/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.4252976]

I remember having a conversation in high school with one of my friends who had over 300+ service hours coaching tennis.
One day I asked him, "So do you actually enjoy coaching tennis?"
He says, "Of course."
I ask, "Do you coach tennis because you are actually interested teaching tennis?"
He hesitates. "Yes. It's fun."
I decided to challenge him. "If you do something for the sake of doing that thing, getting recognition for it shouldn't matter to you. So, if you actually enjoy teaching tennis, don't turn in your service hours. The satisfaction of teaching tennis should be enough."
He says, "But service hours are like an added bonus. It's fun and I look good for colleges."
I say, "But it isn't that simple. You have to get papers signed, and write a little paragraph. In other words, you have to actively seek out recognition for it. It's not like you do something and instantly colleges see it without you having to do some work. Did you know Richard Feynman declined a Nobel prize? He said he didn't need to be recognized for his discovery, because finding the discovery was satisfying enough. So, if you actually teach tennis because it interests you, why do you need to turn in service hours?"

1/3

[Anonymous No.4252977]

This was when I first began to realize how broken education is. Everything we did in high school (joining clubs, working for grades, doing sports, generally conforming to a college's definition of "well-rounded") was all a lie because we didn't teach tennis because we genuinely were interested in it, but because we wanted to uphold some type of false identity to present to colleges. Granted, there are people who actually do math competitions, science fairs, sports, leadership, student body, etc. because they are actually interested in those subjects, but there are probably substantially fewer people like that. Most people (from what I've seen) do these things because they want to look good for colleges, and would give that subject up without hesitation if colleges didn't see it on their portfolio. So their motivation for joining that club, or working for an A in English, isn't because they're interested in that topic, but because they want to look good for colleges. Why do we want to go to good colleges in the first place? Because we are force-fed the idea that if we didn't get into a good college, we wouldn't be able to find a job and have shitty lives. And to some extent, this is true.

2/3

[Anonymous No.4252980]

Today I'm in college and I find myself still doing the same stupid shit to get into a good grad school. I do extra-curriculars (clubs, ST, etc.) to look good for the grad school I'm applying to. But I wouldn't do any of that shit if I didn't get recognition for it. I'm basically doing exactly what my high school buddy was doing with tennis. My most disturbing realization is that colleges make students work for ostentation, and not for satisfaction. But college isn't the only institution that employs this practice. As soon as I get a job, I will probably have to do the same thing to move up the corporate ladder and get promotions or higher paying positions. So modern industry reflects modern culture in that both are based on appearances. Now whenever I study for an exam for eight hours or go to a club meeting, I feel like a piece of shit because I know I wouldn't do any of that shit if it didn't go in my portfolio, if I didn't get recognition for doing this shit. How the fuck do people function after realizing this? That 90% of the shit we do is for ostentation? That if I don't do things for recognition, I can't be a functioning member of society?

3/3

[Anonymous No.4252987]

deal with it

[Anonymous No.4252988]

>>4252987
no

[Anonymous No.4252997]

So does anybody have anything to say

I know it's a wall of text but still come on guys

[Anonymous No.4252998]

>>4252977
>Most people (from what I've seen) do these things because they want to look good for colleges, and would give that subject up without hesitation if colleges didn't see it on their portfolio.

None of my friends are like that. You have shit friends if they don't do what they're genuinely interested in.

[Anonymous No.4253003]

>>4252998
My high school was highly "competitive" so I don't expect everybody to relate to that.

[Anonymous No.4253006]

So why are you telling us this instead of keeping it to yourself.

[Anonymous No.4253008]

>>4253006
I'm curious how other people deal with it. My friends are retarded so they don't have anything to share when I approach them about the subject.

[Anonymous No.4253013]

>>4253008
>My friends are retarded
Way to be a dick, faggot. If they're retarded why are they your friends?

[Anonymous No.4253016]

>>4252976
>Feynman declined the nobel prize.

Except he didn't. He wanted to, but he ultimately decided that declining would raise even more unwanted attention.

