/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.5090575]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi

Pi

Brainshattering shit.

Just why does the Universe have to pull this shit on us?

Just why the fuck does such a fundamental number have to be FUCKING IRRATIONAL and TRANSCENDENTAL???

For fucks sake! Dont you ever get the feeling that there is something fundamental behind this? Something so profound, like a much deeper level of mathematical reality, that is just so fucking beyond the realm of human comprehension that we may never properly understand it?

Have any of you got any insights into why this shit happens, and if so, just what is the Universe trying to tell us about the nature of reality?

(Arrogant douchebags with pinhead comprehension of big pcture stuff should not reply)

[Anonymous No.5090579]

where can i buy this stuff OP?

[Anonymous No.5090595]

>>5090575

>Have any of you got any insights into why this shit happens, and if so, just what is the Universe trying to tell us about the nature of reality?

The "Universe" (I note the capital U) isn't trying to tell us shit. It's not a sentient being spewing patterns at us for its amusement or some shit.

[Anonymous No.5090598]

>>5090595

Arrogant douchebag detected

[Anonymous No.5090599]

> (Arrogant douchebags with pinhead comprehension of big pcture stuff should not reply)

Such as yourself?

[Anonymous No.5090607]

>>5090599

Dumbass misses the point. Tries to derail thread. Probably is not European.

[Anonymous No.5090621]

>>5090599

Hey listen, you might have nothing to add to this thread, so why bother replying? Geez, just move on if it doesnt interest you (or of you dont like thinking about the philosophy behind maths and science).

Anyway, on topic. OP, one of the really interesting things about pi with respect to human technology is how, once people started calculating it, new methods for calculating it were devised. Even with computers they had to devise new ways just to calculate pi more efficiently (convergence).

Of all geometrical shapes circles are the most interesting (and of course arcs, ellipises, spheres, etc). The fact that is no precise value for pi makes me wonder if it holds the same irrational values in higher plane geometry. Alas, my mathematical skills are not up to scratch to that.

[Anonymous No.5090627]

Does the properties of irrationality and transendence still hold for pi if it calculated in binary or any of the other bases?

[Anonymous No.5090639]

>>5090627
not if its calculated in base-pi

[Anonymous No.5090647]

>>5090639

lol

That settles it. We have been working in the wrong base. We should be working in base pi. We must get the gentic engineers to start working on a way to give all humans pi fingers so we can count correctly.

[Anonymous No.5090649]

If our number system were base 21 it would be simple whole number. Really you plebs cannot grasp this?

[Anonymous No.5090652]

>>5090639
10/10

[Anonymous No.5090655]

>>5090649
base 64 is superior because it works reasonably well with all of our laws and standards. Pi ion base 64 is 21.333 repeating

[Anonymous No.5090660]

>>5090655
That is kinda cool, from now on I will remeber Pi as 1/3 of base 64.

[Anonymous No.5090663]

>>5090649

Really? So if humans had evolved with 21 fingers (and therefore had presumably used base 21 for our counting system) we would find that pi is a whole number? Fascinating.

Tell me, oh wise one, does base 21 have any irrational numbers?

[Anonymous No.5090665]

Too bad nothin natural uses pi anyway. Aoms/particles create vertices making geometric shapes and anything else tends to be eliptic or parabolic.

[Anonymous No.5090673]

>>5090655
Where do you even get a notion like that from?

[Anonymous No.5090682]

>>5090575
Not that amazing, considering the fact that almost all real numbers are transcendental.

Also
>irrational and transcendental.
You say that as if there are some transcendental rational numbers.
The redundancy is obvious, stop being so idiotic.

[Anonymous No.5090687]

I like pi(e)

[Anonymous No.5090695]

>>5090595

Why was this not /thread?

[Anonymous No.5090700]

Maybe /pi/ is an absolute number.

Say, 1 is ALWAYS 1

Pi is always pi in the same way 1 = 1

they're unrelated to each other since one is a number and one is a 'number' in a different stasis.

[Anonymous No.5090701]

>>5090682

Douchebag detected.

Got nothing useful to say? No? Then fuck off.

[Anonymous No.5090714]

>read first few replies
>OP calls everyone who has even a slightly dissentive opinion an 'arrogant douchebag'
>does not recognise the irony and hypocrisy in this
>does not rise above petty name-calling like a true man of knowledge

Yeah, nah, OP, you brought up an interesting topic, but your conduct has made me and presumably many others not want to discuss it with you. I suggest you solve your personal issues and come back without the ego.

[Anonymous No.5090715]

>>5090701
It's fine if you don't understand what I say.
However, then I can say with confidence you will never notice the more subtle coincidences in mathematics, even when they hit you in the face.
But you don't need to worry, your interest is no more than that of something to talk about.
No interest in the actual mathematics, no loss on your part.

[/hnd/ No.5090718]

I'm not sure why you're tripping balls so much, but:
>get a unit circle
>mark a spot on the edge
>role the circle from the spot until you reach the spot again
>measure distance
>pi

That's why "pi is pi".

[Anonymous No.5090727]

>>5090595

Aren't we all a part of the universe? Then how is the universe not sentient?

And what if the universe is "sentient" to an extent so great that humans are less than a bunch of amoeba compared to a great human genius? How would we be able to judge of it is sentient....or something even more.

[Anonymous No.5090740]

Almost every number is irrational, almost every number is transcendental. Why are you surprised that one number you've decided to care about has those properties?

