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/sci/ - Science & Math

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File: 56 KB, 600x750, Math_Proof_by_JasonPoel.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5164579 No.5164579 [Reply] [Original]

Do you believe the reason so many people are poor at math is because we don't teach proofing along with memorization? Things are just put out there and people are expected to just "get" it.

>> No.5164585 [DELETED] 
File: 16 KB, 478x357, trollmaths.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5164585

>>5164579
nope
you can teach proofing as well, loads of people would still be retarded

>> No.5164591

>>5164579
>Do you believe the reason so many people are poor at math is because we don't teach proofing along with memorization?
no.

>> No.5164619

>>5164579


People suck at calculus because not enough time is devoted to explaining what is going on - they're force fed a shit load of rules and expected to just memorize it (this applies A LOT to Calc II).


Seriously. The answer to anything you do in calculus, as far as the professor cares, is "AREA UNDURRR THE CURVE"

>> No.5164637

But we do teach that. Or at least, I certainly learned (a decent introduction on) how to prove things in high school.

>> No.5164657

I was never taught proofing, but I can memorize math easily.

Proofing would have made everything easier, but too many kids in HS would care less about learning how to prove things.

In general, public schools need to increase the amount of science and math taught at earlier ages. I was doing 2 years above me worth of math because of accelerated math thing...with the scantrons. I only got to use that for 2 years, and those were the best two years....sigh...

>> No.5164712

>>5164585
Lol, EK along with her infamous knowledge of mathematics. Drop us a hint when you've figured out those pesky limits!

As a person that has helped struggling pupils with maths, I can say that proofing is least of our problems.

>> No.5164714 [DELETED] 

>>5164712
fuck you, i was actually pretty good at math
i just skipped a couple of classes
it was boring as fuck, but i still excel at it anyway just by sheer natural awesomeness

>> No.5164720

>>5164714
>i still excel at it
LOL darling, come out of your cloud. In the real world being unable to even do limits is not "excelling", it's being a plonker.

Are all females like this about maths?

>> No.5164729 [DELETED] 
File: 52 KB, 610x400, taylor-swift-we-are-never-ever-getting-back-together_musicjustice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5164729

>>5164720
i can do pretty much everything else up until the level i needed it
i dropped it as soon as i fucking could, and the only thing i seem to have missed was that fucking class on limits
as if i needed it anyway, i dont even recall a question coming up on the exam that was anything to do with it

fyi, i got an A.
dead serious

and im never ever ever ever ever gonna need limits at ANY fucking time, ever in my life

ever.

so i dont need to even learn it now

>> No.5164735

>>5164729
>Doesn't need to know limits

bitches can't into sequences and series

>> No.5164741

>>5164729
Alright, I understand all that, you're perfectly correct. But my question is, why do you insist you're good at something when you're not?

For instance, if I were to take a ten hour class about basic electronics and get an A, does that make me good at electronic engineering?
Of course not, so please help me understand why you think you're good at maths, when you've only studied HS level.

>> No.5164742 [DELETED] 

>>5164735
i did those and aced them, fucker.

i forget em now, but i was good at the time

fuck you

>> No.5164753 [DELETED] 

>>5164741
well im good at BASIC math, and i never ever claimed to be good at limits anyway, so its not a case of ' why do you insist you're good at something when you're not?'

the math i need for life, like being able to add up and multiply and shit, i already know, and thats all i need.

fuck, my phone has mathematica on it anyway, i dont NEED to math because its a job for a fucking computer, not a human.

>> No.5164757

for me it depends n the teacher, if they can impart some enthusiasm instead of making the class a chore i don't even have to try.
as for memorizing - math should make logical sense, i dont do much memorizing in any math course.

>> No.5164759

>>5164753
Ok, you don't need it, I agree. But why insist you're good at it? You know perfectly well, that arithmetic is tiniest tip of the iceberg that is maths.

