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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3976707 No.3976707 [Reply] [Original]

very dense, over populated, jobs taking by illegal immigrants.

My friends are going to kick me out after living with them for 3 months, unable to find a job. I was studying mathematics, organic chemistry, general technology...Before that i used to work in construction, i got laid off.

I am 31, not sure what to do, supposedly homeless shelters exist and i will be living in one.

There is so much money to go around in the world, yet i won't have a dollar to live by, what the fuck is happening?

>> No.3976728

>>3976707
You are feeling the tail end of the de-glutting of the fatter corporations in 2007.

>> No.3976747

>>3976728
Trust me my friend, right now i would be satisfied cleaning dishes in the back of a restaurant for some money in my pocket.

>> No.3976762

You are the 99%

>> No.3976765

>>3976747
You asked what happened.

What happened is you came of age in a time of gluttony, so you behaved as if your inflated worth would continue.

Then suddenly, the world failed to achieve the goal, and the businesses crashed, and slowly the house cards fell, and then suddenly an entire generation has to relearn the value of what society does for them.

>> No.3976778

>>3976765
HyperTiger?

>> No.3976785

how is the city of stony brook?
Im from South Dakota and was thinking of going to SUNY stony brook

>> No.3976789

travel... pray.... share your talents

>> No.3976791

move to Alberta
work in the oilfields
even at entry level you can save up all you need for school in a few years
ANY school.
Not even trolling.
Look into it.

It IS tough work though they dont just magically pay you great money for no reason.
Last time I was out there I made $45 an hour before danger pay scales for consecutive hours, additional seasonal danger pay as well. Isolation pay on top of all that too depending, additional money too depending on different things such as whether you are in camp steady or hotels/camp ect). Being in a truck counts.
My job? Radio checks for firewatch, a big long nap and some driving. Also you need to be able to piss clean.

And I suppose the whole work visa thing, unsure how that works

>> No.3976798

>>3976785

Stonybrook is not a city. It's an affluent suburb/quaint little town.

>> No.3976806

>>3976778
Shit, thats crazy.

>> No.3976807

Blame your politicians for allowing so many goddamn immigrants. The U.S. has one of the highest immigration rates in the world. And that's not even counting ILLEGAL immigrants!

Unskilled and uneducated white men have to compete with illegal Mexican immigrants to get manual labor jobs.

My advice to you would be to get your parents to pay (or get a loan) for a trade school. Get a license to fix air conditioners or fix pipes. You will find a job, believe me.

>> No.3976813

>>3976807
Montequilla, last of the meheecans

>> No.3976814

>>3976807
Oh shut up.

>kk thanks.

>> No.3976821

OP go into computer science, guaranteed a good job when you graduate

>> No.3976827

>>3976807
>Unskilled and uneducated white men have to compete with illegal Mexican immigrants to get manual labor jobs.

As a middle class white male, I say good, let them compete. We are all given 12 years of free education, and loans are available for anyone who wants to go to college. Remaining unskilled in 2011 is a choice.

>> No.3976835

Work, mexican work!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqKB969NC-k

>> No.3977124

>>3976821
not sure if you're trolling.

tons of people on 4chan took compscience and it got them nowhere...

>> No.3977146

>>3976821
compsci grad here, this is lies

>> No.3977147

>>3976827
I hope you realize how suicidal that line of thought is. You have the choice, as a citizen, to maintain your economic safety, but you willfully surrender it all.

Yes, it is sad that many Mexicans do not have many opportunities. But what created the opportunities we have? Our ancestors worked hard to establish the economy and lifestyle we have. Mexicans should stay in their own nation and establish good schools, universities, and metropolises. America need not take the role of "bearing the white man's burden" by sheltering third-worlders. Not in this economy, no.

>> No.3977161

I listened to an npr program recently that was talking to farmers about illegal labor. One of the farmers interviewed said that he had hired 20 americans in the previous month. 17 of them never showed up for work. and 2 of them quit after the first day.

In his case, it isn't that undocumented immigrants are taking the jobs away from americans, but that americans will not, or cannot do the job.

>> No.3977164

>>3977161
>NPR
>flagrant liberal bias

Well, there's your problem.

>> No.3977173

>>3976707
Maybe this is a crazy suggestion, but if you do manage to get some money in the near future, why not try living and working in a foreign country for awhile? Most places in South America, for example. You don't even need to know Spanish for many jobs.

>> No.3977180
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3977180

>>3977164

Deal with it.

Also, the immigrants bring over families and have to feed themselves. They don't make much so they save little, leaving most of their money to cycle. The rich are more of a burden on the economy then they are.

But of course, they're brown people so they must be bad.

>> No.3977189

illegal immigration=wage depression and de facto waiving of health and safety regs=jobs unpalatable to americans

no illegal immigrations= wage inflation, safer workplaces = jobs more appealing to americans

BUT

What about the migrant labourers? Don't they deserve a fair shake?
What about the farmers? Won't having to pay higher wages and observe occupational safety laws cut into their bottom margin?