[Anonymous No.5090742]

OP, this is an interesting topic, just do yourself a favour and ignore the trolls and name callers. For God's sake never post a comment like "arrogant douchebags do not need to reply" because that is exactly what you will get (as you have already found out)

If you are really interested in pi then I suggest you take a look at his website:

www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=45552.0

[Anonymous No.5090772]

>>5090575

No OP. Pi is not profound. It is simply a ratio of an ideal circle. Ideal circles don't exist in the real world. You don't even need pi after 30 digits. With 30 digits of accuracy I can build you a gun that shoots to the edge of the universe within a centimeter of a target.

Why does Pi happen?

Because mathematicians.

[Anonymous No.5090770]

>>5090742

OP here, yeah you are right. Some of these fuckwits pretend they know more than they do and then post shit comments like "idiotic" when they cant even be bothered reading the wiki article ( if they did they would know just how retarded they sound). Just absolute fuckwits. Anyway I will check out that site thanks, at least your post has been helpful.

[Anonymous No.5090803]

>>5090639

I laughed.

[Anonymous No.5090810]

>>5090649

Incorrect. Irrationals cannot be formed as a fraction of integers - our bases are just a short hand to allow us to manipulate, they do not change the essence of the number or the position on the number line. Division - making a fraction - is how many times the top will go into the bottom, and you could do that sum with pebbles, or with sweets and children etc - ie with no bases at all. And all of your answers would be rational - 1 mars bar for every two kids (1/2 bar each) , 3 kitkats between 4 children (3/4 each - ie 3 fingers); never would your answer be an irrational amount each (and never would the kids be happy)

Basically integers are integers in any base, and rationals/irrationals follow integers in their definition

[Anonymous No.5090813]

>>5090772
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffon's_needle

[Anonymous No.5090824]

>>5090607

He's probably asian. Brilliant in learning what they have been taught but absolutely pig ignorant when it comes to original thought. Otherwise nice guys but anal as fuck. No point even thinking of having an intellectual conversation with one, especially if they are a maths nerd.

[Anonymous No.5090828]

There are many things in mathematics that are profound. Everything is connected, so if you want to learn more about pi, you can't just dig directly into it. You have to read about many topics in mathematics. For example, there's Godel's incompleteness theorems, which take a while to understand.

Someone can be fascinated with fire and try to look at how profound it is by just looking at fire, but that person isn't going to go as far as the person who looks around the object and into the background. The former person, lacking the proper background, may probably look at the shape of fire and conclude that it's some signal from a god, and will be led to false conclusions. The latter person will conduct various experiments with other things in nature and find the chemical reaction of combustion and other cool things with fire, and realize its profound connection with life.

[Anonymous No.5090833]

>>5090824
I can't believe I'm hearing such stupid words. I have many intellectual, philosophical conversations with asians at my university. Are you in fucking high school? Get the fuck out of here if you can't think out of the box.

[Anonymous No.5090914]

>>5090803

I jizzed.

[Anonymous No.5090936]

>>5090682
First off:
Irrational means 'cannot be expressed as a fraction'. For example
√ 2
is an irrational number.

Transcendental means is not a solution to any equation that contains only rational numbers. For example,
π
is a transcendental number.
√ 2
is not a transcendental number.

You might want to actually know what you are talking about before you goof off again.

[Anonymous No.5090943]

>>5090936

this thread is totally derailed.

OP is asking about the spiritual quality of pi, and everyone is answering from a godless athiest viewpoint.

God gave us pi and e to yield harmony and balance in His world which we mortal humans can only marvel at.

[Anonymous No.5090959]

>>5090936
10/10
would rage again

[Anonymous No.5090961]

>>5090943

Amen. One day avenging angels will sweep down upon this Earth and cleanse it of these Godless unbelievers. Then we will be free to worship the glory of God's numbers without them bringing logic into it.

[Anonymous No.5090964]

>>5090943
As if our current math system is complete. We will never have total knowledge and understanding of the universe. Pi is just egg all over our faces and the fact that we never can or will know its precise exact value is testament to the limitations of man.

[Anonymous No.5090965]

>>5090575
I thought that Pi was rational since it could be represented as a ratio. By definition is is the Circumference of a circle divided by it's diameter

one number over another, hence, rational

[Anonymous No.5090973]

>>5090964

Amen Brother. Yea, no man shall know the face of God, for his works are wonderous and beyond the keen of Man.

[Anonymous No.5090980]

>>5090973

WTF? Are you seriously suggesting that if we can calculate pi, then we will know God? Perhaps be as powerful as God? HOT SHIT! What are waiting for? Lets link all the world's computers together and get rolling on calculating that fucker out!

[Anonymous No.5090983]

SHUT THE FUCK UP ALL OF YOU
Why is Pi so special ? There are alot of other interesting number

[Anonymous No.5090990]

>a much deeper level of mathematical reality, that is just so fucking beyond the realm of human comprehension that we may never properly understand it?

There are a lot of things beyond the realm of human comprehention. As there are a lot of things beyond a dog's comprehention (economics, for example) or a fly's comprehention (language, for example), etc.

It would be naive to think there aren't complex parts of reality around us right now. We just can not understand them yet, not at this point of evolution.

[Anonymous No.5090992]

>>5090983

another Biblical number is 7, for the seven scrolls and the seven seals. read Revelation and you will shit your pants when you see what will happen when the 7 nations in the middle east rise up against israel.