[Anonymous No.4253017]

In theory, they should just be things you would do anyway, and so you appear to be active outside of pure academics. It doesn't work that way, but usually you will pick things you are interested in to get that credit. Letting someone know you did it, and therefore have interests, is beneficial to you. Consider also that people that are not well rounded are forced to do things that round them out, and therefore become better candidates. You do gain something other than credit from clubs ect. other than ostentation. It is like saying college is for a little slip of paper that gets you a job. On the surface it is true, but the reason for that slip is to show what has been gained. Marking that you teach tennis shows that you branched out into something, either familiar or alien.
At a job it is different, getting promotions works on going above the requirements of the position and gaining favor. A person who does the bare minimum of their current position can't necessarily be expected to fit a position with more responsibility, while a person doing more than their job might. Ostentation means showing off, but showing off what? That you grew as a person, helped the company, did favors for higher ups, were especially useful or talented.

[Anonymous No.4253046]

>>4253016
My bad. The point still stands though.

>>4253017
I'm not denying the fact that you learn and gain experiences when you do those things. But the problem is that the initial motivation for joining a club or working hard in college is to get recognition, not because you are interested in that department. You wouldn't have even considered joining speech and debate if you weren't recognized for it in your portfolio. This isn't something I mentioned in my first posts, but the effect of such a mind set is that (I think) it decreases students' motivations for doing things that aren't for ostentation. One memory that comes to mind is in high school (I was an avid reader), and I was reading The Invisible Man in class. My friend came up to me and said, "What is that for?" I said, "Huh?" He says "What class is that book for?" It didn't occur to him that I was reading the book because I wanted to fucking read the book. Again, I don't expect everybody to relate to this experience, because the high school I went to was especially competitive. But I think that experience shows just what exactly I was trying to explain in my initial post. Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.4253049]

>>4253046
Let me clarify; he thought I was reading it for English class or book club.

[Anonymous No.4253069]

>>4253046

Concerning the book, i was a bookworm growing up. I hate television, but i like movies and plays. Most people like tv and have never even gone to a play, and only read books when told to. We have a culture that deems books to be work, so while your idea of the attitude of doing things for recognition might have a legitimate basis, i think you can chalk that particular experience up to modern culture.

Joining speech or debate gives you better communication skills. If you are going out of your way to be better at communicating, would you not like future educators employers to know? We may see the process as the goal, and the actual goal of the process, but we get the same benifit. I take a class because it is required i do so, i get credit because i have taken it, and on the surface you could say why take classes since they are just for ostentation, but the reward of what is gained is the same.

I don't want to see the next generation only doing things for credit, but if giving them credit encourages a broadening of horizons and discovery of things they like, as well as new things they can excel at, what is the harm? No five year old wants to play the violin, but they may grow to love the violin later and if not forced early on, they won't have the skill. They may never even discover the violin, and a virtuoso is lost. How many great politicians, i wonder, did debate and speech just for credit and fell in love with it?

[Anonymous No.4253107]

who the fuck even cares.
seriously op

[Anonymous No.4253114]

You are a faggot OP, thats like saying "hurr I like my job and don't think I should go to the bank and get my pay because that would mean I dont really like my job"

[Anonymous No.4253119]

>>4253069
Colleges SHOULD accept people who are genuinely interested in the subjects that they pursue. I agree; some people who join speech and debate will later find that they love it; others will find it an absolute chore, but still stick with it because their parents told them lawyers make six figures. Distinguishing between the two types of students is almost impossible, so I wouldn't say all the blame should be attributed to the institution.

I knew people who joined s&d to look good for college (I'm using speech and debate as a substitute for extra curricular activities in general), found out they hated it, but still stayed in it. Yes, they definitely acquired skills throughout the process. Yes, the benefit is the same whether or not they actually enjoyed it or not. But, like I said earlier, the negative effect of doing things for recognition is that you lose the desire to do things that don't give you recognition (such as reading books). I get your point about society deeming reading as "work". Very few people are so genuinely interested in literature, science, math, etc. that they would do it in their free time. But those are the people who I respect the most because they do those things even when they don't receive recognition. I think this is what society should strive for. We should do those things that we are interested in, independent of how much praise we get for it. The way education works right now is exactly the opposite.

