the progression of man's existence non-existant puzzles me. Although I disagree, the thought of man's trek of the Earth make me think that there is ome point to life, but that can't be true.

>> No.5260891
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5260891

i once was in school long time ago and asked my friends whats beyond the sun, he told me other stuff and then I asked him whats beyond that he sayd the end of the universe and then i asked whats beyond that he just sayd probably white stuff everything around you and then I sayd whats beyond that? and he sayd: probably nothing?HOW>???brain=blown, I mean seriously if you think about it perhaphs our universe is a one giant sperm in many billionsx10 sperms inside of a human being inside earth? wut?

>> No.5260900

>What if there was truly nothing. TRULY NOTHING. Can you even fathom it?

Everything you ever thought about is something.Nothing is not something our brain can comprehend.

stop wasting your time.

>> No.5260907

>>5260900
but there are things that you cannot imagine

>> No.5260905

>>5259929
>>5259929
NO NO NON NONO
>but I find myself unable to visualize the notion in my head. whenever I try... it's like my brain tases itself back to reality.

I have had this feel since i was a little kid I know exactly what you are talking about. jesus fucking christ this is so hard to describe I thought I was the only one. Ill do my best to describeit

imm sitting alone, thinking about the universe, how space is never ending trying to fathom how thats possible, then I think about what if the place didnt exist the galazy this universe this everything was never there, then all of a sudden its like im on the verge of getting the answer and my brain just stops for a milli second and I have lost my place of thinking because the thought is to powerful. FUCK.

>> No.5260911

try imagining how the universe expands, imagine the longest distance you could ever imgine and count to 1second, thats is how much the universe is expanding each second now after a minute think about it mind=blown

>> No.5260950

>>5260911
>mind=blown

No... no it's not.

>> No.5260959

>>5260950
really?are you a physicist?would you be kind to explain?

>> No.5260964

>>5260131
I get that felling too. Like the understanding is just outside of your reach. Like you're about to understand it, and then your brain says "Haha, just fucking with you, buddy, we're actually incapable of comprehending that." We just can't grasp some things. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.

>> No.5260966

>>5260964
omg lol'd so hard

>> No.5262823

>>5260891
I just assumed that the space was endless, but if you were to travel a certain distance out (faster than light, of course), there would be a truly empty space. no matter, no light, no background radiation, nothing. and then you could just wait a bit until the light from the big bang finally reached you and you could watch the birth of the universe.

>> No.5262843

You literally just asked, "What if the only thing that existed was non-existence?"
That's just a word we use to describe the alternative to what we already experience. There's a nice chance the Big Bang didn't even happen.

>> No.5262850

>>5260959

Look at an engine. From an outside perspective it is pretty amazing. Now study the engine for 3 months and it will be less amazing. It will simply be the way things are.

>> No.5262873

>>5259900
Nothing.

>> No.5262876

>>5259900
You don't have to make a 'what if' surmise:

There is something outside our universe (almost certainly).
Try to imagine that -- we know nothing of the space or time there, rules, laws, or geometry of it. We can never go there, and we don't know what would happen if matter ever came here.

>> No.5262881

>>5260102
>Nothingness is impossible, because nothing is something in itself.

That's wrong.

You've trapped yourself in the semantics of it -- there can be nothing, and having nothing, still be nothing, even if it is named 'nothing.'

>> No.5262884

>>5260905
>I have lost my place of thinking because the thought is to powerful.

Well, no - because the thought is too UNFAMILIAR.

You have no grounding, no ability in your head to make that leap. It is totally unfamiliar in structure.
Brains like images and structure and familiarity.

>> No.5262943

>>5262873

/thread

>> No.5262964

Ok, let's say you have "nothing." No matter, no energy, no space, no time, not even any laws of physics, just nothing. This condition would truly be the null set.

Aha, but wait, now you have the null set. The null set is nothing, but it's still something that can be described. Now you have exactly one thing -- the null set.

Aha, but wait, now you have two things. You have the concept of nothing and the concept of something.

Aha, but wait, now you have three things: nothingness, somethingness, and the set of those two things -- maybe you could call this third thing "opposition" if you want to give it a name.

And you can see that this pattern could continue forever... four things, five things, six things... and now you've spontaneously generated the integers out of "nothing." I like to think that this is exactly how the universe came into existence from nothing.

>> No.5262973

{0}

That wasn't that hard /sci/.

>> No.5262977

>>5262973
<span class="math">\{\emptyset\}[/spoiler]

>> No.5263017

>>5262964

>something that can be described
Which requires something that can describe, but there is a null set. A null set cannot describe a null set. Your argument is invalid.

>implying linguistic categories = objects

>> No.5263042

>>5263017
No it doesn't. "Something that can be described" absolutely does NOT require "something that can describe."

That's like saying "something that emits photons in the red part of the visible light spectrum" requires "something that can see red light."

>> No.5263074

>>5259900
If there were nothing there would be no idea of nothing.

>> No.5263201

This is is the current state of affairs. All that does not exist is not the case.

More things do not exist than do. i.e. there are many universes that do not exist.