[Anonymous No.5090987]

e is more interesting than pi.

Complex exponentials to the base e encode the sine and cosine functions which in turn have a period of 2pi.

[Anonymous No.5091011]

>>5090992
> 7
You can find huge amounts of events that match up with the number 7. It doesn't mean anything. If it was some number like 9246123764, it would make sense. Even then it has a slight chance of being a coincidence.

[Anonymous No.5091012]

>>5091011

einstien said God does not play with dice, so read the Bible for yourself.

[Nona No.5091014]

>>5090575
Watched a movie yesterday called "Pi". This mathematician dude who sounded just like you went crazy about the universal significance of pi, [spoiler] got involved with Judaism and the movie ended in a gristly way.

[Anonymous No.5091017]

>>5091014

because he was jewis?

[Anonymous No.5091019]

>>5091012
That's a pretty unsatisfying answer. Got and solid evidence ? Even an example would work.

[Anonymous No.5091024]

Why pi is irrational:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_%CF%80_is_irrational

[Anonymous No.5091027]

>>5090965

Rational means it can be represented as a ratio of INTEGERS, not just any ratio. (Obviously, any number can be represented as the ratio of itself to one, but that doesn't make every number rational.)

[Anonymous No.5091028]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox

[Anonymous No.5091030]

>>5091028

lol another panda bear mis-labeld

[Anonymous No.5091043]

>>5090575
What is brainshattering exactly ?

[Anonymous No.5091045]

>>5091030
That is the name of the stock image in windows 7 sample folder... I hues your beef is with Microsoft

[Anonymous No.5091051]

does anybody have the screenshot of google images searching "panda"?

[Anonymous No.5091052]

>>5090575
bigim

[Anonymous No.5091055]

>>5091045

So that's why I always see that fucking picture. Had to check 'Sample Pictures' to confirm and also saw that fucking jellyfish that gets posted on 4chan all the time too. It all makes sense now.

[Anonymous No.5091059]

>>5091055

yes, sense in the sense that nobody on /sci/ has any imagination.

i'd post a ponie but the world would explode.

[Anonymous No.5091080]

NEW CHAN OPENED

http://yumyum.pro/SexyBeautifulWomen/

[Anonymous No.5091083]

>>5091080

[Anonymous No.5091086]

>>5091052
>bigim
what's that?

[Anonymous No.5091095]

>>5091086

The Bigim theory. It's grade 3 stuff.

[Anonymous No.5091103]

Fuck pi. Fuck e. Fuck all dose shit numbers. Dey all is shit.

When you put dem all together niqqa, that's when you get tha MAGIC.

Dat euler dat euler

[Anonymous No.5091108]

>>5091086
fucking bigim

[Anonymous No.5091110]

>>5091086
Bitches don't know know bout bigim

[Anonymous No.5091115]

>>5091086
Can't go wrong with bigim.

[Anonymous No.5091116]

>>5091095
I remember those bigim work sheets.

My teacher got us pickle-scented stickers if we did well.

[Anonymous No.5091118]

>>5091086
can't touch my bigim

[Anonymous No.5091119]

>>5091103
In case anyone is wondering, from the power series of exp(x) and cos(x) and sin(x) we get.
exp(ix)=cos(x)+isin(x)
Let x=pi gives the magical looking equation exp(i*pi)+1=0, uniting the 5 most important numbers in mathematics.

[Anonymous No.5091120]

>>5091116
I remember having to do my bigim test on my annual PID... Such a rough day.

[Anonymous No.5091121]

Bigim complexes in 501(c)(3) ligands often cause degeneracy in organic proteins.

[Anonymous No.5091124]

>>5090772
This a million times.
We don't live in an euclidean universe OP, dealwithit.jpg

>>5090813
babby didn't notice Pi appears in Buffon's needle solution only because it involves angles, which are measured by...wait for it...the length of an arc of a unit circle. As long as we talk about angles we implicitely refer to circles, so >>5090772 's comment holds and your one-link reply does not.

[Anonymous No.5091127]

>>5091119
>the 5 most important numbers in mathematics.

lol

[Anonymous No.5091136]

>>5091127
>5 most important
>doesn't include bigim
lel that pleb, right guys?

[Anonymous No.5091140]

>>5091136
absolutely

[Anonymous No.5091170]

> Pi
> Not Phi
> 2012

[Anonymous No.5091198]

>>5091170
You mean tau. Get it right if you're trying to mock someone.

[Anonymous No.5091244]

>The Universe
Math is a system a priori.
You can connect the empirical plane with it, but math would do well without the universe as it is. That's the whole point.

[Anonymous No.5091876]

>>5091198
8/10 would copy paste to piss of /sci/

[Anonymous No.5091945]

>Science
>Math

Welcome to /x/?

[Anonymous No.5091950]

>>5090627
It hasn't been proven whether or not pi is normal, though it's suspected it is.

>>5090936
Genuinely convincing: 8/10

>>5091014
Interesting piece of trivia the most people know: Where the film shows hundreds of digits of pi on screen, only the first 8 are correct, the rest are random.

[Anonymous No.5091982]

>>5091876
I don't get it.

[Anonymous No.5091984]

>>5090575
why would you expect a ratio between radius and circumference to be simpler?

[Anonymous No.5091995]

>>5091945
Welcome to 4chan, dickwad.

[Anonymous No.5092100]

>>5090665
yeah and pi is not an important constant for elipses, or any curve at all right?

