/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.5158132]

Tell me /sci/, let's say humankind has colonized another earth-like planet. Terraformed and ecologically stable, mankind has built new cities, and a second internet to digitally connect it's people, so to speak, identical to the one here on Earth. The same large corporations that provided the masses with internet media and tools (ie. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Sony, Facebook, etc, etc) have also long since set up shop. This "Second Web" now known by the prefix "sw" as in sw.google.com as opposed to www.google.com

There is one small problem. Despite advances in near light-speed travel, both "internets" are far from homogenous, and the second is infantile in size and complexity compared to its former. Even with majorly boosted signals travelling between both planets, a lag of several months is expected for information to be received by either planet. As such, communication between both planets, despite being order of magnitude faster than available physical transport between both planets, is still impossible slow for a homogenous "universal web" to be formed, and it is doubted it ever will. Scientists still worry what will happen with the colonization of future planets and how mankind, as a whole, will be able to keep the internet as we know it, continually homogenous as mankind stretches further and further out.

>TL:DR - How do we keep the internet the same everywhere humanity will eventually colonize, no matter how far apart? Or will mankind simply have to accept living in "bubble" clusters of information, oblivious to the matters of other planets apart from reports that trickle through from interplanetary traders. At what point does distance become an issue to the internet?

[Anonymous No.5158172]

Bump, cmon, posting from Vega costs a shitload. Makes this worth it peoples.

[Anonymous No.5158178]

>>5158132
Lasers.

[Anonymous No.5158192]

>>5158132
If what you say is true about information taking months to travel from planet to planet then I would say that what would happen would be very similar to the American Revolution with England. the separate planets would have populations that diverge slightly with the Mother Planet/Country.

[Anonymous No.5158196]

>>5158132

HOLY SHIT AN ACTUAL DISCUSSION THREAD THAT ISN'T HOMEWORK THANK YOU BASED OP

If they want the two internets to work together, they would need to use the same URL, they would just need to have mirror of their site on the other world. Routing would use name servers which only point to servers on their world, but the servers are independently syncing with eachother to pick up updates to their backend.

So google would work the same regardless of which planet you're on, but if their Earth team makes an update independent of their OtherEarth team, it may take a few months for OtherEarth to get the feature.

Fortunately, the internet is largely organic as far as content goes. So it's not really like they'd be missing too much, but news from the other world would take awhile to reach them.

[Anonymous No.5158200]

That's simple: just have different "internets" for every planet, and have them regularly send out archives up to a certain date of the entire public internet. Each planet would then have its own internet, but with backlogs of all other planets (albeit with the inevitable delay).

As long as FTL is not possible, colonization of worlds will always have to involve millions of people per planet in order to be profitable. That's large enough to sustain your own internet - see minor European countries for verification on that.

[Anonymous No.5158219]

>>5158192
Yes, I quite imagined that this was what happened with nearly every epoch in human civilisation, at least on earth. And everytime this problem arose, the simple solution was to devise new methods of communication that were faster than current methods.
Hence horse-messengers in ancient rome, fast ship messengers in later times, the use of rail-road communicae, the usage of electricity for telegrams, and eventually radio waves, the laying of the trans-atlantic telegraph line, faster more efficient forms of radio, electronic and fibre optic communication that we know today.

But there seems to be a limit to the speeds we can now achieve. Unless we can develop miniturised and commercialized wormhole modems, capable of sending information through a hole in space (larger ones are developed for people. Physical transport is near obsolete as the ability to get from one place to another as long as an "exit" wormhole has been placed at your intended destination) so it emerges at the destination server (and vice versa) currently there is no faster option than the mass satellite boosters arranged much like the ancient parallel I/O ports on a computer, used both as sending and receiving stations for both planets.

[Anonymous No.5158224]

>>5158200
>regularly send out archives up to a certain date of the entire public internet

I'm not sure how realistic that is. That is an immense amount of data.

[Anonymous No.5158239]

>>5158200
>regularly send out archives up to a certain date of the entire public internet

No.

Let individual sites sync their datacenters between worlds or don't. You don't need to send the entire internet over in one giant bitstream

[Anonymous No.5158253]

>>5158196
>HOLY SHIT AN ACTUAL DISCUSSION THREAD THAT ISN'T HOMEWORK THANK YOU BASED OP

hehe, thanks. It just saddens me to look at the futuristic, space themed cities on /wg/ and think I'll never live in one of those. But then I think of what kind of problems and challenges those people would have had to work through in order for a civilization like that to be a success.

