/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.4390896]

How does /sci/ feel about the teaching profession? Especially its future, and the world of possibilities opened to it by computers and other technology?

[Anonymous No.4390899]

Teaching Professing = God Tier

[Anonymous No.4390906]

Wolfram has this whole movement centered around computer-based learning, the idea of it being that you only understand a given concept (e.g. a mathematical one, or an algorithm like long division) if you can program it.

I can't get over the fact that Steven Wolfram is a bit cultish on the whole computers-rule-all-thinking thing, but still relevant to the thread.

[Anonymous No.4390921]

Intelligent Design must be taught!

[Anonymous No.4390925]

>>4390906

(followup post) I'm also waiting for the world in which any given high school graduate/receiver of a GED is capable of most basic computer tasks used in the modern workforce (E.g. Excel, that shit is way too easy to have to wait until some bullshit "Comp Sci for Business" course at uni) as well as, for the more motivated/higher math achievers, some discrete math and/or linear algebra.

I honestly hope we're not that far from that being a reality.

[Anonymous No.4390936]

I know this is /sci/, but could anyone explain to me the political hatred of the public school systems? I see Rick Santorum shitting on "factory" schools, and Ron Paul saying he'd trash the Dept. of Education instantly. Is it more nuanced than just hating the public schools? (I hope it is, cause I went through the public school system and had a few teachers who worked their asses off to make me understand the material, which certainly did a lot of good for me)

[Anonymous No.4390952]

Teaching is one of those things that you just feel bad for people who are going into it. My friend has always wanted to be a teacher, and he's ridiculously smart. he wants to teach science, he majored in chemistry, I swear he could do anything he wanted with it like grad school or research or whatever. I know that he's gonna like teaching, but he's just gonna be poor and it sucks 'cause I'm only one year out of undergrad (he's four years out) and I'm already set to make at least his salary, just starting.

[Anonymous No.4390963]

>>4390936

Statistics, m'lad.

I don't know about the candidates' stances on public education in particular, but the overwhelming amount of motions to close down scores of public schools came up because their graduation rates were in the absolute shitter with their test scores and everything else.

If you haven't seen Waiting for Superman, you should. I don't agree with a fair chunk of it, but it's a good exposition of the charter school craze in America today (Amerifag here)

[Anonymous No.4390968]

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/stephen_wolfram_computing_a_theory_of_everything.html

>>4390906
Is this what you were referring to. This is a great way for learning maths and algorithmic processes. It's funny, in the TED talk, he's super humble and "awww shucks"
But if you read the introduction to his book, he's all "I have had the incredible burden of discovering the fundamental structure of the Universe."

[Anonymous No.4390974]

>>4390925
my school had a multivariable calc class, but it was total bullshit & the teacher only did it because she got paid extra. when I got to calc 3 as a freshman engineer, my face melted because I didn't learn shit in high school. it would have been awesome to actually know some of that shit before college so I could beast in calc 3 without even thinking.

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4390979]

>>4390936
IT is related to the general hatred of bureaucracy. People feel that to much overview hurts efficiency. The red tape man, the red tape.

In other words, standardized testing is disliked. Sadly the problem isn't the testing itself, but that the teachers do not know how to teach their students how to succeed.

[Anonymous No.4390987]

>>4390968
yeah - tbh I'm way more scared of Wolfram technologies taking over the world than I am with Google. This new WAPlus or WAPro or whatever the fuck it is can bite me, I'm not giving him my information.

That said, I remember when I first heard about Scratch (see here: http://scratch.mit.edu/ teaches little kids about programming and shit) I was like "Why in the hell didn't I get to learn this!?!?!" Computers are so important, we should really have kids learning how to program in high school.

Captcha: byaxchar Educ.

[Anonymous No.4390988]

>>4390936\
In order to destroy your one true enemy, you must destroy its place to exist.
http://abstrusegoose.com/205

People hate the Public School System because it gives young people close to the bottom of the social structure a chance to succeed. Elitists like Paul and Frothy plan to take money from Public Schools, and put it into private schools through "Private Public Partnerships" to keep the majority of Americans subservient.

[Anonymous No.4390997]

>>4390988
That...that is the most beautiful comic I've ever seen.

[Anonymous No.4391000]

Teaching is not a science.

