/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.4621035]

Business school fag here, so forgive my ignorance. And I'm not trying to troll, this is a serious question:

How does evolution jive with the second law of thermodynamics and entropy? From my limited understanding, nature tends to move from order to disorder, but evolution moves the other way, becoming more ordered and more complicated as time goes on. I understand survival of the fittest and it makes plenty of sense when comparing similar species, but I don't get how simple single-cell life managed to evolve as far as it has.

I'm sure I'm totally misrepresenting or misinterpreting something here. I guess I just want to know the basic reason why life becomes so much more complicated over time.

[yeep !HCCDB7tu.A No.4621048]

I'm no evolution expert but I'm sure someone will correct me quickly so.

I think you may misunderstand evolution. Evolution isn't goal oriented like a lot of people think. It's a combination of completely random mutations (some good, some bad) and evolutionary pressure.

[Anonymous No.4621050]

Holy fucking shit @ignorance.
If you even care to ask it on /sci/, research what evolution is actually about you fucking retard and just don't read up on some bullshit creationist propaganda. Fuck I miss the old /sci/.

Let me give you a simple explanation: Using your same logic, a seed shouldn't be able to turn into a sunflower because 2nd law hurrdynamics.

I don't think explaining the science behind it will help you any more. I hope other /sci/entists don't explain it to this fuck either.

[Anonymous No.4621052]

>How does evolution jive with the second law of thermodynamics and entropy?

Short asnwer: the sun is a constant energy source, so the second law isn't violated.

[Anonymous No.4621053]

Yes, this is the main mistranslation between Thermodynamics and concepts you learn in biology such as evolution. Everything a species does in order to survive or replicate, say a singular organism evolving to a multi-cellular one always involves some sort of work. This "work" is overlooked in much of the definitions you might see where there are examples you think that nature only just works to become more orderly when you're told it should be the opposite case. These modes that seemingly "minimize entropy" is not actually the case, and most of the time heat, energy, and work are overlooked functions of Thermodynamic law until you actually use it to calculate stuff for physics class.

[Anonymous No.4621059]

as long as entropy increases you can go against chaos in the sense you are referring to. Think about how it takes time for stars to form and to assemble heavier elements that can eventually become planets and so on, the complexity of the universe increase all the time alongside entropy.

[Anonymous No.4621061]

>>4621052
>>4621052
>>4621052
This. The earth is not a closed system.

[valjean !!4SOyPF0IuOv No.4621065]

> From my limited understanding, nature tends to move from order to disorder
Overall, everything does move that way. But you can have complexity develop in regions where large amounts of energy are available, e.g. near the sun.
>but I don't get how simple single-cell life managed to evolve as far as it has.
No one really knows. But amino acids are all over the place, and creating lipid bilayer proto-cells from common chemicals is pretty easy. The chemistry involved in a basic life form is complex but not impossible, especially when you think about how many "experiments" (I want to be careful with this word because nature doesn't actually act with a goal) nature ran over billions of years with all those organic chemicals sitting around with one another chilling.

[Anonymous No.4621137]

>>4621035

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life

In short, the entropy occurring in the sun is far greater than the order caused by evolution, when looked at from a numerical standpoint.

[Anonymous No.4621145]

The same way ice freezes. You can decrease the entropy of one thing as long as you're increasing the entropy of something else. That something else is wherever your waste heat goes, and in order to have waste heat, you have to have energy. Life needs energy. Fortunately there's a gigantic power source called the sun.

[Anonymous No.4621156]

I'm not OP, but thanks for explaining this.
My physics teach told me that evolution was impossible because of the second law of thermodynamics and I really didn't know enough to prove him wrong.
Thanks guys.

[Anonymous No.4621162]

>>4621035
Its not altogether uncommon to see interesting behaviours in a system on its path to equilibrium. Entropy can be considered as the drive towards equilibrium in the universe, evolution is one of the many interesting behaviours going on in the meanwhile. They're occurring on different timescales.

