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/sci/ - Science & Math

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4676028 No.4676028[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

How to prove we are p-zombies:
>Get a human embryo and incubate it
>wait for it to divide into three cells
>split them, put each into its own incubator under identical conditions
>you now have three identical twins
>raise all in lab, two under identical conditions to avoid epigenetic changes, and another control under different conditions such as diet/sleep/etc
>teach two same things, teach the one control that the color "yellow" is actually "red"
>test colors, see what they respond
>no changes, except in the one which was taught differently
>now test emotion
>two identical twins will have the same exact responses to the same stimulus because neural networks are identical, the control will be different
>same qualia, different qualia in control
>qualia are therefore depend on genetics and stimulus to neuronal circuits during growth
>qualia are not real, they are an illusion, and there are only physical correlates to consciousness
<div class="math">\mathcal{QED}</div>

>> No.4676031

>>4676028
I'm not sure how you disproved qualia with that.

>> No.4676032

I don't understand. Isn't this obvious?

>> No.4676038

>>4676032
Paradox.

>> No.4676039

>>4676028
I have no idea what Qualia is, but I can tell you this: Siamese twins who have been exposed to the exact same stimulus and conditions and have the same genetic material develop distinct personalities.

>> No.4676040

>>4676032
It sure isn't to IQ fundie

>> No.4676041

>>4676039
> exact same stimulus
Nope.

>> No.4676037

>>4676031
There wouldn't be any differences in emotion between two identical twins under identical stimulus

Thus they are p-zombies and qualia are an illusion

>> No.4676042

>>4676039
Nope.

>> No.4676044

The anemone's eyes roll back in her head as she reaches her climax first, hips shaking and penis squirting a glob of semen that drools down the side. Your own orgasm takes a bit longer, but the convulsing walls of her pussy do their best to help you arrive and the feelers along her labia writhe against your cock in the same tempo, injecting the last of their venom. With a deep, final thrust, your shaft erupts in her pussy. You continue to pour into her even after her convulsions stop, stretching her belly. She looks thoroughly pregnant when you've finished, her little blue dick poking out below a swollen stomach... not a bad look, actually. You get a little turned on at the idea. After the last of your cum has been squeezed out, you pull your cock out and rinse it off in the lakewater. You gather your gear while the anemone holds her belly and smiles placidly, staring into the sky.

>> No.4676046

OP doesn't understand what qualia means.

>> No.4676049
File: 42 KB, 400x361, 0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4676049

>>4676041
yup.

>> No.4676051

>>4676046
i do. If qualia were real the twins would not respond the same. The brain is a biological computer.

>> No.4676055

>>4676051
Way to show that you didn't understand them. Go be ignorant somewhere else.

>> No.4676057

>>4676049
You can't say their stimuli are exactly the same. One is the left twin. One is the right twin. They see the same objects, but from different positions. That makes all stimuli the receive simultaneously to be distinct.

>> No.4676060

I didn't read your post OP, but I saw QED after something that didn't look like math, so I'm assuming its bullshit.

>> No.4676058

>>4676051
>Qualia exists.
>The mind is the sole result of biochemical etc. processes in the brain.
I don't see how those are contradictory statements.

>> No.4676066

>>4676055
IQ fundie without trip detected
Explain how the experiment is flawed

>> No.4676067

>>4676060
You had to read the QED to see it's bullshit? As if it wasn't obvious from the word "qualia" in the title.

>> No.4676078

>>4676058
Qualia are supposedly not measurable, this shows they can be with a clone/identical twin as they do not produce unique responses to stimulus. They are p-zombies.

>> No.4676080

>>4676066
You won't understand it, because you're either a troll or mentally challenged. So this explanations is for all the readers of this thread who have an IQ above the retard range: Qualia are purely subjective and cannot be communicated. All the experiment tests is that same physical perceptions lead to same neuronal response. That's no big news and more importantly it's unrelated to qualia. We still don't know how the perception subjectively feels to the persons.