WELL

Some production will shift to jurisdictions with lower marginal costs. The migrant labourers can stay at home and actually support themselves, and everyone is a winner.

>> No.3977193

This is the free market, and its perfect. You probably don't deserve to live.

>> No.3977195

>>3977147
By worked hard I assume you mean conquering? Faggot doesn't know shit about history

>> No.3977197
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3977197

>>3977164

>oh no an organization disagrees with my narrow world view

>LIBBBBBRUL

gb2/new/

>> No.3977200

>>3977180
Individually, they are not a major problem. But when you have millions and millions of illegals, it adds up.

It doesn't matter that they are brown. If these were Aryan German illegal immigrants, there would be the same problem. It's all numbers. U.S. natives are being deprived of jobs they once were promised. Wages are a function of how much labor is available and willing to take sub-minimum wage. Do you, as an American citizen, want aggregate wages to decrease? Forget all political ideologies--what about your current or future pay? It's in your immediate interest for wages to be high.

>> No.3977206

>>3976785
NYCfag here from what I hear it is worse upstate not that it is much better in the city but so long as you don't live in Manhattan (Most of it anyway) or rich areas in the other bouroughs you can survive in the city. It ain't as bad in NYC as everywhere else there are jobs to go around and job placement programs as well just need to know where to look.

>> No.3977208

>>3977200
Actually it isn't. High wages leads to high inflation, which leads to my money being worth less. Which makes the higher wages pointless.

>> No.3977214

>>3977197
Whether NPR has a liberal bias is completely irrelevant to the argument you two are having, but NPR having a liberal slant is fairly well known.

>> No.3977216

>>3977208
Oh right, almost forgot the bad part. Since I do not work in the effected industry, I would not expect to see a wage increase, meaning that while the higher wages balances with inflation for some, I would most likely be poorer.

>> No.3977218

>>3977208

How do high wages lead to high inflation?

>> No.3977229

>>3977200

>It's all numbers. U.S. natives are being deprived of jobs they once were promised.

Yea us Indians need to get together and take our jobs back from these white folks.

>Wages are a function of how much labor is available and willing to take sub-minimum wage. Do you, as an American citizen, want aggregate wages to decrease? Forget all political ideologies--what about your current or future pay? It's in your immediate interest for wages to be high.

1.) More families come and consume
2.) More labor is required

This is not a difficult concept.

>> No.3977231

>>3977218
if everyone makes at least $20 an hour than $20 is no longer worth as much as it is today.

>> No.3977233

http://newyork.craigslist.org/jjj/

Good luck brah.

>> No.3977234

>>3977218
Higher wages, leads to smaller profit margins, which leads to price increases. Since everyone eats, food is one of the factors used to determine inflation. So higher food costs = inflation.

>> No.3977260

>>3976707
This is 4chan so the usual response is to say something like "sucks to be you" along with some insults and other generally disparaging comments. Assuming you're not a troll though, I feel for you and what you're about to go through.

Homeless shelters are shit in NYC. You will end up at some big center with hundreds of other people as they process you. You'll get to deal with a fuckton of bureaucracy for several days. The first night in the center you'll get some shots too, and you can expect to spend that night vomiting at regular intervals.

After that they should eventually find you temporary shelter, usually in something resembling a cheap motel with a curfew. Families get small studio apartments but I don't know what singles guys get. You'll be in a shitty neighborhood surrounded by drug addicts and other general fuck-ups.

After that I don't know what happens. I hope shit works out for you though. Just keep going and eventually something will come up. Trust me when I say that no matter how bad things get, completely unexpected opportunities can show up out of nowhere and change everything. There's no guarantees, but it's possible, so don't give up.

>> No.3977277

>>3977260
There are a couple first come first serve shelters. That open at 6, but usually require lining up by 3 to get a space.

>> No.3977290

>>3977234

I feel like there must be something fundamentally wrong with that but I cant really figure that out. It makes sense. It also seems to match up with this formula I know:

GDP * Inflation = Velocity of money * Money Supply

Paying people more money I think would constitute an increase in the velocity of money, which must manifest itself in terms of economy growth or inflation.

Anyway, if we measure inflation in terms of CPI, I bet the effect of inflation would be exaggerated.

>> No.3977296

Join the good fight on wall street, every man counts. Everyone who isn't a liberal arts hipster counts double.

>> No.3977303
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3977303

>> No.3977306

>>3977290
wrong board.

you want >>>/pol/

Thats where they discuss abstract notions about reality.

>> No.3977314

>>3977306

No thanks.

/pol/ is crazy and stupid. A lot of people just clinging to political ideas like someone might cling to a religious one. There is no science on /pol/

>> No.3977324

>>3977314
Perfect for you.

>irony sage

>> No.3977329

>>3977314

It's so bad they don't even understand the difference between right and left libertarianism.