[Anonymous No.5092120]

>>5090992
>when the 7 nations in the middle east rise up against israel.
they get curbstomped by the usa?

[Anonymous No.5092130]

Bro, it's just the ratio of a circle's circumference and diameter. Not a big deal.

You must be pretty babby at math to not be posting about fi.

[Anonymous No.5092605]

>comes to /sci/ and poses metaphysical questions about pi

>expects serious answers
>>mfw when white grade 8 kiddies dont understand the questions let alone the answers
"But muh circumference divided by radius, what is hard to understand?"

You got to understand that /sci/ is not a serious maths or science forum. Its full of dickheads, ignorants and abusive jerks. If you have got questions like these you have to go to a serious maths forum if you really want some intelligent opinions from people who actually know what you are talking about. Do a search on the web, you are just wasting your time here.

If you are just trolling or cruising for a laugh, want help with your homework, then please excuse me, you are in the right place.

"

[Anonymous No.5092863]

>>5092130

Just shut the fuck up please you stupid retarded dumbshit. There. I asked nicely.

[Anonymous No.5092875]

Math is everywhere, math is mysterious, math is beyond the physical, math is god.

Also, phi is the best number.

[Anonymous No.5092890]

>>5092875

(1+sqrt5)/2

[Anonymous No.5092914]

>>5092890

x^2 = x+1

[Anonymous No.5092956]

You'll just have to deal with the fact that you'll never be able to find the exact dimensions of a circle.

[Anonymous No.5092969]

The set of irrational and transcendental numbers are an entire order of magnitude more infinite than the rationals and integers, so it's really not surprising that most constants are transcendental.

[Anonymous No.5093355]

Pi is just 22/7. Big deal.

[Anonymous No.5093359]

>>5090575
>Just why the fuck does such a fundamental number have to be FUCKING IRRATIONAL and TRANSCENDENTAL???

Because we made the whole thing up.

[Anonymous No.5093367]

>>5091028
>>5091030
>>5091045
>>5091055
Holy shit what a revelation.My mind is suddenly one with the universal truth.

[Anonymous No.5093372]

>>5092120
If the Oosans can survive long enough in any one of those nations, then yes. But I have a feeling they'll be clapping so hard after the endless stream of Bobbies and Johnys curbstomps one of those nations that they'll just back off from the conflict instead.

[Anonymous No.5093413]

There's a movie called "pi" you might be interested in, it's not bad, even though it has some Jew stuff in it. Look it up
I always get the feeling that pi is somehow the answer to the universe, the fundamentals of it or something

[Anonymous No.5093440]

>like a much deeper level of mathematical reality
It's called advanced maths, you should try it.

[Anonymous No.5093445]

because pi are square

[Anonymous No.5093447]

>>5090575
Euler: e ^ (i * pi) + 1 = 0

[Anonymous No.5093458]

>>5090575
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/1997/04/15-02.html

[Anonymous No.5093541]

>>5093355

22/7 is an approximation to pi. There are many others. All of them are APPROXIMATIONS, not actually pi itself.

I seriously suggest that, unless you are 14 years old or younger, in all honesty and respect, that you immediately abandon any aspirations you may have had in achieving a future based on your mathematical skills and knowledge

[Anonymous No.5093550]

>>5093458

Holy shit!

[Anonymous No.5093674]

>>5093541
Isn't everything an approximation to pi? Unless you have a calculator larger than the entire universe.

[Anonymous No.5093698]

>>5093674
>having to ask this

[Anonymous No.5093722]

>>5093674
Let there be a circle with diameter d and circumference c.
=> pi = c/d

[Anonymous No.5093847]

I think of numbers like pi as singularities. If you imagine reality as a topographical surface and mathematics as a numerical grid we lay over top that surface, then numbers like pi are like bottomless holes in that surface similar in shape to the classic portrayal of a wormhole. When you throw the grid over this hole, you wind up with a situation where you can never identify the node which should be at the center of the hole because it gets sucked down into the singularity. You can follow it deeper into the wormhole, getting closer and closer to an exact value as the hole tapers toward a point, but due to the nature of reality's topography you will never reach an exact value, hence the endless repeating decimals.

[Anonymous No.5093953]

>>5093847
in that analogy, there would be pretty much wormholes, since the irrational numbers are a dense subset of the real numbers.

[Anonymous No.5093980]

God probably just chose it at random.

[Anonymous No.5093997]

dude dont even go near infinite if you can't wrap your mind around Pi

[Anonymous No.5094049]

>>5093953
every complex number is a singularity because their complement is open
yeah there are pretty much wormholes

[Anonymous No.5095189]

>>5093847

"Open the pod bay door, HAL."
"I'm sorry, Dave, I cant do that."

Later on....

"MY GOD! ITS FULL OF WORMHOLES!"

Dave gets reborn as pi, cue music.

End.

[Anonymous No.5095260]

<span class="math">\tau[/spoiler] was here, <span class="math">\pi[/spoiler] is a faggot.

[Anonymous No.5095268]

>>5095260
Confirmed for highschooler.

[Anonymous No.5095279]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_(number)

One

Brainshattering shit.

Just why does the Universe have to pull this shit on us?

Just why the fuck does such a fundamental number have to be FUCKING RATIONAL and SIMULTANEOUSLY NOT PRIME YET NOT COMPOSITE???

For fucks sake! Dont you ever get the feeling that there is something fundamental behind this? Something so profound, like a much deeper level of mathematical reality, that is just so fucking beyond the realm of human comprehension that we may never properly understand it?

