/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.4398026]

I figure there's some medical knowledge in here, so let me ask you something.

There's a myth that in olden times some Ottoman troops didn't have the money to properly arm themselves, so they spend hours every day slapping the marble columns of some building to make their hands tougher. The result was the Ottoman Slap, a blow so powerful that it would put the indentation of a hand on somebodies helmet, and be able to kill a man with a single blow.

Is this possible? And could I train myself to be able to strike so powerfully by doing the same thing with trees?

[Anonymous No.4398035]

Sure. Practice makes perfect right. I know Shaolin monks do "Iron bone" training, which basically makes them not feel anything when they get a hit that might break someone else's bones.

[Anonymous No.4398032]

Yes this is possible, just like most things. You'll find many quite amazing things that the human body can do. They have documentaries about ridiculous feats as lifting cars in emergencies.

Muy Thai boxers commonly kick trees daily to strengthen their legs. This is done by calcifying the bone.

[Anonymous No.4398048]

I am monitoring this thread

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398058]

A little force applied correctly can kill a person. Repeated impacts strengthen bones. The human body can produce sufficient force and the hitting of the marble strengthens the bones so one doesn't break one's arm when slapping with all one's might. I know kickboxers kick hard things to strengthen their shins and they can sometimes kill people with a kick.

I'd believe it.

[Anonymous No.4398060]

Since your tasting for some of these, if I remember correctly its called Incredible Human Body. There is a part where a man who is about 180 I believe bench pressed twice the world record for bench pressing to save his life as a face of a mountain fell upon him.

[Anonymous No.4398091]

>>4398058

>Repeated impacts strengthen bones.

*facepalm*

There's a difference between impact directly to the bones VS impact training, such as running, which actually increases bone density.

[Anonymous No.4398101]

>>4398026

I got an awesome idea for OP! Punch yourself in the face everyday. After a couple of years, your face bones will be so strong that no one can knock you out! People will break their hands when they punch you in the face. You'll be the next Ali!

[Anonymous No.4398102]

I think is possible... kung fu fighters that learn the tiger style punch something solid (like wood) with his fingers. This cause some fractures that make the finger stronger when they heal.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398108]

>>4398091
Why would repeated impacts to the legs be different than repeated impacts to the arms?

[Anonymous No.4398123]

>>4398091
You have to consider the structure of bone itself. Repeatedly kicking a tree is fine to a certain limit BUT scientifically, bones are designed from the cellular level to handle pressure. There's a REASON why our major bones are LONG, to support our weight. Running and other impact training causes that pressure on the bones to increase, which in turn signals our body to increase bone density. Simply put, compression causes our bones to become stronger, NOT impacting them directly by kicking a tree like an idiot. That repeated kicking motion may ultimately build muscle so that the impact of the kick will be proportional to the speed at which the kick occurs.

Jesus fucking christ, study and apply some physics and biology.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398149]

>>4398123
>compression causes our bones to become stronger, NOT impacting them directly
What? Why would it matter where the pressure is applied? The body simply responds to the pressure. It responds by increasing bone density where the pressure was applied. How the bone is impacted would simply determine how the pressure is distributed across the bone. The pressure itself would not be different therefore the local response to that pressure would not be different.

[Anonymous No.4398165]

I think I've read somewhere that after a bone has been broken, the rebuilt bone is much harder than the old one. If that's true, could a (really dedicated or kind of masochist) guy breaks his bones alternatively to strengthen them?

[Anonymous No.4398176]

>>4398149

Okay. I'll help you imagine how pressure affects a bone. Imagine you have a wooden stick. Think about how differently pressure affects the wooden stick if you try to crush the stick between the palms of your hands from the top and the bottom. This is the kind of pressure that the body responds to more effectively because in a similar fashion, when you run, the bone is not only absorbing the pressure from the impact of your body landing as you place your foot down on the ground BUT also your own weight.

The other scenario is if you take the wooden stick and hit it against a tree as if you were using a baseball bat, the impact will only occur at a specific point, which in turn is more focused and damages that part if you do it long enough or hard enough. The body will respond in a certain way to certain kinds of stress. The human bone evolved to handle compression pressure, NOT actual impact pressure.

You're either a troll or you dunno much about biology.

[Anonymous No.4398185]

>>4398165

Depends on how it has been fractured, how it is repaired, etc. The problem with bone is that if its a complex fracture such that it's broken in half like a twig and rips through your skin from the inside and the bones don't mend properly, you will be crippled and it will not be able to handle stress as it would normally. You will need metal screws/plating to keep the bone from breaking from regular activities.