>> No.4676081

>>4676051
You underestimate the law of chaos.

Even under the same conditions, the chemical reactions in the brains, who are part of the thought process, are bound to the randomness of quantum events that always process in all mater.

Even strictly two inert identical objects, not even as complex as the brain, exposed to the same condition, will evolve during time differently, developing different internal structures because of the randomness of the qauntum level affecting higher chemical reaction and general matter behavior.

Two distinct brains, even under the same stimuluses and even being initially identical, will develop internal differences.

>> No.4676083

>>4676078
Except that your premises are wrong. In order to say that identical twins have to have the same qualia, you would already have to be able to measure or observe them. This is impossible.

>> No.4676090

>>4676080
If the perception to stimulus were different, the twins wouldn't produce the same responses

>> No.4676092
File: 149 KB, 1312x493, 1336168644341.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4676092

Prove me wrong motherfuckers

>> No.4676100

>>4676092
To prove you wrong, I'd first have to understand what the fuck your macro is supposed to represent.

>> No.4676101

>>4676083
It is indirect measurement
qualia cannot influence responses to ordinary stimuli, so they do not exist.

>> No.4676104

dualism pls go

>> No.4676105

>>4676092
Fuck off IQ fundie

>> No.4676106

>>4676090
False. You can react the same exact way to two distinct stimuli. Ever cried from laughter? Ever cried from sadness?

>> No.4676112

>>4676106
>You
That is the difference.
This is an exact duplicate copy of your brain exposed to the same exact tests.

>> No.4676117

>>4676100
Wave function collapse is caused by qualia

>> No.4676118

ITT people still don't understand what qualia is and tries to argue against something they don't know shit about.

Qualia CANNOT be disproved, which is why it isn't science but philosophy. No experiment can tell you qualia does or does not exist, that's the whole fucking point of the argument of qualia in the first place. Qualia is a philosophical argument that there are things simply beyond scientific reach, that by itself should tell you that you can't argue against it empirically. If you want to argue against it, use philosophy.

>> No.4676121

>>4676117

Motherfucker that is not even what "observation" means in the copenhagen interpretation

>> No.4676123

>>4676112
Not exactly the same copy.

Let the set of points my body occupies at any point in time by S(t).
Let the set of points my clone body occupies at any point in time by C(t).

S(t) doesn't equal C(t).

>> No.4676126

>>4676121
2deep4u

>> No.4676129

>>4676117
>qualia
Go away, IQF.

>> No.4676137

>>4676118
You do not understand the experiment.
The existence of qualia implies separation from the mind so a soul exists. If so the twins would not really be identical regardless of the brain structure

>> No.4676138

>>4676118
I still don't know what Qualia is.

>> No.4676140

There's no need to prove qualia aren't real, because there's no reason to believe they are.

>> No.4676143

>>4676137
read this>>4676081
The brains won't be identical anyway.

>> No.4676145

>>4676123
You argument implies a soul

All of the matter in the twin can be replaced with the matter in the other twin, it is exactly the same

>> No.4676150

so basically qualia would be what I picture in my head when I think of say, 'Red'?

>> No.4676152

>>4676145
How does spatial distance between bodies imply a soul? o.0

All the matter is exactly the same, sure. Their position in space differ.

>> No.4676154

>>4676143
The brain is a classical system. Neurons are too big to be influenced by quantum events

>> No.4676155

>>4676137
This is so wrong. *facepalm*

The existence of qualia doesn't imply a soul separate from the body. And people could still experience different qualia despite identical brain functions. You don't get it.

>> No.4676158

>>4676150
Yes.

>> No.4676177

>>4676155
No they cannot. What you say implies dualism

>> No.4676184

>>4676154
Neurons themselves aren't, indeed, but the neurotransmitters themselves are small enough and happens on such an high frequencies that, they, can be influenced by the pure randomness of the qauntum world.

And Neurotransmitter are an essential part of the thought process.

Two strictly identical brains, exposed to the same stimulus, will inevitably evolve differently, given enough time.