Have any of you got any insights into why this shit happens, and if so, just what is the Universe trying to tell us about the nature of reality?

(Arrogant douchebags with pinhead comprehension of big pcture stuff should not reply)

[Anonymous No.5095298]

Actually in real life nothing goes on that forever so, pi being irrational is meaningless. The smallest distance that can ever be conceived is planck distance whiwh is about 10^-35 m. So that's as finer as your NGon will get, note that I'm refering to a circle as an Ngon with sides of planck unit length. Such a "circle" wouldn't have an irrational diameter to radius ratio.
Same reason why xeon's paradox doesn't matter, because we cannot halve things forever

[Anonymous No.5095319]

>>5095298
>Same reason why xeon's paradox doesn't matter, because we cannot halve things forever

That's not why it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.5095325]

>>5095279
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLkou8NvJo

[Anonymous No.5095331]

>>5093458
>http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/1997/04/15-02.html

>talking about information entropy

What the hell, how is this a new idea--

>by Science News Staff on 15 April 1997, 8:00 PM

Oh.

[Anonymous No.5095403]

Hi!

My name is Xwertyc hul Dasdfrig!

I am an advanced human who comes from far into your future (haha, actually we are transhumans now).

Just going to give you cavemen a little heads up on your entire number things. Look, sorry to tell you this but what you think now is completely fucked up. You actually count "things"? Like one rock, two rocks, three rocks and so on? Oh my aching robotic sides! So much laffs for me and my cyborg friends! We dropped the whole notion of counting things thousands and thousands of years ago!

It all began when a pretty young disembodied intelligence called Fuionu det Murdocx realised that there is no such thing as whole numbers!

Primative humans based their entire concepts of maths on counting whole numbers! No wonder everything got haywire fucked up with sheet like pi and e and zero and omega-tan (oh wait, this is 2012? You guys havent discovered omega-tan yet? Fuck. Just forget what I said, ok? I was talking about getting, umm, umm, a sunTAN with fatty OMEGA fish oils! OK? ok? umm, yes, thats right.)

(excusing me I must be having this fit of laffing now)

So anyways, this delicatable and very nubile Fuionu det Murdocx ( with her perky jiggly quantum based logic fluctations) discovered that just as the physical world is only a three dimensional representation of a higher dimensional reality, it made no sense to count Whole numbers! So we completely revised our comlete understanding of maths and based it on true random values found in the motion of stock market shares from the year 2053. Which of course, as you all know, is when it was revealed to the world that planes cant actually fly and are held aloft in the sky by aerodynamic faith alone.

Wait. This is 2012? FUCK FUCK FUCK! I gone omegatansquirted again!

[Anonymous No.5095414]

>>5090575
>fascinated by shit-teir mathematics
>looking for meaning where there is none
>asks pointless questions

When do you graduate high school?

[Anonymous No.5095423]

>>5095414
Oh look, it's this guy again.

[Anonymous No.5095433]

>>5095423
Except he's right. This is basic cartesian geometry and has nothing to do with "the universe".

OP is a pseudomath numerologist.

[Anonymous No.5095455]

>>5095325

HOLY CRAP THIS SHIT GETS AMAZING.

Thank you for that mid blowing clip.

[Anonymous No.5095507]

>>5095414

Gee, now I know why the OP said 'arrogant douchebags need not reply". Seriously, where do you get off on being such a jerk? Personally I find these questions interesting, if only to reconsider the nature of constants that we readily take for granted. I honestly doubt you are some sort of mathematical genius, maybe you have done some calc, find it easy, and now think you are somehow better than most people? Why dont you take a look at some of the vids by Vi Hart and realise that true mathematical genius can still take wonder at the nature of mathematics and take delight in examing the fundamentals of some of the weird and unusal concepts our knowledge of maths has derived?

TL:DR Just shut up you "arrogant douchebag".

[sage No.5095535]

>>5095507
You are a sad, pathetic troll.

This is numerology. It does not belong on /sci/.

[Anonymous No.5095536]

>>5095507
>Vi Hart

Shit tier troll is shit tier.

[Anonymous No.5095563]

>>5095535

wow, seriously dude, what is wrong with you? You come here with the intent to give butthurt and then get butthurt when you get told some home truths about yourself.
Dude, seriously, you have some issues, you should try to get them sorted.

[Anonymous No.5095572]

>>5095563
What are you even talking about? How does my post give butthurt at all? I am just reiterating 4chan rules.

This thread is pseudomathematics. OP will be reported and banned for inane /x/ conspiracy garbage.

[Anonymous No.5095608]

>>5090575
Don't do drugs, kids.

[Anonymous No.5095697]

>>5095536

WTF are you talking about? Vi hart is an amazing mathematician, albeit a "recreational" one. Nothing shit tier or trollish in her videos at all. What she does is creative and inspiring, and certainly gives people in general, especially kids, a deeper insight into the the aesthetic beauty that lies behind mathematics. But I guess if you are devoid of emotions you never get to see any of that.