[Anonymous No.4398202]

>>4398185

It also depends on HOW it breaks. If it gets crushed....you're out of luck. If it breaks but its still holds itself in place, it might grow back stronger. If you're a girl, you're fucked.

[Anonymous No.4398211]

>>4398176
I take it this is why people do knuckle pushups, to increase their punching power? Good to know. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.4398232]

>>4398211

Uhhh...no.

Knuckle pushups place a lot of pressure at the wrists. Depending on how much pressure, you can either strengthen them or damage them. Pushups themselves, whether its regular or knuckle, strengthens your chest and upper arms, which helps your muscles be more anchored so that you can throw a faster punch, increasing damage. Bone density doesn't really affect how much damage you do to a person. Bones help BLOCK damage and attacks. Study how exercising core muscles makes your punches and kicks stronger.

[Anonymous No.4398274]

>niggas don't know about Wolff's law

[Anonymous No.4398348]

>>4398274

Well, someone had to break it down for them.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398559]

>>4398176
No.

The spoon could weather a greater force when applied in specific ways, but that doesn't change the fact that segments are still under pressure no matter how the force is applied. With running the impact force is distributed across the entire length of the tibia. When kicking with the shin the force is applied to specific parts of the tibia instead of the entire tibia. The bone will still respond to the force by increasing bone density. Any one portion of the tibia that is put under pressure will respond to that pressure by increasing bone density no matter if the WHOLE tibia undergoes the same pressure or not.

[Anonymous No.4398576]

Bones are piezoelectric:
when under pressure they suck calcium and other mineral ions from the blood. This makes them denser and stronger.
There is an old southern Chinese training technique (maybe it's a myth) : you wrap the trunk of a tree in rope and then you punch it until it falls down. You spend the first few years killing the tree and from then on it's all downhill.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398597]

>>4398576
>Bones are piezoelectric
You just blew my mind.

[Anonymous No.4398633]

>>4398559

mfw you don't realize that bone has high compressive resistance but is weak against shear/torsional stress. Kicking a tree actually causes more damage to the bone than running because you are not COMPRESSING bone, you are actually causing an impact at a specific point on the bone instead of letting the pressure be spread out throughout the bone. Oh well, I tried but you failed to understand.

[Anonymous No.4398646]

>>4398032
>kicking trees.
I do muay thai and almost the first thing my kru ever said to me was "don't kick trees or signposts, you'll probably just break your leg".

[Anonymous No.4398652]

>>4398576
>>4398597
Technically, its not the bone material itself. Its actually the collagen inside the bone that allows for the piezoelectric effect.

[Anonymous No.4398655]

>>4398646

all these people believe you b/c you do muay thai and yet they argue with me despite the fact that I gave them a legit explanation based on biology.

*Facepalm*

[Anonymous No.4398662]

>>4398655
Broscience always trumps actual science so long as the person delivering it is sufficiently muscular.

[Anonymous No.4398663]

Iron Palm is about micro fractures. You don't "break" the bone, just slightly crack it. As the cracks knit back together, it grows more densely. It's kind of the opposite of osteoporosis.

>>4398060
This is a bunch of crap.

[Anonymous No.4398667]

>>4398633

Med school here

Bone actually has a high amount of torsional strength due to osteoid and various glycoproteins woven into the calcium phosphate (hydroxyapatite) matrix.

But, it's whatever you want to believe, I guess.

[Anonymous No.4398673]

>>4398662
Oh well. This just proves again that humans are illogical. Some..more illogical than others.

[Anonymous No.4398681]

>>4398667

My main point was that bone is most resistant to compressive stress in comparison to torsional/shear stress since I wanted to make the argument that you do not increase by bone density through direct impacts against objects but through impact training exercises.

[Anonymous No.4398693]

>>4398667

And to answer OPs question: this may have possible because the physical slapping of solid objects with the palm of the hand could have led to micro injuries to the dermal and hypodermic layers of the skin. This would have led to mass fibrosis to the anterior parts of their hands, as well as loss of nerve function, making them basically blunt force objects. In my opinion, this would have had LITTLE to do with bones.

[Anonymous No.4398701]

>>4398681

Yes this is correct. Sorry, I must have glossed over that.

I agree, which led me to the "conclusion" I just put above.