1/2

[Anonymous No.4253121]

>>4253069

Your argument about doing "things for credit may help you find something you actually like doing" is somewhat faulty. I can explain it better through an example. I'm in college, and I don't know how to play the piano at all. But I know I love the sound of the piano, and I'd love to try to learn it. But I don't have enough time because of all the things I'm doing for credit (classes, clubs, etc). The things that I do for credit get in the way of the things (that are deemed as unworthy of credit, ie. piano) that I'm interested in. In a world where we do things where the process is the goal, our horizons by default are infinite. But in this world, our horizons are limited by the things we "have" to do for credit. In my hypothetical world, the violinist in your example wouldn't have started playing at the age of five. But, when he gets to age ten or fifteen, he would (probably) discover the violin, fall in love, and pursue it because he loves it, not because he was forced into learning it.

I think the fundamental difference in our ideas are that you mostly care about the results (what we learn is the same no matter if we learn the subject if we love it or if we learn the subject for credit/ostentation) and I care about the motivation. If I'm right (and correct me if I'm not), then your view completely disregards the happiness of the individual.

2/2

Btw, Feynman's thoughts on Nobel prize (only 2 minutes long, def. worth a watch) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f61KMw5zVhg

[Anonymous No.4253132]

>>4253114
Our world thinks the process shouldn't be the goal and the money should (and what you just said shows that you agree, retard)

[Anonymous No.4253136]

>>4253132

Yea but how are you gonna live with no money?

[Anonymous No.4253143]

>>4253136
You can't. That's a fault in the way our society works, not in the way you act.

[Anonymous No.4253147]

>>4253121

While i respect your argument, i have to disagree with the idea that our horizons are limited by what we get credit for. Our horizons are limited by what we are able to do that is of use. I wish we lived in a society where everyone could do what they love and live comfortably, but the fact of the matter is that college is there to give you skills/degrees that get you better jobs. There is a small niche of people with money that can afford to study things they like, but most people are in it for careers. Careers are fueled by skills useful for making money, so credit is given for such. Piano can be taken in your spare time if you so wished, as it was in mine. I play violin and piano, am a fair sketcher and sculptor, and still managed to get into college for a science degree. They may not care about those things, but i do, so i made time. If i got credit for those things would it not defeat the purpose of what you are saying? Then it would be "just for credit". If you are proposing not getting any credit for any extra curriculars, then you have the problem of people over focusing on one area in order to compete against other potential students. They may not have any interests besides study, being that grades would be the only thing to set them apart from other students. I understand where you are coming from on this, but it's a double edged sword...and i think the current side cuts less.

[Anonymous No.4253168]

because recognition is a good thing you autistic fuck. there's no reason not to. it's like saying 'why do you pick up your paycheck if you enjoy your job?'

[Anonymous No.4253170]

>>4253147
I still don't think people should view education in terms of which classes will give you better jobs, or which skills will make us more "useful". I don't think each individual should do things they don't like doing, and for recognition, because that way very few people are happy. Surely we can all do the things we enjoy, regardless of recognition, and still live in a functional civilization. But I really don't want to get start talking about hypothetical societies and post scarcity and all of that. Thanks for the conversation.

>>4253168
>recognition is a good thing
>because you get money

Do you seriously not see that faulty reasoning? Read the thread.

[Anonymous No.4253191]

>>4252976

>getting recognition for it shouldn't matter to you.
>The satisfaction of teaching tennis should be enough

"Should/Shouldnt"=Value Statement

Your argument relies on that statement as if its a fact.
Hence your argument is invalid.

>So, if you actually teach tennis because it interests you, why do you need to turn in service hours?