This thread is the crux of these thoughts.

Just to continue with my last post, such a "satellite info array" would be constantly pumping vast amounts of information, basically into empty space, with the hope that the advanced mathematical equations that both planets are relying on so they are each in range of each others' messaging.

It is an essentially delayed LOS messaging system, with a near 99% success rate for information that is pumped out toward the target planet. By sheer dumb luck, both planets are looking at each other like a small insect on a carpet floor might see a fly on the ceiling in a house. If one might imagine the furniture on the floor as the planets that would inhibit LOS, scientists a truly wondering what a conundrum they would have when the Earth or Second Earth disappear behind a neighbour planet or even their system star for half the year, rendering communication between both planets, even more restricted. Thankfully, this is not the case, and both planets are merely "aiming ahead" of each planet such that they each intercept the information the other sends out.

Except the distance is so great (about 20% of a light year, hence the several month lag) neither planet is visible from the other. Only Sol is visible from the Second Earth, and Second Earth's star.

[Anonymous No.5158255]

Unless we invent some timewarping device, we will always have bubble of information, just like in ancient times when news traveled by horse. We don't even have to think interstelar here, mars has a ping of 14 mins. They will never teabag you in Halo.

We will know King Philipe is dead when King Wolfgang already seized power.

[Anonymous No.5158299]

>>5158253
More continuation.

Imagine both star systems as the round caps on a cylinder, with small marbles rolling around the caps.
The large length that both systems have between them is space filled with a myriad of asteroids, comets, smaller planets, rocks, space dust. Nothing major, I mean its only 300 times the distance from Earth to Pluto, so obviously not enough space for an another system to pass between. Scientists hope this is the case anyway.

Except that this cylinder itself is moving in an arm of the milky way. Equations for this "perfect" timing are off the hook, guys. Einstein and Stephen Hawking themselves would have been proud at what mankind has been able to accomplish, but looked at for what it is, its simply a way to calculate when you should throw the basketball when both you and the basket is moving around in circles.

[Anonymous No.5158323]

>>5158299
And shit, I looked at Wikipedia, and found the nearest star system, whether or not it has planets (setting aside they're habitable or not) is at least 4.5 light years away. So let me rephrase that "several months" to a "several year" lag.

>>5158255
I guess bubble systems will have to do for a while.

[Anonymous No.5158354]

OP, it is a bizarre notion to me that the internet should ever expect to be homogenous;
weird anyone would think it is a benefit, even

You understand that much of what has made cultures interesting is because of their isolation and differences?
Having a homogenous network as you suggest would destroy much of what makes cultures different; we might, in fact, require networks to be isolated in order to allow cultures on disparate planets to grow separate from each other.

It's a good thing, useful and necessary.

[Anonymous No.5158368]

>2312
>not using wormholes to provide instant, no-latency Internet anywhere in the universe

[Anonymous No.5158380]

the web as itself can be easily transffered look at google they have caches of most web pages out there. we optimize this and keep track of the web in near real time then continuously beam all updates to centralized servers on the planet and update those.

it doesnt solve the problem of instant communication but we will be able to access the internet nearly the same way we do.

for instant communication I do not have a solution unless quantum entanglement can somehow solve the problem i heard that if 2 particles are entangled then no matter of the distance between them when one changes spin so will the other.

[Anonymous No.5158384]

>>5158354
Let me illustrate what I mean:

why should two planets with two entirely separate populations have the same interest in pop singers?
Is there some reason that celebrities need to be celebrated on both worlds?
Why would each planet need daily updates on the other's politics, twitter feeds, product releases?

Each would have it's own politics, products, and celebrities -- and that is more than enough for any culture.
It is silly to pretend we -should- have an interest in the other planet.

That is not to say people should divorce themselves of interest in the accomplishments or people they already care about.

[Anonymous No.5158386]

>>5158368
inventing magical solutions is not welcome.

[Anonymous No.5158392]

>>5158380
>the web as itself can be easily transffered look at google they have caches of most web pages out there
incorrect about what Google does, what Google purchased, and how immediate it is.
completely misrepresents what it would mean to collect all of the data that comprises the internet.