[Anonymous No.4398706]

The dumbest thing about this entire thread is that too many people don't realize that bone density doesn't make an attack stronger. It is the speed of the attack that determines the force of the attack. Bone density may help reduce the damage done when striking a hard object/surface but speed/technique are what truly determine the damage the attack does. I'm done with this thread. /sci/, I am disappoint.

[Anonymous No.4398716]

>>4398701
Thank you! A muay thai user and a med student agree with me!
*Gladiator pose* Are you not entertained?! Is this not why you are here?!

Being a scientist who has dumb friends, I actually enjoy being on /sci/.

[Anonymous No.4398726]

>>4398706
F=ma, density would have an effect.

[Anonymous No.4398732]

OP, you should realise that poor countries like Turkey like to make up bullshit about their past to try and make up for their crappy present day standing in the world.

[Anonymous No.4398745]

>>4398726
A wise guy huh?

Impulse = F(delta t) = m(delta v)

Honestly, bone density doesn't change so much that it becomes twice or three times as heavy. So, change in mass of your arm bones or leg bones when throwing a punch or kick is negligible, which leaves the change in speed.

Go back to high school and relearn physics and biology.

[Anonymous No.4398748]

>>4398745

To add to this, if you don't clearly understand, the speed of an attack is mainly determined by your muscles/technique.

[Anonymous No.4398761]

>>4398202
>If you're a girl, you're fucked.
Is this a legitimate thing? Testosterone helps bones grow or something?

[Anonymous No.4398768]

Depends on the age of the girl but generally, girls have lower bone density due to estrogen. They're encouraged to take calcium supplements.

[Anonymous No.4398772]

>>4398768

Crap. I should explain further.

Lack of estrogen in older women leads to lower bone density.
Much clearer.

[Anonymous No.4398787]

>>4398772

Med school fag again here,

This is really only partially true.

Lack of estrogen in older women leads to earlier onset of osteoporosis, defined by homeostatic imbalances of osteoblasts, osteoclasts, yadayada.

The MAIN reason girls have less bone density than boys is simply because they are lighter (on average). Stress (weight) on bones directly effects bone remodeling, which leads to higher density. Less stress equals less density, and vice versa.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398833]

>>4398633
For the love of reason, take a course on statics.

The fact that the the pressure is localized doesn't make it a different kind of pressure. The bone segment doesn't give a damn that the rest of the tibia isn't under the same pressure. It responds the same way nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.4398844]

>>4398032
what they don't show is the aftermath when muscles are severely torn, bones are fractured, and joints are screwed into oblivion--the human body is entirely capable of such things, but there's a reason it doesn't do them regularly

[medfag No.4398851]

>>4398633
>>4398123
>>4398176

Another medical student here (props to my other medibro). MS3 here, you?

Okay these three posts are wrong. Just... I'm not going to fucking beat around the bush. They are wrong.

You DO, in fact, increase bone density through repeated striking of the bone. The reason this happens is explained through cortical remodeling as described by Wolff's Law. Micro-fractures in the bone stimulate osteoblast-mediated bone remodeling and regrowth.

Here's a journal entry if your school has or can give you access: On the Theory of Fracture Healing, Clin Orthop Rel Res. 2010 Apr;468(4):1052-1055

This is partially why professional "brick breakers" can train themselves to break denser and harder materials (of course there are other factors, such as the first brick helps to break the second helps to break the third, and the fact that if the force is enough to BREAK the brick it doesn't shatter their bones).

However, if you measure the mineral density the Z-score for Muy Thai practitioners and these professional breaking artists is off the charts.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4398858]

>>4398851
>Micro-fractures in the bone stimulate osteoblast-mediated bone remodeling and regrowth.
So bones aren't piezoelectric?

[Anonymous No.4398891]

>>4398576
This literally makes me hard.

[medfag No.4398894]

>>4398858
I'm not sure why these two concepts are mutually exclusive

[Anonymous No.4399387]

>>4398101
I'm pretty sure this happens to boxers.

[Anonymous No.4399474]

>>4398851
>>4398858
>>4398891
>>4398894
>>4399387

After a good 7 hours of sleep, I come back to find this. /sci/, I am truly disappoint. I'm just going to lurk moar from this point and laugh at your failures.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.4399478]

>>4399474
Y u boneless jelly?

[Anonymous No.4399505]

>>4399478
I knew you had absolutely no idea about biology AND that you were just an annoying troll. If you had even an inkling of knowledge about bone and how it constantly reshapes itself, you wouldn't have asked this dumb question.
>>4398858

Well, you can go back to popping adderall and being a troll. I have realized that its not worth sharing my knowledge on /sci/.