[Anonymous No.4391006]

The teaching profession is totally corrupted by status plays. Information technology should have vastly increased the efficiency of instruction, which ONLY means that we'd kick a lot of teachers out of the profession, OR their cost would have plummeted. That's what fucking EFFICIENCY means.

And yet the costs of instruction have only climbed. That's due to collusion, and unions, and governments providing for teachers and not students.

Therefore the profession is corrupted. Eventually the absurdity of the system will collapse their status games and we will taste their sweet tears in time. Oh yes we will.

[Anonymous No.4391011]

>>4390988
People hate the public school system because it is a black hole for taxpayer money that has produced no real improvement in student performance in 40 years. At the same time the emphasis for public education is to get failing students up to marginal. This is accomplished at the expense of exceptional students. Ultimately it is a misguided attempt to 'level the playing field' academically by handicapping those most likely to succeed.

It's getting a little Harrison Bergeron up in this bitch.

[Anonymous No.4391012]

>>4391006
It's positions like this that make me think that we really need to strongly consider the value-added method of examining education and educators.

If you're not drastically increasing the success rates of students by some metric, you really shouldn't be in the profession. There are so many opportunities being lost this way (old teachers with tenure who give zero fucks, administration that doesn't see the value of new technology or even new talent, etc.).

It's fucking hard to put a metric on education, but somebody's gotta do it.

[Anonymous No.4391022]

>>4391000

http://www.edlabs.harvard.edu/

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4391023]

>>4391000
Then why am I getting a bachellors of science in education?

[Anonymous No.4391024]

>>4391006
That is true. There are crabby teachers who won't leave, and make it ridiculously hard for new ones to come in, but I don't think that's the root of the problem. The root is that our government(Amerifag here) doesn't give a shit about most of its people. Also Fuck Citizens United v. FEC!

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4391033]

Ever notice how people rate teachers based on how long they have taught?

When I rule the American education system, all teacher will be required to re certify every 5 years.

[Anonymous No.4391041]

>Teaching
>a hard science

Pick one

[Anonymous No.4391047]

I respect some HS teachers because they seem like they already had there career and just want to chill teaching easy shit to HS kids. I actually find that appealing, one day after I've had a successful career, I'll just go start teaching HS math or chemistry or something.

I don't know why I have this desire.

[Anonymous No.4391051]

Since we're all Amerifags here apparently, I'll tell you what REALLY scares me. What REALLY scares me is that public education has made it its neurotic obsession to fire off as many kids to college as humanly possible with exactly 0 fucks given how/what they do there. Say little Bobby gets funneled through the Joe-Schmoville public schools, does well enough to get into Whogivesafuck State U, majors in Bullshit Studies with a minor in philosophy, and then ends up so jobless after four years it actually causes me physical pain (and, more likely than not, he's got some absolute BITCHES of student loans that need to be paid off).

I've been told this has been referred to as the McCollege problem, and I totally agree that it's a serious one. But what teachers can do about this, I just don't know...besides inspiring kids to go into sci/tech/employable fields (individual inspiration, sadly, is random and unscalable) idk what there is to do, since teachers are so rarely involved with planning the curriculum.

Also holy shit, captcha again is Educ. Capsho. The universe is talking to me.

[Anonymous No.4391056]

The driving force for maintaining the status quo for public education is teachers unions. When given a choice parents nearly always choose to send their child to a charter school or utilize a private school voucher. Vouchers actually save the government money so it would be cheaper for local governments to just close schools and hand parents private school tuition checks. The only group that consistently fights vouchers and charters is teachers unions. This is because private schools and most charter schools do not have a work force that is represented by a teachers union. This means they pay no union dues. If competition drove governments to downsize public education (and send the money into charters/private) then unions would see their membership rolls shrink and their membership dues along with it. Currently unions spend large amounts of money on campaigns in the form of direct contributions, soft money, and PACs all with the goal of preventing alternatives to public education from becoming viable.

[Anonymous No.4391061]

>>4391056
Sources please? This is a very interesting issue to me, and I'd like to get better versed in the literature.

[Anonymous No.4391064]

>>4391024
what is your problem with the CU v. FEC ruling?