[Anonymous No.5095793]

>>5095403

All the joking aside I wouldnt be surprised if this guy is actually alluding to something quite right. All our mathematics are based on purely theorticial constructs, There is no such thing, in reality, as a "straight line between two points". There is no such thing as a "circle". They exist only in our imaginations. The same could be said of our number theory. Zero is merely an aribitary point where we decide to start counting things. The thing is our mathematics works, and works well in all sorts of practical engineering applications, from building bridges to space exploration to programming computers. But Issac Newton's laws of motion also work well, but we now know, due to the theory of relativity, that they are approximations of reality. Newtons laws work well for our everyday experiences because we dont ususally get to experience near light speed travel or massive gravitational effects. What I get out of the original post is that certain numbers like pi may (and I emthphaise the "may") point to inconsistencies in our mathematical understanding, or perhaps they just point to yet-to-be-discovered mathematical truths that reveal why such numbers have, and must have, the nature and properties that they exhibit. I see nothing wrong about speculation along those lines, especially if there are people out there who might have something constructive and intelligent to say on that subject. Why so much childish arguing and name calling on some /sci/ threads?Speculation by mathematical theroists has probably been ridiculed many times through history before they lead to mathematical proofs. I feel that many people think the final word in maths has already been said, yet the fact remains that today there are many different expanding branches of maths and much we still dont know. One example is that it is still not known if pi is a normal number. There is speculation that it is, but no proof.

[Anonymous No.5095817]

>>5095793
>Zero is merely an aribitary point where we decide to start counting things.
Stopped reading there. Zero is the additive identity.

Whatever else you say is ultimately invalidated by such a faux-pas.

[Anonymous No.5095824]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=YOQb_mtkEEE&feature=fvwp

The music of pi.

I found this oddly moving. How strange.

[Anonymous No.5095832]

>>5095817

Ok, whatever your high school teacher taught you, why dont you just move on, go design a water tank or something?

[Anonymous No.5095838]

Pi ain't got shit on e.

When they first taught us e in school I thought it was some random number. Yeah 1/n! Whatever but e can be derived so many fucking ways.

And it fucking appears in shit having nothing to do with factorials.

e=badass

Get on my level

[Anonymous No.5095845]

>>5095824

>I found this oddly moving. How strange

You found it moving because you're primed to project emotion onto it. That's the problem with OP. He found something he finds neat and is filled wonder but lets it consume him entirely. His brain stops working and he can't move past that point because he's too busy basking in the wonder of pi. When someone dissents, he reacts emotionally with insults. When someone tries to explain something, no it's not a sufficient explanation. It has to be something more (because he FEELS there's something more). Next stop: worshiping pi.

These kinds of people aren't prepared for science and math. They can be rational to a point but then they get too emotional about it all and stop thinking clearly. When everyone points out their flaws they get upset and become disillusioned. At that point they rebel against the status quo (which births their brand new persecution complex, the science establishment won't let me be, they're trying to silence me). Then they make a site called piecube.com where they proclaim pi to be the one true truth.

We don't need to be moved. That's what art is for. If you want to be moved by beauty, go study art before Modernism.

[Anonymous No.5095851]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rA4ZRErflE&feature=relmfu

This one is the music of tau. Its pretty cool too. Funny that you also get some really negative comments as well. There must be a lot of really sad and lonely people in the world.

[Anonymous No.5095862]

>>5095845

I, for one, welcome our new pi overlord.

Death to the anti-pi! Hear that e worshippers? Verily you shall burn in wau!

[Anonymous No.5095865]

>>5095824
>I found this oddly moving.

The distribution of gaps in prime numbers is far more fascinating than the digits of pi.

The digits of pi are indistinguishable from noise, whereas the prime gap distribution has a poorly understood pattern.

Listen to it here: http://oeis.org/play?seq=A001223

[Anonymous No.5095873]

>>5095832
Zero is anything but fucking arbitrary. It has a very precise meaning. To put you further in your place, I've read more of your post.

>There is no such thing, in reality, as a "straight line between two points".
The path travelled by a photon in a flat region of spacetime.

>Newton's laws work well for our everyday experiences
GPS

PI is well understood in the sense that primes are well understood. Your extensive and poorly constructed wall of text is mostly either false or rhetoric. Please, build my water tank.

[Anonymous No.5095883]

>>5090665

are you stupid?
the addition of orbitals in atoms and molecules add up to a spherical shape, "packing of spheres" in solid matter, lipids when in water form globular aggregations as to not disturb the hydrogen bond network and minimize free energy. EVERYTHING has to do with circles or spheres; our FUCKING eyes are spheres

[Anonymous No.5095897]

>>5090665
>Too bad nothin natural uses pi anyway

i'm natural and i eat pies.

[Anonymous No.5095913]

We are on our way to becoming gods ourselves and playing god if science keeps progressing the way it is.

[Anonymous No.5095922]

>>5095873
>The path travelled by a photon in a flat region of spacetime.
To be fair, there's no such thing as a flat region of spacetime

[Anonymous No.5095931]

>>5095922
Prove it.

[Anonymous No.5095957]

OP, there's no such thing as a circle. Pi is a human invention derived from an arbitrary procedure that has no relation to reality whatsoever.

/thread

[Anonymous No.5095959]

>>5090639
>>5090655
>>5090663

This is rediculous thinking, Pi in any base is Pi (3.14159). It's a ratio, not a number.

We don't take the diameter to be 10, we take it to be 1 because it's a ratio. If you live with a base 106 system you'll still take the diameter as 1 for a ratio and pi will still be 3.14159 because it's the most basic level for which you can represent it. Sure if you take the diameter as 106 then the circumference will be 333, but Pi is still fucking 3.14159.

Pi no matter what, in our universe, is 3.14159...