Service hours are like an added bonus. It's fun and I look good for colleges.

He has already explained it to you.
Are you a fucking idiot?

[Anonymous No.4253194]

>>4253170

Perhaps if we didn't push college as the go-to for careers, people could do what they like in their free time. Trade schools don't give a shit about extra curriculars. We have a shift in values that trades are low class, when a hundred years ago they were respectable. I convinced my young brother in law to become a mechanic, instead of going for engineering, since that is what he was really looking for anyway. There's money in the trades, so its not an argument of that, just no one wants to say they are a plumber. Imagine how much schooling could be skipped if the kids destined for jobs and not giving a shit about academics would just go into the trades? We could practically forgo high-school all together. Just need to eradicate the myth of "go to college, or flip burgers" shit we push on kids. Maybe we do it so that we can say our kids wen't to college, and they do it so they can say they are educated. In that regard maybe you are right about ostentation being a fuel of education. With that i can agree, and i thank you for the conversation as well. Its one of the few civil and intelligent ones i've had on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.4253201]

>>4253191
>value statement
>therefore invalid argument
No shit it isn't a fact, it's a fucking opinion that I'm arguing for.

>He has already explained it to you.
>Are you a fucking idiot?
Are you fucking kidding me? Did you read the rest of that post?

Probably got trolled 1/10 made me reply

[Anonymous No.4253207]

This is why I didn't do a single "official" extra-curricular in High school. I did real extra-curricular activities myself, like reading wikipedia or fucking around with a breadboard.

My/this generation seems to take this weird path of least resistance where they do shit because they're told it will look good or they'll get paid well, and then they can go watch their favorite show or go shopping. It is sometimes so scarily reminiscent of Brave New World. People don't even need to be conditioned or drugged to be so extremely complacent.

Also, Feynman did end up accepting the prize.

[Anonymous No.4253216]

But richard feynmann didn't decline the prize because "the discovery was satisfaction enough"

he declined the prize because he wanted to look like a badass and wanted the recognition of being one of the few people to decline the most prestigious science award

[Anonymous No.4253217]

>>4253216
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f61KMw5zVhg
I guess in the end it's up to you to take his word for it or not.

[Anonymous No.4253223]

>>4253201

>No shit it isn't a fact, it's a fucking opinion that I'm arguing for.

Except you didnt argue for those statements, you've just assumed them as true to further advance your argument that whatever he does is just for "reputation in college".

>Are you fucking kidding me Did you read the rest of that post?

Yes i have.
Let me repeat:

>So, if you actually teach tennis because it interests you, why do you need to turn in service hours?"

It's fun and I look good for colleges.

He is interested in Tennis and for the sake of his other interests, he takes the extra time WITH THAT FUCKING TENNIS TO PROMOTE HIS OTHER INTERESTS.
LEARN 2 SYNERGY FUCKTARD

Yet you are so anally-retentively stuck to your idiotic model that if he enjoys his activity for the reasons beyond the activity itself, then he couldnt enjoy the activity alone, which is the EPITOME OF BIASED BLACK AND WHITE THINKING.

Your thinking is so black and white that it makes me fucking sick.

[Anonymous No.4253227]

>>4253216
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMaBmik4VYg
More of his thoughts on the prize

[Anonymous No.4253247]

>>4253223
>Except you didnt argue for those statements, you've just assumed them as true to further advance your argument that whatever he does is just for "reputation in college".
I'll give you that I didn't flesh out my argument in the initial post. Read the rest of the thread.

>He is interested in Tennis and for the sake of his other interests, he takes the extra time WITH THAT FUCKING TENNIS TO PROMOTE HIS OTHER INTERESTS.
Exactly, he is promoting other interests by doing something that has absolutely nothing to do with his real interests in order to fit the "well-rounded" definition colleges look for. In other words, he's DOING TENNIS FOR THE FUCKING RECOGNITION. Why is doing something for recognition necessarily bad? Read the rest of the thread I'm too tired to type it all out again.