Clearly, you don't know anything of the scale you are talking about, or the database you mention, or the content it includes.

[Anonymous No.5158410]

>>5158380
web 'archives' are not duplicates of web pages, nor are they complete, nor are they usable in the same way.

What you seem to have imagined is that those incredibly shallow 'archives' amount to a duplicate web;
without even considering how often they are updated or what they look for.

No, it would NOT be 'easy' to transfer the internet. What you are saying would be incredibly difficult and ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.5158415]

>>5158354
>>5158384

I understand that much. However in this day and age diversity of culture is a view I find increasingly harder to support. While it might do humanity some good to sit back, chill for a while and develop culturally on an individual basis (be it on a truly individual or communal basis), it is something that cuts back on standardization. Standardization may not sound all that exciting, and homogenization of a hundred unmixed paints in a paintcan eventually leads to a boring shade of greyish brown. But it is something that is vital to scientific progress. Would the human brain be brain better off if parts of it are isolated from others?
You could argue that the left and right hemispheres are barely connected as it is, but it is all connected, even if it takes a few steps and hops to get from one side to another. They need to be connected, or it will not work, it cannot function any other way

A more interconnected worldwould eventually lead to a unification of the human psychii, with more and more people sharing relevant thoughts and desires, billions of inputs, creations, imaginations. Perhaps we too will lose our individual consciousness in this web but gain a state of connectedness that would transcend all that we currently perceive in the world.

I don't mean this in some kind of sci-fi "we will all physically join together in some kind of orgiastic ball of brain mush super sphere" but in terms of the internet, staying connected, or intensifying the current connections we do have would be greatly enhance the current experience we get from it.

The creation and remixing of information as we know it would be on order of magnitude larger than it currently is. Imagine information that is created, and spread so fast, that even at the speed at which your brain processes information, would not be enough to experience it all.

[Anonymous No.5158416]

>>5158219
>Unless we can develop miniturised and commercialized wormhole modems, capable of sending information through a hole in space

Actually, this is likely how it will work,

We really can't break the light speed barrier for information until we start either using quantum entanglement (which science can't seem to agree if it works or not), or small wormholes.

Sustaining a tiny wormhole is much easier and energy efficient compared to, say, a man sized one.

Each home still wouldn't have one though, they'd be placed at strategic points in each continent to enable off-world and inter-planetary communications at high speeds, avoiding the latency associated with things similar to trans-pacific communications.

[Anonymous No.5158418]

>>5158416
Like say at our friendly neighborhood ISP?
Assuming here that the physical size of a wormhole is on a 1:1 diameter of your average fibre-optic cable.

[Anonymous No.5158446]

>>5158416
I'm pretty sure we've agreed that Quantum Entanglement doesn't mean shit.
It's not even that particular a phenomenon.

Like flipping a coin, seeing it landed heads, and deducing the other side is tails.

[Anonymous No.5158457]

OP it makes me sad to think humanity would be fragmented once again, instead of being one glorious civilization spanning across the stars.
Regardless, it is a possible scenario.

Assuming the amount of data was too limited to update the whole internet, I suppose planets would have to select vital informations to send to their neighbours. And you all know what scarcity means.
It might mean the rise of an interplanetary information market. And politics too.

Assuming we make our traveling by Alcubierre drive, it would mean information could travel actually faster on a ship than by waves. Journalists and information traders would spend a life traveling between planets, loaded with memory banks, in order to be the first one to bring the fresh news and thus get more money out of it.

Information control would be once more possible. Governments might impose information embargos.

[Anonymous No.5158466]

>>5158416
>quantum entanglement (which science can't seem to agree if it works or not)
What? It works.
It's just that you can't decrypt the information without sending a regular message in parallel.
It's only useful for cryptography, not data transmission.

[Anonymous No.5158471]

>>5158415
>But it is something that is vital to scientific progress. Would the human brain be brain better off if parts of it are isolated from others?

Aha; you have changed topics ENTIRELY.
The internet is a vast reservoir of crap, and has nearly nothing to do with sharing research.

If you only wanted to keep planets updated in research, that is a vastly smaller amount of data to be shared. Smaller than the text messages to friends that the people would be sending, by far. It would be trivial next to the other things.