>> No.5164767 [DELETED] 

>>5164759
i dont think that im good at it overall, as a subject. coz i never studied it in much depth, so it'd be pretty fucking arrogant to think im good at ti, when as you rightly say ive only seen the ' tiniest tip of the iceberg'

i WAS good at it at school, and had good potential for it, but i just didnt like it. i DID honestly score highly, and if i'd contiued with it, i probably would have kept doing well, and i WOULD have been good at it.

but that didnt end up happening, i chose different shit.

so fine, im not good at all math, just the math that i know.

but then i dot think i ever claimed to be good at ALL math.

>> No.5164774

>>5164753
Do you have any interest in science? Every field of science(including biology) has a fuckton of math going on in the background, to be honest you don't *really* understand how something works until you understand the math behind it. Math isn't so much a tool as a formal way of describing systems, if you can't speak the language you can only get an intuitive and incomplete understanding of the underlying system.

>> No.5164775

can somebody prove why op's post is wrong?

>> No.5164784

>>5164775
Do you mean the picture? You can't divide by 0.

>> No.5164785

>>5164775
Because you cannot divide by a-b as it is zero.

>> No.5164786 [DELETED] 

>>5164775
division by zero

>>5164774
of course i have interest in science.

i know the math is important to other aspects of science as well, but i dont NEED to understand all of that; just the bit im focusing on.

whether i understand how the math works or not, it still does
and that's all thats important

>> No.5164799

>>5164579
>Things are just put out there and people are expected to just "get" it.

I agree. Math is often taught like a religion. This way we always have to deal with math atheists who simply refuse to believe the validity of our axioms.

>> No.5164803

http://www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf

Highly relevant.

>> No.5164804

>>5164786

>whether I understand how it works, it does and that's all I need to know.

That's the precise opposite of having an interest in science.

>> No.5164817

>>5164775
I don't get why it's right to begin with. I just see a sudden error at A+B = B. I really don't see how the rest has any relevance.

Is there an error before that? Because I really just can't follow in the way they're thinking...

>> No.5164819 [DELETED] 

>>5164804
i mean just the math.
HOW the math works, aint that interesting to me. i just need it TO work.
just like who a car works, or a computer, yeh, i knows it complicated, but i dont know, and i dont NEED to know. i just need them to actually work.

its SCIENCE i have an interest in, not math

>> No.5164859

>>5164817
goes like this
from step 4

A²-B²=AB-B² divides both sides by A-B
A+B=B
suddenly turns A into B for some reason
B+B=B
2=1 Voilá!

>> No.5164861

>>5164804
division by zero?

what

>> No.5164863 [DELETED] 

>>5164861
Division by A - B
and A - B is zero
because B is A
so A - B = A - A
and A - A, HAS to be zero

>> No.5164869

nice troll image,
somewhere between like 5 and 6 the value B is added to both sides, but since any number and its negative equivalent have a sum of 0 the next line would be A=A. You can't change the operator on only one side.

>> No.5164875

>>5164859
>suddenly turns A into B for some reason
A=B.

>> No.5164888

>>5164817
The error is in dividing by a-b, which is 0.

>> No.5164895

>>5164888
I get it now, I just saw a sudden error. The statement before is technically true, because undefined = undefined, or so one might argue, but A+B is not equal to B

>> No.5164914

>>5164619
This is definetly a good explanation. I rememebr when I took some math classes I had no motivation because there seemed like no real point in it without application. It was only when my teachers started showing how to apply the stuff that I started to understand and like math a lot. I know my Calculus teacher got me interested in math after explaining why we need to know the material after applying it to different situations.

It also comes down to understanding the material too, but that's kind of obvious.

>> No.5164927

as simple as >>5164785
I posted this, math error written on a black board yesterday. and on my personal blog about two weeks, so just quit trying to be smart making demotivational from others thoughts.

>> No.5164941

>>5164875
oh yeah, noticed that just now heh

>> No.5164951

>>5164895
unless A is 0, in which case the division at the end does not follow regardless, due to it being a "different" undefined value. I guess undefined is to be treated like "null".

>> No.5165148

>>5164859
voilà :P

>> No.5165800

>>5164579

People are poor at math because they aren't given a good way to apply their mathematics. Kids do fine with arithmetic when it's couched to them in financial terms.

>> No.5165844

>>5164657
> but too many kids in HS would care less about learning how to prove things.
If they care at least a little to not not care about proving things, I think they should do it.