[Anonymous No.4391070]

>the teaching profession
Teaching can be a good job (depending almost entirely upon the school administration), but it sucks as a "profession", because of no possiblity of advancement except into the administration, which sucks even worse as a profession.

[Anonymous No.4391080]

>>4391070
Yeah, I've always found this to be kind of a wonky way to think about teaching. 'Cause if you're a teacher, your advancement options are 1. do bullshit administrative work that has nothing to do with teaching at all or 2. still teach, just with a raise.

In my dream world, I want to teach all kinds of math at the high school level, and start a coding club after school like the one I had in high school. That shit changed me and my friends' lives.

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4391091]

>>4391061
I don't know about the union conspiracy, but the united states spends more money per students than any other country in the world.

And they spend more money per student, than many universities charge for tuition.

[Anonymous No.4391098]

>>4391091

hahaha Bro its not a consiparacy. The teachers union and the democratic party dont even try to hide that they are corrupt fuck buddies.

[Anonymous No.4391099]

>>4391091
>I don't know about the union conspiracy
... then do everyone (including yourself) a favour and STFU

[Anonymous No.4391104]

>>4391061
unionfacts.com is a good source for funding information. Look up the NEA and AFT

The participation rate statement is more or less anecdotal, but whenever I read a news article on such programs they inevitably report a waiting list.

The cost/benefit analysis I picked up from an article on the D.C. school system which just ended their voucher system. Students that were enrolled in it had higher test scores and graduation rates for about 60% of the cost to the state.

Sorry I can't be more specific. I read those articles weeks or months ago. Real Clear Politics will often have good 'news' and editorials on the subject.

[Anonymous No.4391113]

>>4390952
> I know that he's gonna like teaching, but he's just gonna be poor

Why would be be "poor"? Teachers tend to make at least the area median household income. Are you saying that most people are "poor"?

[Anonymous No.4391117]

>>4391104
(Disclaimer: I don't know shit about charter schools. Ergo, my questions may be stupid or naive)

From what little I understand of the charter/private school voucher dealie, not every kid is guaranteed a place. Is that true now? If so, do you think a massive overhaul of the public school system as we know it would generate enough capital and demand to accommodate every child in a charter/private school environment?

Also, I imagine that it's harder to get a job in said private/charter schools due to them making more bank?

[Anonymous No.4391120]

>>4391098
It's not just Democrats. The NEA contributes about 25% of their political donations to Republicans. The AFT is about 100% D though. Still I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking only one party is responsible.

That said, I would guess that most of the donations to Republicans comes in areas where Jesus himself wouldn't get elected if he ran as a Democrat.

[Anonymous No.4391123]

>>4391113

I live in Kentucky. I know for sure that teachers make pretty shit wages here, because he's teaching now and I know him well enough to have a pretty good idea of his financial situation.

[Anonymous No.4391124]

Just from my experience with education majors I'd say we are in serious trouble. The standards are far far too low

[Anonymous No.4391131]

>>4391124
"Education should be like any other serious profession: only after serious professional schooling and experience should a teacher be hired to work in a classroom, and even then, they should be constantly at the edge of their field, learning all they can to improve their craft." -my Capstone advisor

When I hear all this shit about standards re: what students have to learn, I just think that we've created one more crutch for bad teachers and missed one more opportunity to standardize TEACHING, not what's taught.

[Anonymous No.4391135]

>>4390936
> Is it more nuanced than just hating the public schools?

The fact in America is that Whites and other people of means flee public school systems, which devolve into holding pens for Blacks and Hispanics before they are shoveled into the prisons via the legal system. Whites and other people of means (of ALL races!) hate the public schools so much that they either run up huge commuting and mortgage costs, or they tolerate paying for private schools while also being hit for paying for the public schools (which they don't use) in their property taxes. If you're already paying for a saltine cracker, but choose instead to pay additionally for a Ritz cracker, then you really hate saltines.

The facts are clear: Statistics say that the public schools in the USA suck wad. Their scores are dismal, and for those scores they run up the largest costs. And people flee them when they get the chance, even running up associated costs (commute, mortgage, private tuition) to do so. That's reality talking to you.

This is all well researched, well publicized, and well understood... at least by those who CAN understand. But since you came from a public-school system, you're in ideological denial. That's what people hate, guy! They hate that the public schools produce PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4391140]

>>4391123
>35k starting with benefits
>shit wages

there are over 100000000 americans who wish they made that.