[Anonymous No.5095966]

>>5090655

That's what I tried to fucking tell them.

[Anonymous No.5096017]

read this and die
http://tauday.com/tau-manifesto

[Anonymous No.5096041]

>>5090575

OP you are not alone. There are many open problems in maths concerning pi. The difference between shit tier and bro tier mathematicians is that the shit tier guys just dont want to think outside the circle (no pun intended). The bro tier people keep questioning and looking for deeper mathematical truths. The shit tiers people are unfortunately necesssary to human society. We have got to have someone to fix the coffee machine when it breaks down, dont we?

Keep asking, keep wondering, keep learning. Dig deep at the hard questions, thats were real investigation begins. Ignore the trolls and the people trapped inside the circle. A lot of them are just envious that they are unable to think creatively. Thats why they will always be stuck fixing the mathematical equivalent of coffee machinesfor the rest of their careers.

[Anonymous No.5096061]

Here's an interesting thing. We know that all digits keep appearing down the line in the pi sequence, except for 6. Why should 6 stop appearing? The simple fact is no one knows why.

[Anonymous No.5096093]

One day you pifaggots will be brought to justice and dealt with. Then the glorius reign of tau shall begin! ALL HAIL TAU!

I feel the need to offer a blood sacrifice to our new God. To slice out its heart and consume it as an offering to the HOLY ENTITY THAT IS TAU!

Hmmm, this delicious chocolate cake will do.

[Anonymous No.5096124]

What would be the implications of discovering that pi terminates or repeats? How will this shake up up the world of mathematics? What will change?

[Anonymous No.5096168]

It's easy to assume transcendental numbers are these rare, special thing. But if you think about it the "average" real number is transcendental. I'm not saying that Pi is not special just that it being transcendental is not what to focus on.

[Anonymous No.5096493]

>>5096124

It would make us feel that we have been on the recieving end of some cosmic joke. The superior intelligences that are monitoring us will watch us carefully. If we get all butthurt and start raging then they will simply make this universe vanish and start again. I advise you all to keep your happy faces on should this eventuate. Practice jovial and good-natured laughing a lot too. Some back slapping and guffawing would be helpful as well.

[Anonymous No.5096512]

Isnt this a bit like the heisenburg uncertainity principle?

If you know the circumference you will never be able to accurately measure the radius. If you know the radius you will never be able to accurately measure the circumference.

[Anonymous No.5096526]

>>5096124
It would mean that <span class="math">\pi[/spoiler] is a rational number, and therefore something is wrong with the proofs showing it isn't.

[Anonymous No.5096579]

>>5096168
>But if you think about it the "average" real number is transcendental.

Explain this?

[Anonymous No.5096582]

>>5096512
what you stated is like it, but what you stated has no rationale.

There is no reason the knowledge of one thing should interfere with the ability to measure the other.

[Anonymous No.5096587]

I find the concept of irrational numbers, as well as things like "divde by zero" , to be deeply unsatisfying. I can work them, yes, I understand the rational behind them all, but I think they all point to fundamental flaws existing in our underlying assumptions of mathematical proofs. Its like driving along in a car. A car that you have had for many years and is very reliable. It gets you were you want to go. But it occassionally makes a weird sound every now and again.

You take it to all the mechanics in the world. They hear the sound too. Some say "its nothing to worry about, ignore it". Some say "well thats baffling, not sure what is causing that sound because there is nothing we can find that would make that sound, but your car runs fine!" One or two mechanics say "Yeah, we know, we dont understand it either, we will keep working on it, maybe one day we will figure it out, in the meantime happy driving!". One mechanic out of a million will say, "Buddy, your car is fine for what you need, but the sound you hear is because the car is built the wrong way". Astonished, you reply "But can you fix it?" The mechanic shakes his head and says "Sorry, the fault goes back all the way through every single component, you dont need a new car, you need a new form of transport, oh and by the way, please dont tell anyone I said that, the other mechanics will get enraged."

cont...

[Anonymous No.5096589]

You are puzzeled by the last remark. "Why will they get enraged?" you ask. "The mechanic sighs and tells you. "Well many have built their careers on the existing design of this mode of transport. Some would be angry that their entire belief system has been based on a flawed system that has suddenly been exposed as second rate. Some would be envious if it was not them who thought of the new mode of transport, their egos get in the way. Others would be upset they are simply afraid of the unkown."

"I see", you reply. You get back in the car, wave goodbye and drive off. You listen to the weird sound that comes from the car. You listen intently each time it happens. And you smile.

[Anonymous No.5096594]

>>5096061
I just HATE when people make these kinds of bizarre assertions.

What you said is nonsense; all numerals (including 6) appear in the representation of pi.
Asshat.

[Anonymous No.5096602]

>>5090655
'Superior' but it works only 'reasonably well'?

How can something foreign, unfamiliar, and a with such a moderate fit to whatever laws and standards you are considering actually be considered 'better'?

[Anonymous No.5096608]

>>5090595

Oh look, a sentient subset of the universe is spewing linguistic patterns at me about how the universe isn't sentient and doesn't spew patterns.

I get your point. The universe at large isn't alive.

But I feel some day it might be, if advanced civilizations end up building an interplanetary/interstellar/intergalactic civilization the distant future, then perhaps a large enough percentage of the universe will be conscious that a collective hivemind could be built that takes up a large percentage of the universe.

Then there's you. You aren't one creature. You're a community of trillions of cells that labels itself as one unit for linguistic, social, and philosophical convenience.