[Filosofer scientist linguist No.4621337]

>>4621156
>My physics teach told me that evolution was impossible because of the second law of thermodynamics and I really didn't know enough to prove him wrong.

Wtf. U live in USA? :<

[Anonymous No.4621341]

>>4621035
Not a closed system.
Sun, volcanic activity, etc.

[Anonymous No.4621562]

>but evolution moves the other way, becoming more ordered and more complicated as time goes on. I understand survival of the fittest

You obviously don't. Evolution, nature, whatever you want to call it, does not evolve in any specific direction in the long run.

In the short run, yes, it follows the law of the survival of the fittest, that is, that species which can adapt and cope with the environment the most efficiently has the highest probability of survival.

But in the long run, there are no laws or directions to nature.
For example, organisms evolved out of the seas and evolved and evolved until some of them became us, humans. Now if the world were to suddenly be covered in water again, most of us, if not all of us, would die. But wouldn't you say a human is more advanced and more ordered than a fish? Obviously not (if the fish live and the humans die).

Therefore, fish are as ordered and evolved as humans. They just happened to evolve in a different manner. When organisms left the seas, they did not retain their marine abilities and develop new land abilities at the same time. They substituted one for the other. Nothing became more ordered, nothing became more complicated.

So if everything evolves harmoniously, then on what basis do you call this more ordered than that or that more ordered than this?

[Anonymous No.4621595]

>Business school fag
In name of science and internet law, you are pardoned by the high judges, despite the severity of your crimes.

[Anonymous No.4621614]

The quick and simple explanations are
1.) You have a very simplistic grasp on what thermodynamics says.
2.) We have a constant input of a very large amount of energy.

[Anonymous No.4621618]

When our grandchildren will wind up living in caves and hurling spears, that's still evolution. Because they adapt to a changing environment.

[Anonymous No.4621624]

One localised example that a prof in a first year chem class told us was this: The human body creates a lot of entropy but we are constantly pumping in out in the form of heat so keeping just a little order in our molecules is easy if we are causing so much disorder in the molecules surrounding us.

[Anonymous No.4621628]

>>4621035
>becoming .. more complicated
not necessarily

evolution acts over living organisms
all of which promote order
(until their dead, then their kids do it)

stick chairs in a cave
wait 1 year
shits falling apart

sticks critters in a cave
wait 1 year
theyre dead and disordered or alive and ordered

[Anonymous No.4621643]

>From my limited understanding, nature tends to move from order to disorder

You have to define order and disorder and be consistent with it. "Disorder" in the context of thermodynamics is basically the same as "uniformity". It really has very little to do with the human concept of order. Secondly, order arises spontaneously all the fucking time. Have you ever watched water freeze?

[Anonymous No.4621648]

>>4621643

As an addendum, consider planet and star formation. These processes produce massive amounts of entropy, but by human standards we would consider them to be creating less disorder. The same is true for life. Living things have metabolisms and are basically entropy machines, releasing heat into their environments at very high rates compared to nonliving things.

[Anonymous No.4621654]

The sun is POURING energy into our planet. That is why the second law of thermodynamics doesn't mean disorder should always increase on Earth - it's not a closed system.

If there were no sunlight, there would be no life.

[Anonymous No.4621666]

The 2nd law of thermodynamics is so abused in these ideas. You could say that it's a local law and there is no way to consider the 2nd law at the level of the universe in any meaningful way right now.

Also, the earth is not a closed system so the law doesn't apply to nature.

[Anonymous No.4621669]

>>4621156
Your physics teacher is painfully stupid and deserves a severe tongue lashing.

[Anonymous No.4621688]

>>4621669
That always sounds like oral sex to me.

[Anonymous No.4621707]

Let MC Hawking explain it to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bueZoYhUlg

[Anonymous No.4621716]

[Anonymous No.4621750]

>>4621050

>Has no idea what he's talking about
>'Joined' /sci/ 2 minutes ago
>Typical 4chan trash

[Anonymous No.4621754]

>>4621648
We can consider that order arises from a great expense in entropy, of which most fortunately is lost to the void.