[Anonymous No.4391149]

>>4391117
Voucher programs are space limited because they usually carry the title 'pilot program' so they have very limited funding. They are done this way to avoid all out war with unions. They are also kept small because of fears of legal challenges. There is a concern that if a parent uses the voucher to sent a child to a parochial school it would present a first amendment conflict as a tacit endorsement of a religion.

Charter schools suffer from a more classic supply-demand problem. If the school only has 4000 desks then only the first 4000 students get to attend. It is only really a problem when charter schools are superior to traditional public schools (as is usually the case). The real shame is the difficulty faced in increasing the supply of charter school positions for students.

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4391150]

>>4391131
Most schools do not even offer education programs. They just have take one or two teaching electives, and then help you take state certifications.

[Anonymous No.4391152]

>>4390925
ITs just most of the damned people in the US don't give a shit about education or intelligence for that matter.

Seriously it was either the niggers disrupting class or it was the rednecks. Sometimes the spics and gooks but not too much.
The worst thing about it was that a bunch of these kids who didn't give a damn about school were going to get secondary education, and they suck at all subjects too.

[Anonymous No.4391155]

>>4391140
my apologies if I've misunderstood from his experience alone, but it might have something to do with the fact that he's working for a high-need school or something. all I know is, even with his and his fiancé's combined incomes, they're having a rough time with money.

35k + benefits doesn't sound bad right out the gate, but I can't believe he makes that much.

[Anonymous No.4391163]

>>4391140
Thats the pay you get after a 20 year tenure in FL. And they wonder why were 48th in the nation.

[Anonymous No.4391176]

>>4391150
This makes me rage. My university only has an education minor, but it's beautifully interdisciplinary; for instance, I'm majoring in Math but I get to take courses like Mathematics Learning Environments and Development of Knowledge and Reasoning in the Science Curriculum, with applications to a real classroom. I'm hugely excited to get involved in the field as a teacher, but I really don't want to be a passive teacher with no consciousness of what's going on at a national level.

[Anonymous No.4391180]

The problem with teacher pay is that pay can't be tied to performance. Good teachers are not rewarded because pay is based on seniority as per most CBA's. Teachers receive the same pay regardless of student performance. This disincentiveizes effort on the part of educators. Ultimately it makes good teachers worse and bad teachers worthless. And none of them can get fired for any of it. That is why public schools have gradually transformed into glorified daycare.

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4391181]

>>4391155
I went to education.ky.gov and assumed he had a bachelors. Very surprised to learn that kentucky allows teachers without degrees.

[Anonymous No.4391183]

>>4391113
>most people are "poor"?
durr

[Anonymous No.4391194]

>>4391181
Lots of states do

[Anonymous No.4391208]

>>4391183
So there's no middle class in the USA? Link?

Oh wait, you're a moron. Prolly from a public school.

[Anonymous No.4391223]

>>4391012
> It's fucking hard to put a metric on education, but somebody's gotta do it.

It is? It's hard to teach, then issue tests, then grade or score them, then compare these scores to the rest of the system?

What's "hard" instead is the resistance of Americans to accept that Blacks score less than Whites. Period. Ironically, people continue to move and commute specifically to avoid public schools and their Black student bodies... since they know about the truth, deep inside themselves.

[Anonymous No.4391226]

To me, teachers seem like the job that you pick if you can't make it in the real world.

[Anonymous No.4391244]

>>4391123
> I live in Kentucky. I know for sure that teachers make pretty shit wages here

Really? Hey that's OK, I can check that:

1. What's your city or town? I can check the median household income for that via the U.S. Census.

2. What's the guy's salary? Remember, school teachers only work 9 months out of the year, and get at least 3 more weeks off a year in addition, for school break periods.

Give me this basic information so I can check your facts.

{crickets}

[Anonymous No.4391347]

>>4391208
>most people are "poor"
>no middle class
Lrn2sequitur, faggot

[Anonymous No.4391352]

>>4391244
>I can check that
>I can check your facts
do it, faggot

[Anonymous No.4391458]

>>4391352

As I implied: {crickets}

These ass-faggots know full well that teachers are not poorly paid on average. So when challenged when they claim they are, they become silent.