Also, see Asimov's short story "the last question." The universe could be an endless cycle where sentient beings create an artificial God to reverse entropy (the end-all of technology) and renew the universe like some kind of infinite pheonix rising from its own ashes.

I'm not saying these things are true, valid, testable, or that they have anything to do with proper science. Just a lot more interesting than fundietard concepts of religion.

[Anonymous No.5096620]

>read OP's post.
>/sci/ confirmed for a fantasy forum.
>Nice job OP.

0/10.

[Anonymous No.5096628]

>>5096587
This story illustrates why people don't like to change from a traditional assumption,
but it seems to have nothing to do with the thread,
which isn't about tradition or assumptions at all.

Did you have some error in mind?

[Anonymous No.5096689]

>>5090987
Complex exponentials with any base are sines and cosines.

<span class="math">n^{ix} = e^{\log n^{ix}} =e^{ix \log n} = \cos (x \log n) + i \sin (x \log n)[/spoiler]

[Anonymous No.5096704]

actually if you look at the fundemental basis of pi .. having to do with cirlces you can make the argument that it is just the ratio of curvature of space local to our planet

[Anonymous No.5096715]

>>5096704
No, not local to our planet.

A circle isn't curved because of local space; there is such a thing as a circle in abstract, and that still has the same ratio.

[Anonymous No.5096906]

Irrational numbers like piare just the universe's way of mocking us puny humans. A perfect circle can not exist in nature, therefore our attempts to create them in theory result in absurdities like pi, which is a value that can not be physically measured by any means.In other words something that is not real can never have a precise measurement. Therefore it stands to reason that any irrational number means its representation in reality is utter nonsense. The great Weros has spoken.

[Anonymous No.5096959]

>>5096906
You don't need to draw / measure anything to evaluate pi.

[Anonymous No.5097467]

>>5096959

Thats right! You can simply evaluate the pi is unmeasurable to any final accuracy.

Dickhead.

[Anonymous No.5097490]

>>5090639
π/π

[Anonymous No.5099040]

Man, I just read through this entire thread. None of you have an insights into the nature of pi? Just the usual cabbagebrains and "I cant comprehend English so I will offer my irrelevant retard comment anyway" Am disappoint. But the bit about "advanced humans and the robot" was sort of funny.

[Anonymous No.5099054]

>>5096628

Are you hinestly so dense that you can not understand the significance of that story as it relates to OP's post and the attitudes and opinions revealed by some of the posters comments in this thread.

Seriously, you cant see it? Is English your second language?

[Anonymous No.5099071]

>>5096628

Are you so dense that you can not understand the significance of that story as it relates to OP's post and the attitudes and opinions revealed by some of the posters comments in this thread?

Seriously, you cant see it? Is English your second language?

[Anonymous No.5099077]

>>5090627
Rationality and transcendence are not properties based on base.

[Anonymous No.5099086]

Pi's weirdness is just a complication of impure math

[Anonymous No.5099122]

Most numbers aren't rational or transcendental. The area around a circle is not an integer, and it's length isn't the root of a polynomial with integer co-ordinates, so why should pi be either of those. It's a real number doesn't fall into a special infinitesimal subset of those. Please explain how if pi = 67836/21593 or pi^5 - 3 pi^2 +7pi - 3 = 0 would make the Universe make more sense.

[Anonymous No.5099153]

>>5099086

+1

One of the few intelligent and insightful comments posted on this thread that actually adresses OP's questions. My hat is off to you Sir.

[Anonymous No.5099162]

>>5095824
All this is doing is using Pi as a random number generator for choosing notes on a major scale. It sounds good because the major scale sounds good. There is nothing musical about Pi, unless you get into the mathematics of sound waves and shit.

[Anonymous No.5099178]

What if we developed a mathematical system based around Pi, e.g. Pi=1, 2 Pi=2, and so on?

[Anonymous No.5099200]

>>5099162

I wonder why some music sounds "good" and some sounds bad. Of course there is are cultural and enviromental elements that shape us to defining what is a "good" or pleasing sound as opposed to a "bad sound". But I wonder if anyone has done a cross cultural study across the world to see if there near concenus among humans as to any particular chords, dischords, harmonies and note progressions etc and sounds that are "good" or bad"

Do all peoples percieve a minor chord as "sad"? Do all peoples percieve a major progression as pleasing? Is the sound of fingernails scrapping across a chalk board as regugnant to Mongolians as equally to English people? It would make an interesting study with massive travel perks and great opportunities to screw many hot chicks across the world. I'm gonna apply for funding.

[Anonymous No.5099203]

>>5099200
Not saying I understand completely but the book "This is Your Brain on Music" is very enlightening on the subject

[Anonymous No.5099205]

>>5099178

Brilliant idea! I dont care if what you suggest actually makes no sense and is full of logical fallacies, but ANYTHING to get get rid of those FUCKING IRRATIONAL NUMBERS! For the LOVE of GOD please! They do me head in!

[Anonymous No.5099215]

>>5099200

A better study, and more to the point, would be to apply for funding to study women's orgasms.

The following research topics could be applied:

Are there any cultural differences in
a) The length of a woman's orgasm?
b) The amount of their thrashing around?
c) The pitch of their squeals?
d) Stickiness coefficient measurements?

This sort of study could be spun out over decades of intense and often perilous research. I, for one, would be willing to undertake such a project as a heroic front line data gatherer.