But, isolating cultures is hugely important.
Hugely. The only part of humanity that wants a cohesive set of cultural influences is multinational marketers; no one else wants to merge cultural interests at all.

It is trivially easy to observe that; do you think people all want to follow the same sports?
Of course they don't, and never have -- people don't have the same experience of sports and don't like the same activities.
Now, imagine the news broadcasts covering sports from another planet -- with players you never see, games you can never go to, and teams based in cities you don't know.

As soon as there are teams to watch, people would watch their local favorite sports, and never care about what is happening in the same sport on another planet.

(and the same goes for many human activities and interests: it simply wouldn't interest people in a distant land)

[Anonymous No.5158472]

>prefix "sw" as in sw.google.com as opposed to www.google.com
>prefix
Domains don't work that way.

[Anonymous No.5158498]

>>5158415
>in terms of the internet, staying connected, or intensifying the current connections we do have would be greatly enhance the current experience we get from it.

You are talking like 'the internet' is the same as 'communication.' They are not, and never have been.

Worse, you seem to be forgetting that 'internet,' for most people, means the Web, with it's millions of bullshit pages and nonsense 'facts' and disturbing crap.

Also, the internet is here now: if it isn't already 'intensifying the current connections we do have' -- well, what more did you imagine it should do?

A free internet provides people the chance to say anything -- without thinking, without facts, and without relevance. Yes, there can also be facts and relevance, but it is much harder to get to than the previous method, which is both restricted and responsible (professional journals).
I really do wonder why you think 'internet' is such a great boost to truth or facts, when all we've learned about how people use it is crap.

[Anonymous No.5158502]

>>5158472
yes, and it is unnecessary and superfluous to describe the cosmetics of the system when you hadn't defined the purpose, benefit, need, or cause for doing it.

[Anonymous No.5158506]

>>5158498
You're talking as if numeric version of journals weren't included in the Internet.

[Anonymous No.5158528]

good luck with a galactic internet when a two-way communication even to alpha centauri takes 8 years. still waiting for that page to load...

[Anonymous No.5158555]

>>5158471
>>5158498
Perhaps cultural isolation may be key, and the little ability we have in such a future to share information should be restricted to scientific progress.

I always like a happy medium, and this by far seems to be most probable and practical.

It just seems impossible that the everyday person, who may have relatives on the other planets, will want to know how they are, and what has been happening.
The reason there is all this bullshit on the internet is simply because it must interest at least one or two people. Public pressure in favor of more connectivity with the other world would eventually become a concern.

While the initial novelty of talking to people on another planet may wear off, we cannot assume humanity is really as ignorant as you would believe them to be. We may be ignorant of complex things, but the vice versa of that situation holds just as true.

>>5158472
>>5158502
Okay, I may have rather off in terms of specifics. I do not actually know much about the protocols the internet uses, and needlessly threw them out there.
I was after all, only attempting to paint a picture of the future, and wanting answers to its problems.

[Anonymous No.5158563]

>>5158555
whoops.
>It just seems impossible that the everyday person, who may have relatives on the other planets, will **NOT*** want to know how they are, and what has been happening.

[Anonymous No.5158602]

This might be outside of /sci/'s knowledge, but what about politics?
How will a planet 8 light years away vote in their countries elections? Will there even be a government in control of multiple planets? Will it be impossible for anything other than each planet being basically its own government separate from its original settlers? I figure at that point, corporations would be the only consistent cross-system entity. Trade would be the only thing holding them together...?

What an anti-climatic future. No galactic empires for us. Civil progress would more or less cease until the technology could catch up.

[Anonymous No.5158611]

>>5158602
It seems unlikely.
Waging a war with no real supply line would be hard.
Also you have to weight the military force of a whole planet against the few forces you could send in an intersystem travel.
Galactic government under those conditions is just not possible.

I tent to consider that an enjoyable perspective.

[Anonymous No.5158614]

>>5158563
assuming by this time they have our standards of normalcy

for all you know society will raise children by placing a child with the people who are best for them at any given time. No one would ever know a "parent" or "family" as we currently define it

[Anonymous No.5158687]

>>5158602
Oh I just sort of assumed that at this point in time, humanity had developed a political system that is based upon but catered to the needs and desires of each individual.