In my city, teachers START at the median household income. Yes, a single person is paid at the level of an entire median household. And yet they constantly try to fool the public into believing they are poorly paid.

Fuck unions and fuck their demented workforce. Teachers get 3 months off each year, and a further 3 more weeks off due to school breaks. So the comparison to median income should be made to a discount for work periods of the same ~8/12 of the year. When you take that into account, teachers become a very well paid profession.

Who says so? MATH SAYS SO.

[Anonymous No.4391476]

>>4391458
>MATH SAYS SO
Did you know that there are places in the world that exist outside of the tiny area that you live in?
Do you seriously think that 55k/year, taxed down to 35k/year, is enough for a household, let alone one person?

[Anonymous No.4391478]

>>4391476
And that's not how much they make to start with either.

[Anonymous No.4391479]

>>439145

What's the median on wage earners per household?

[Anonymous No.4391526]

>>4391476
> Do you seriously think that 55k/year, taxed down to 35k/year, is enough for a household, let alone one person?

You have automatically failed to understand STATISTICS and there's no need to ever respond to your stupidity again.

To others reading this: Around here, 55K is over twice the annual individual median income, and is 50% larger than the annual household median income. Our economy here is very similar to the Kentucky fucker, who can't accept that. He like many others, believes that you are either rich, or poor. There's no middle class in his viewpoint, because there's no limit to his spending desires. When you can never be satisfied with anything you have, you must purchase more, which also doesn't satisfy you, which means that no level of income suffices.

In other words, what's being handled here now is a mental illness. Most teachers in public schools (earning at such high levels of the area's income) have the same mental illness.

[Anonymous No.4391530]

>>4391526
>55k is over twice the annual individual median income
Are you saying that almost everyone in your nation lives in abject poverty? 55k is nothing in America, and you don't even see some of that. You end up with more like 35-40k.

[Anonymous No.4391531]

35k a year is way more than enough to sustain a person, you materialist fuck

[Anonymous No.4391538]

>>4391531
This, seriously. That said, it would suck to make 35K your entire career and raise kids, etc, but one person in their 20s can live comfortably off of less than 20K

[Anonymous No.4391544]

>>4391531
Your point being? You'll live in a horrible apartment without many furnishings.
>>4391538
>but one person in their 20s can live comfortably off of less than 20k
Have you ever been the the United States? Do you know anything about the United States? It is actually IMPOSSIBLE for someone to pay for the expenses that come with a wife and multiple children off of 35k/yr in the US.
>35k a year is way more tahn enough to sustain a person
If you have zero aspirations in life and just do your job and do nothing over breaks and weekends, then this might be feasible.

[Anonymous No.4391546]

>>4391530
> Are you saying that almost everyone in your nation lives in abject poverty? 55k is nothing in America, and you don't even see some of that. You end up with more like 35-40k.

Are you the same fucker? I already said that I was done with your fucking stupidity. Begone with you.

To all others: The national median household income for 2009 was about $50K. It's been dropping slowly since the Great Depression Two started in 2008. It's probably $49K now; maybe $48K.

So $55K is solidly above the national median household income. That means half of the households in the nation don't command the same purchasing power as that SINGLE TEACHER in the area in question. And that's for a mere 8 months of work!

By definition, supported by MATH AND STATISTICS themselves, that single teacher IS doing well. If said single teacher isn't doing well -- and let's remember that then it's fucking KENTUCKY that we're talking about, not LA, Miami or NYC -- then it's because that single teacher has chosen to load up with big bills and big debts. In other words, he or she is a fucking greedy and consumptive moron. A nigger, really.

Like the previous poster said, there's a problem here of somebody being a 'materialist fuck'.

[Anonymous No.4391552]

>>4391544
> Do you know anything about the United States?

Do you? Obviously not.

> It is actually IMPOSSIBLE for someone to pay for the expenses that come with a wife and multiple children off of 35k/yr in the US.

Half of the households in the United States run on less than $50K per year. Probably 1/3rd do it on $35K.

As far as individual incomes go, you're totally wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

$35K places you at the 61% level, meaning over 60% of the people in the United States make less than you do. So again, you're basically claiming by inference that the hypermajority of people are "poor". That makes you an overspending, entitled, delusional ASSHOLE, for whom basic economic facts are an impossible mystery.

