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/sci/ - Science & Math

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5242150 No.5242150 [Reply] [Original]

Atoms and particles behave in probabilistic ways but our minds are made of atoms and particles, so how can free will exist?

>> No.5242156

>Atoms and particles behave in probabilistic ways but our minds are made of atoms and particles
>so how can free will exist
What has one to do with the other?

>> No.5242161

>how can free will exist?
You are implying it exists. It doesn't.

>> No.5242167

It's all been answered by quantum physics.

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9505023

>> No.5242165

Atoms and particles don't behave in probabilistic ways. The whole notion of quantum physics simply states that by observing, one of the possibilities is canceled out. Perhaps observed particles behave in probabilistic ways, but you fail to see the other possibility.

>> No.5242168

>particles behave in probabilistic
>how can free will exist
what does the laws that particles move by have to do with free will??

>> No.5242179

>>5242165
Yeah but "observing" in QM has nothing to do with consciousness or free will. It has to do with the fact you have to smack something with a photon to know of its existence, and the process of smacking causes it to go off its track.

>> No.5242182

>>5242179
You're wrong. Only a conscious observer can collapse the wave function.

>> No.5242189

>>5242150
>Atoms and particles behave in probabilistic ways
And yet quantom mechanics seems to be a bit more than that.

>> No.5242193

>>5242182

why are you so wrong

>> No.5242205

>>5242193
I'm not.

Educate you're self.

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9711064
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9505023
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0009062
http://arxiv.org/abs/0907.1394
http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2634

>> No.5242212

Atoms and particles behaving stochasticaly is precisely the reason that allows free will ro exist.

>> No.5242245

>>5242205
Consciousness causes collapse -> consciousness can collapse a wavefunction at any point in the von Neumann chain -> consciousness acts backwards in time -> consciousness supervenes on time -> evolution happens over time -> consciousness supervenes biological evolution, the big bang and the formation of stars -> CONSCIOUSNESS DRIVES THE UNIVERSE

>> No.5242246

>>5242205
wat. most of those have nothing to do with whether Only a conscious observer can collapse the wave function. its about quantum effects in the brain.

>> No.5242266

>>5242205
>Qualia are Quantum Leaps
holy shit this article. this article is so funny.

>If two brains can be induced to share enough entangled pairs
of molecules, through entanglement swapping say, ... one would see through the eyes of the
other.
>One could also in principle teleport phenomenal entities from... inanimate objects, ...One truly should be able to know a little of what it’s
like to be a bat.

this is gold. also:
>No References
>The ideas presented here are radical. Either what is written above resonates to some degree with the thoughts and conceptions of the reader on its own terms, or else, all is an idle daydream. Any reference would be a needless distraction.

lelz

>> No.5242286

>>5242161
THIS.

>> No.5242295

>>5242182
waityoureseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpeg

>> No.5242304

The measurement problem is easily resolved by adding to your theory a set of objective final states for the universe, one of which is to be chosen according to the Born rule. There's no need for a bazillion collapse events; only the nearly-classical paths contribute coherently to the probability amplitude for getting from the initial to the final state of the universe.

>> No.5242318

>>5242150

God programmed us in his image. We use quantum conciousness to understand the universe around us. Atheists lack a quantum conciousness (a soul) you can detect this using spiritual indicators. Ever wonder how atheists usually have crappy star signs or astronomical readings? well now you know.XD

>> No.5242340

>>5242318
>hurr hurr I just watched the Matrix and HOLY SHIT WE ARE COMPOOTAH PROGRAMS, I mean, there's like no way to tell, you know rite? I am so edgy and existential x---DDD

Two can play this 'ironic shitposting' game.

>> No.5242348

>>5242340
I'm actually convinced that my mind is a computer program of sorts, where my physical brain is the computer that runs it.

>> No.5242360

>>5242348
It's a common mistake to confuse representations with presentations. Math is used to model the universe; the universe is not composed of math. (Or maybe it is, but we need proof for such outrageous claims.)

>> No.5242374

>>5242360
What are you trying to say? How does this pertain to my post?

>> No.5242661

>>5242161

Yes but you can't deny that you have the choice to think and do anything you want right now. You are just believing that whatever you decide on doing was pre-determined.

>> No.5242670

Illusion of free will is what drives everything. Ignoring free will = ignoring law placed on our civilization, the scientific contributions, etc. Society does not function. Its necessary to believe we have free will inorder to take responsibility.

>> No.5242682

>>5242661
>Yes but you can't deny that you have the choice to think and do anything you want right now.

Actually no I don't. Even this post feels like I was forced to type it. People talk about this "illusion of free will"; I wish I knew how to achieve it. I never feel free; I feel like a fucking slave.

>> No.5242694

>>5242165
>he still subscribes to hidden-variable interpretations
do you even Copenhagen

>> No.5242692

The only self-consistent concept of “free will” is for no desires to arise that are contrary to what you're doing.

Carl Jung:
>Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must do

Murray Gell-Mann:
>Anything that is not forbidden is mandatory

Ask Dennett for details.

>> No.5242741

sometimes the whole is bigger than the parts.

sure, when you look at it very discretely, you'll see that the chain of causality is part of our existence, but if you look at the big picture... if you look at everything that's happening, you'll see just how indeterminate and subtle the world is.

>> No.5242746

>Free will

Stopped reading there, carry your pseudo-problems elsewhere highschooler.

>> No.5242778

To put it simply, we are greater than the sum of our parts.

>> No.5242788

>>5242778
How is that possible?

>> No.5242804
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5242804

>>5242778
so is ur mom cuz that pussy be soo fresh

>> No.5242805

>>5242682
Bullshit, you could do anything you wanted right now. Wanna stick a fork up your ass? Eat a steak? Wanna swim in the ocean? Wanna travel to Thailand and contract AIDS from a hooker? Even if not all of them are beneficial, nothing is really stopping you. You just think that whatever you ended up going was predetermined, but that's just a mindset.

>> No.5242815

>>5242788
Not the same guy, but think of binary number system. Only 2 states(0-1) and yet they make up everything in the digital world. Even those "2" states arent really 2, its just 1 actual state and other with no state.

But in anycase, I dont buy the we are the "sum of our parts" argument. Its incomplete. If we are the sum of our parts, then if we rearrange all the parts, it should still be "us". However we cant be that. Complexity means our parts will be a different "thing" with different formation, even with same exact parts.

>> No.5242850

>Things are made up of atoms
>People cannot see atoms
>therefore people cannot see things

>> No.5242858

>>5242850
More accurately, what we "see" are distorted light reflection.

>> No.5244278

>>5242150

>Still missing the proofs that free will exists at all.