>> No.5165908

>>5164951
"Undefined" isn't a value. It means "you've put these symbols together in a way that doesn't actually mean anything". Division by zero is undefined in the same way that "1 + ) = x^*(-potato]" is undefined.

>> No.5165972

>>5164579
if A+B=B, then A=0
if B=A=0, B=0
second to last line has divides by B
this proof is wrong

>> No.5165993

>>5165972
Yet somehow dividing by h when doing a derivative is okay even when you are setting h to 0 later?

>> No.5165995

>>5165993
the limit of h is zero, not h.

>> No.5166032

>>5165908

I think you just don't understand higher level Heidi Crowter calculations.

>> No.5166034

>>5165993
Your understanding of the difference quotient disgusts me.

>> No.5166044

It just takes time. After 5 years with experience with math or any science, you'll look back and realize what a retard you were and everything makes sense. Its more like you are a retard until you turn 25.

>> No.5166081

>>5164579

I realized this in geometry in 9th grade. I had a revelation that the way they were teaching us was stupid. My classmates were like 'john how do you remember all the formulas for these shapes', and I would say, 'I don't remember them, I just understand how they are derived and can create the formula if I need it, there's no need to memorize at all', but they wouldn't listen. I really do think that is both math and science's downfall for many people. In physics in high school, as well, it was basically getting a list of formulas and then substituting shit in till you got the correct thing you wanted.

I'm currently in my favorite physics class I've ever been in, physics 2 with calc, dealing with electromagnetism and optics. The professor I have doesn't teach us memorizing at all, and it is the first professor I've had to do this, and I love him for it. He has taught us how to take the integral across bars of uniform charge to find the force on points, and how to use gaussian surfaces to find the electric field for any uniformly charged perfect surface. He never just gave us a list of formulas. I was surprised when I looked in the book when I saw they just gave the formulas for the electric field of a sphere, of a plane, of a cylinder - it's impossible to remember all of that, if you just learn how to do it, it's easy. Same thing with capacitence - I can get the capacitence of any surface because I actually understand how to do it, there's no need to memorize. For tests, too, he doesn't give us a formula sheet, or a list of constants, nothing, it must all be from memory.

And I mean it's not a big deal, especially in physics, because you have units that basically tell you the formulas for things. If you know the formula for force and you know that the electric field units is force per charge, you know you can divide out a charge from the force formula and have the formula for an electric field. Easy stuff. I love the guy.

>> No.5166248

>>5164869
Do you even factoring?

>> No.5167913

>>5164579
sorry if im wrong, but since when A² = A x B ?

>> No.5167973
File: 52 KB, 1600x665, clean water producer.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5167973

/sci/ could this system provide enough clean (steam)water to make a floating river.

here is how it works
1.sea water gets locked out and heated up
2. sunlight+ extra reflected sunlight het the water. steam floats out of the pipe nd rains down as water.
3. the salt left over is pushed away in a shaft.
4.?????
5.profit

>> No.5167986

>>5167913
The initial assumption is A = B

>> No.5167988

people are bad at math because it is irrelevant to human lives until you need it to design engineering projects from scratch

>> No.5168286

The issue is that you cannot divide the equation by A-B. Since the assumption was that A=B, and you are dividing by A-B you are dividing by 0 and that is a major math no-no!

>> No.5168534

>>5167973
Light would get reflected back to source, so parallell to the first raynot towards the cover

>> No.5168574

>>5168286
Kind of just an algebra no-no.

>> No.5168597

>>5165993

>what is a limit

>> No.5168602

>>5167913

since A=B

>> No.5168653

>>5166081
wait you went to school with people who COULDN'T memorize formulas?

are kids seriously this dumb that they cannot remember 5-10 formulas? its not like memorizing a famous speech word for word or something...

understanding it is admirable; if you cant do that (i didn't at the time) its really not that hard to just rote memorize shit for an exam.

kids today are fucking retarded

>> No.5168734

>>5168597
Ok, so in OP's picture instead of saying A or B is 0 let's say it is the limit approaching 0. Now his equation is magically valid?