[Anonymous No.4391554]

>>4391544

Oh shit son, I can't afford a temperature-controlled waterbed placed next to my HD projection TV while I eat caviar for breakfast and have a personal maid give me an expensive haircut while simultaneously jerking me off before I leave for work in my Porsche. How will I SURVIVE?!

[Anonymous No.4391556]

>>4391554
I'm convinced that you're either a troll or a wealthy kid still living wih his parents.

[Anonymous No.4391558]

>>4391544

> If you have zero aspirations in life and just do your job and do nothing over breaks and weekends, then this might be feasible.

So people who aren't out after making much of money have no aspirations? I'd never think I'd hear it on a science board.

At least one Amerifats confirmed for full retard.

[Anonymous No.4391560]

>>4391556

I think you're arguing with the wrong person. You need to read better.

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4392273]

I made 27500 last year. Was very excited to see I made more than 50% of single earners.
35k would be a big step up.

Though I plan to continue for a doctorate, so will earn even more eventually

[Anonymous No.4392602]

OP here. I'm curious about whether or not there'll ever be a place in the system (whether it's public schools, charter schools, or whatever) for higher-level math and science teachers in high schools - I'm very interested in education, but don't want a PhD in it for theorizing all day and writing invective without helping to solve the problem somehow. I want to actually teach, and teach kids about how they too can get to college and learn something worthwhile and do something that'll make them proud contributors to society (I was a Math major with some pure math research and even a business internship under my belt before doing much with education - ergo, I feel like I at least have some idea about what kind of preparation it would take to get kids reading for the worlds of technical work or academia).

Granted, I can gladly do that last part with the math/science curriculum as it stands, but I can't help but think we could be teaching kids a lot more math than we are.

[Anonymous No.4392623]

>>4392602
let me guess. you are white, and went to a nice school with lots of APs and good academics in a state like Massachusetts or California.

See, your idea isn't bad, but the principal problems in education aren't in MA or CA. they're in Mississippi and fuckall where you can graduate high school without knowing shit at all, and most don't even graduate.

[Anonymous No.4392687]

>>4392602

I am a teacher, and young people like you disappoint me. You see teaching as this Messianic, I-am-God-you-are-inferior exchange between the nearned teacher and the stupid, underprivileged learner. You don't give kids, even kids in severely underprivileged areas, enough credit. This attitude is one of the many reasons I dislike Teach for America.

Honestly, the way to fix teaching is the business method: gather data and analyze it to see what it tells you. Is a teacher doing a bad job according to test metrics? Boot them or don't pay them as much. Are they doing exceptionally well and taking on responsibilities outside of the classroom? Raise.

Unfortunately, as an astute poster above mentioned, unions complicate this problem hugely. Why? Because frankly, the least apt teachers have a tendency to go far in the bureaucracy of the unions (this should be qualified: I'm speaking from personal experience, but I have yet to meet a union negotiator who was also skilled at, you know, actually teaching). I believe in protection for teachers as intended in the ideals of the unions, but I most certainly do not believe that with union structure should come an irrational cowardice to be measured by our abilities. It's just as sick as any of the worse scandals on Wall Street: if those responsible don't take responsibility, then what exactly are we to do?

[Anonymous No.4392911]

I for one think that teachers don't get paid enough. I mean you go all the way through master's and many to PhD, yet you make 30k at best. Take off 20% for taxes etc. Yes you will make more than xx% of people, BUT do you really want to compare yourself to walmart employees?

[pascal !n5Z3VuZapw No.4393125]

>>4392911
Kentucky ia 52k starting for doctorate

[Anonymous No.4393182]

>>4392687
> if those responsible don't take responsibility, then what exactly are we to do?

Simple: We privatize and let the union-dominated public schools die in the churning sea of market forces.

It's already happening.

[Anonymous No.4393206]

>>4392602
Don't go into teaching.
Most children are extremely ungrateful and do not give a shit about anything you have to tell them.
The ones who do care will be those who are ostracized.
Don't fall into the trap.

[Anonymous No.4393523]

>>4393206
that poster here - who gives a shit if they're grateful? All my best teachers, I hated them when I had them - only now looking back can I understand what they did for me.