[Anonymous No.4253250]

>>4253223

Toldness Level: Over 9000
Toldness Status: Meta Told

[Anonymous No.4253257]

>>4253247

>Exactly, he is promoting other interests by doing something that has absolutely nothing to do with his real interests

What are his "real interests"?
Whow do you know what his "Real interests" are?

>DOING TENNIS FOR THE FUCKING RECOGNITION

It's fun and I look good for colleges.
It's fun
It's fun
It's fun
It's fun
It's fun
It's fun

Explain exactly which letter of the word "FUN" do you not understand?
And are you really so blinded with your fallacious preconception that you cant even SEE that part of the sentence?
This is fucking hilarious.

[Anonymous No.4253265]

Sorry I was just lolling richard feynman never turned down the nobel prize.
What a fucking idiot OP is lying to make a point and then not accepting his point falls flat.

[Ragade No.4253275]

OP, I've thought about it.
Normal, *happy* people get to do jobs that are a bit of both fun and recognition.
Certainly, those with no passion but do something for the merits bother me, but why should their motives matter to me. (lol, cognitive dissonance).
For instance OP, I find Engineering just a bit more interesting than CS (but I ruve both :(), but my grades in CS intro courses were far better than those for engineering, so I became a CS major. I did not make a choice based on solely money/recognition, nor on solely on blind preference.
Does that make the world fair, does it even fucking matter?

Everything we do is somehow tied to how we portray our own genetic fitness.
CAPTCHA: diction resistivity,
tl;dr Idealism vs Pragmatism

[Anonymous No.4253277]

>>4253257
see
>>4252976
>But it isn't that simple. You have to get papers signed, and write a little paragraph. In other words, you have to actively seek out recognition for it. It's not like you do something and instantly colleges see it without you having to do some work.

Get it? He isn't playing tennis purely because he enjoys/is interested in it. If this were true, he wouldn't have gone through the hassle of getting the forms signed and turning in service hours forms get get credit (which he ended up doing). My point is that because he needs recognition for his coaching, he isn't coaching because he is actually interested in it. Sure, it's fun, but is he INTERESTED enough that he would do tennis if he didn't get service hours for it? (you might see this as a cheap shot because you didn't know the guy but the answer is no)

>>4253265
>Feynman initially turned it down but then accepted it to keep the press from raging
>video of Feynman explaining why he hates the Nobel prize posted three times in this thread
>"my point falls flat"

You must be embarrassed after you posted that and then took a minute to read the thread

[Anonymous No.4253289]

Dear OP,

if you truly can not find something that you both enjoy and can make a living doing, then kill yourself

Sincerely,
Anon

P.S. /thread

[Anonymous No.4253298]

During highschool I earned straight A's, took many high level courses and was in the math club. I was into competitive weightlifting and read Sartre in my free time. All for the fun of it. I even took classes at the local state college in the summer.

I was a lot happier than other kids who did it for college/other reasons. While some people conform to societies standards of shitty extracurriculars, the ones who don't receive the biggest benefits. They are requires to actually do something instead of browse 4chan all day though.

[Anonymous No.4253302]

I love being in a country where the only look at your academic performance + academic related performance such as work experience and not all kinds of other bullshit. its like if you had to be good at math to be able to play football professionally.

[Anonymous No.4253305]

noko

hahah op i bet you wish you lived in a country where university admissions are done through an anonymous system based solely on test scores, oh and where you don't have to take out huge loans to go through college.

Enjoy your shitty life in herpaderp-land!

[Anonymous No.4253309]

>>4253305
>>4253302
I think both of you missed the point. There isn't much of a difference between grades and extra-curriculars. What matters is you're doing something for the sake of doing it, not for the recognition.

[Anonymous No.4253316]

>>4253309

>Implying you cant do it for both

[Anonymous No.4253318]

>>4253309
and not being forced to do something in order to get into uni enables you to do something you enjoy instead.