Imagine Wikipedia, the information in it streamlined in the right direction by hundreds of millions of people. Now apply that force to our political laws in the world. It would remove the ones that hinder progress, and maximise efficiency of ones that are beneficial.

Each planet (unless its a pirate faction which of course will exist, there will always be anarchists) will basically have it's people following these laws, and the government merely there to enforce it.

If anything, the people create the laws, with the average voice taken as the most preferable for all, (with a few extra little laws to cater for those physically unable to adhere) and the government there to make sure everyone agrees to their own rules. Hypocrisy, essentially becomes the most ironic punishment to receive. Not following your own rules you yourself contributed to formation of.

It isn't necessarily Democracy or Communism or Socialism or anything. Just...the people's law.

[Anonymous No.5159013]

>>5158506
No, I'm talking as though 'internet' comprises a huge load of detritus and crap along with a very very tiny amount of new, validated, and authoritative information.
I'm saying that if you value that, you transmit that, and the issue is incredibly smaller.
I'm saying that even where there is cultural or popular value to internet articles, those are probably of little to no use to another planet.
And I'm saying the vast, vast majority of what people mean when they say 'internet' is crap we shouldn't even consider looking at on this planet, let alone working very hard to preserve for another planet.

[Anonymous No.5159026]

>>5158555
>It just seems impossible that the everyday person, who may have relatives on the other planets, will want to know how they are, and what has been happening.

You're thinking in terms of the first generation or two of settlers;
very few people are likely to 'keep in touch' once everyone has established regular new lives on different planets, particularly assuming no one will ever meet the others.

And your assumption that people of one planet will demand MORE connectivity with the other seems silly to me; we don't even have that much interest across states, let alone continents. We just don't care that much.
General news, of course -- we'd want to know the events of each planet. But daily twitter feeds?
You're putting me on, right? People won't demand MORE connection with those distant people -- they don't do it NOW!

Or maybe you're assuming the distant planet wouldn't develop it's own cultures, politics, sports, disasters, celebrities, products, and all the other junk.

[Anonymous No.5159035]

>>5158132
>earth-like planet.
>Terraformed

[Anonymous No.5159039]

>>5158602
When a colonist leaves one planet for another, presumably forever, there is no need to assume they will even be allowed the right to vote, let alone interest in it.
They cannot participate, cannot contribute, and cannot affect anything on the home planet; they are practically, economically, emotionally and politically removed from the process.

Any government of this planet should assume, regardless of how strongly they support colonization or fund the effort, that the distant planet will become its own in every way -- politically, economically, and socially.
There is no way to govern across such distances, and NO WAY TO BE RELEVANT.

Yes, governments today would have difficulty with those concepts, but they are necessities.

And unless you are invoking magically free transport or easy commutes, there is no trade, dependence, or government between planets.

But here's the thing: the SHOULD NEVER BE!

[Anonymous No.5159043]

>>5158614
such social structures have existed for thousands of years, and still exist today, but guessing at what may happen to a future colony is pointless.

[Anonymous No.5159092]

>>5158253
did you say /wg/
...and futuristic cities?

[Anonymous No.5159102]

>>5159092

[Anonymous No.5159107]

>>5159102

[Anonymous No.5159111]

>>5159107
science bitches

[Anonymous No.5159113]

>>5159111

[Anonymous No.5159119]

>>5159113

[Anonymous No.5159124]

>>5159119
hippies love this one

[Anonymous No.5159130]

>>5159124

[Anonymous No.5159145]

>>5158132
Travelling through space is fucking stupid

Atoms can exist in two places at once, once we have the particular coordinates of a specific location in space/time (and once we can find what that really means) instantaneous "travel" and exchange of info will be possible

[Anonymous No.5159138]

>>5159130

[Anonymous No.5159147]

>>5159138

[Anonymous No.5159157]

>>5159147

[Anonymous No.5159159]

>>5159157

[Anonymous No.5159160]

>>5159159

[Anonymous No.5159164]

>>5159160

[Anonymous No.5159177]

>>5159164
>all these pics

thanks dude
awesome thread

[Anonymous No.5159226]

>>5159164
holy shit, nice one man. I thought my thread dead, and came to check one last time before bed.

[Anonymous No.5159244]

>>5159226
I would contribute but all of mine are near future dystopias