[Anonymous No.4253323]

>>4253316
It doesn't matter if you do it for both, because it still means you want recognition. And I think this is why that other anon said I was thinking in terms of black and white but hear me out. If you do something because you are actually interested/passionate (whatever you wanna call it) about it, you wouldn't need recognition for it.

>>4253318
what? did you mean "and being forced..."?

[Anonymous No.4253327]

>>4253323
how does being forced to do something allow you to do something else instead?

[Anonymous No.4253330]

>>4253327
Being forced to learn an instrument that you don't care much for may give you an edge up in college apps (in the US at least)

[Anonymous No.4253331]

>>4253323

>It doesn't matter if you do it for both, because it still means you want recognition

So what?

>you wouldn't need recognition for it.

Why wouldnt you need recognition?

[Anonymous No.4253340]

>>4253330
that my point, you have to spend time doing something you dont want to do, when you could have been doing something you liked, just to get into uni. if you want to get an edge, do something physics related, becasue now the places in universaty is given not to those that would do best in physics, but those that have the most free time to do irreverent shit.

[Anonymous No.4253341]

>>4253331
>So what?
You're asking me why wanting recognition is bad and I've already answered this question in these posts
>>4253046
>>4253170

>Why wouldn't you need recognition?
Because the satisfaction comes from learning the thing, not from being recognized that you got an A.

[Anonymous No.4253345]

>>4253309
If you're judged solely on your grades then at least it allows you to choose extra-curriculars based purely on enjoyment (seeing as the university admissions system does not know or care for extra-curriculars). So it is an improvement.

Also having an anonymous system removes the potential for corruption, and we all know the american university admissions system is corrupt as fuck.

But i agree with you on grades i think. Formal education is the biggest crock of shite ever. I've learnt so much in the last few years on the internet, actually taking the time to really understand things, not to mention the luxury choosing to learn about anything i want and only the specific parts i find interesting.

But unfortunately, admissions systems need some sort of objective grading, or they won't be able to ensure they operate in a fair unbiased way.

[Anonymous No.4253348]

>>4253341
Let me rephrase that: Because the satisfaction comes from learning the thing, not from being accepted by a college because of your 4.5 GPA.

[Anonymous No.4253350]

>>4253345
It definitely is an improvement in that case. What country is this?

[Anonymous No.4253357]

>>4253341

>But the problem is that the initial motivation for joining a club or working hard in college is to get recognition, not because you are interested in that department

What does that statement have to do with the fact that you can do the activity you are interested in and get the recognition for it?

>Because the satisfaction comes from learning the thing, not from being recognized that you got an A

Then why do humans want recognition if it doesnt satisfy them?

[Anonymous No.4253364]

>Richard Feynman declined a Nobel prize

Is it easier to count all people who declined a Nobel or those who took it?

That's right.

[Anonymous No.4253379]

>>4253357
>What does that statement have to do with the fact that you can do the activity you are interested in and get the recognition for it?
In order to get the recognition for it you'd need to do some work (look at the tennis example).

>Then why do humans want recognition if it doesnt satisfy them?
>implying humans want recognition
>implying that if it satisfies them, it is okay

[Anonymous No.4253390]

>>4253379

>In order to get the recognition for it you'd need to do some work (look at the tennis example).

What does that have to do with the fact that you can do the activity for the activity itself and the recognition of doing it?


>implying humans want recognition
>It doesn't matter if you do it for both, because it still means you want recognition

Now you are blatantly contradicting yourself.

>implying that if it satisfies them, it is okay

What is the "it" that you refer to?

[Anonymous No.4253439]

>>4253350
somewhere in europe.....

[Anonymous No.4253454]

>>4253439
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_and_college_admissions

holy fuck in austria, belgium and switzerland basically anyone can do any course they want.

[Anonymous No.4253481]

Do something useful with your time instead of this

cure povetry

[Anonymous No.4253491]

Being recognized isn't a bad thing, you can enjoy something and still strive to be recognized in it. I'm not sure many people would go to work without the money, identity and sometimes prestige involved.