The board is simply a disgrace.

>> No.3977336

>>3977324

No its really not.

"How is libertarianism/Communism wrong?" is not a question I could answer. Neither am I an expert on jews.

>> No.3977341

>>3977290
Well there are other ways it can play out. This assumed all of the farmers started paying more.

If only some farmers paid more, they would raise prices, and then their business would fail from lack of sales.

Then either A, a government subsidation program would start, allowing these farmers to remain profitable, after which the competition would raise wages to recieve the subsidies. or B. the farmers go under, then their competition with less product to satisfy demand, would raise prices.

Under, A, it ends the same way as our original scenarios, higher wages, and an increased cost of living, in this case, from more taxes spent, meaning more taxes collected (perhaps? it gets iffy, with debts, etc)
Under B we end up with the same increased cost of living, but the wages remain low, and many people are out of work.

Fortunately, the market could most likely correct itself, as this high profitability, could convince a new competitor to appear driving prices back down. Unfortunately, our hypothetical workers still make shit.

>> No.3977362

>>3977324
yep.
/pol/ is shit.
Stop bringing the shit here.
Ron Paul is a fag.
Obama is a Muslim.
Liberal = Communist.
OWS is a bunch of hippies who want free beer.

>> No.3977363

>>3977336
What? economists answer those questions all the time, and then some.

Political science is just appplied economics.

For the love of god, you're on the wrong board, now that >>>/pol/ is open.

byebye

>> No.3977368

>>3977341

I could also imagine a circumstance in which businesses simply become less profitable and have to make cuts somewhere (like R&D for example). I think then wages would go up and inflation might not occur.

But that has to assume that people could pick up the slack when it comes to investing money into new technologies, or that the resources used to research and develop could easily transition into productive resources.

Such a situation might hinder long term economic growth.

>> No.3977371

You forgot about the large population of Jews.

>> No.3977373
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3977373

i see you think stonybrook is a city....it is a small town port jeff is a much bigger town, certainly it is a moderate sized university but its very competitive for suny there ballbusters

>> No.3977385

what it comes down to OP is that there are millions of mexicans and other immigrants willing to do unskilled labor. this is not something new or unexpected; the same has been true your entire life. the way to fix the situation is to somehow put yourself in the position where you can do skilled labor, just like almost every other 30 year old white person that isn't homeless has done. stop being such a whiney victim, stop pointing fingers at everything and everyone but yourself, get off your ass and make something happen.

>> No.3977392

>>3977363

>What? economists answer those questions all the time, and then some.

No they dont.

Libertarianism and communism are just massive generalities.To say libertarianism is bad is to assume that libertarian ideas, such as "free markets are good" is a bad idea. Are free markets "good"? Well that really depends on what you feel is good. It also really depends on the circumstance. A free market could be good in some industries, and bad in others. But, then again, to say its either a free market or not is a false dichotomy.

Before you tell me to go to /pol/ once again. Realize that I would like to talk about observations and data. I would not like to sit around crying that my abstract bullshit political values arent being acknowledged.

>> No.3977393

>2011
>still defending illegal immigration with long debunked librul talking points

You cannot cheat physics. Average wealth of an individual in a society is a function of wealth / people. More people, less wealth per capita, poorer population.
inb4 "huurr they work and consume" classic fallacy that you can achieve prosperity by more people spending and consuming, or diluting wealth my more people". You cant, again, physics trumps economics in the longterm. In practice, more people consuming - inflation. And until unemployment rate is nairu or lower, argument that we need more workers (especially unqualified workers) is equally indefensible.
This is all disregarding social effects of illegals like increased crime and education/healthcare, social system strain, which are equally if not more important as economic effects.

>> No.3977399

>>3977368
Well yes, but now we are getting into crazy market forecasting. I'd rather be a weatherman, it is too complex for me, and anything beyond basic models would be speculation. In fact since I don't even know a fraction of the formulas, even keeping things simple is partly speculation.

The actuality might differ, but one the basic level, we can link higher wages to increased inflation. So while I might support a wage increase in certain situations, where I felt workers are underpaid, a general increase would usually be bad for me personally.

>> No.3977404

>>3977393

>You cannot cheat physics. Average wealth of an individual in a society is a function of wealth / people. More people, less wealth per capita, poorer population.

This neglects the welfare benefit people get from the productive benefit of illegal immigrants.

Circumstance 1:
Prices : A
Population B

Circumstance 2
Prices : A - a
People : B + b

From the stand point of population B, who cares if you per capita formula goes down? You are better off.

>> No.3977411

>>3977399

>The actuality might differ

Agreed.

>we can link higher wages to increased inflation

This makes sense to me now and I will be sure to remember it.

>> No.3977415

move to Australia. Plenty of jobs in construction. But you'll have to work in the desert. GOOD money. Receptionists earn $80k out there.

>> No.3977461

>>3976707

no matter how destitute you are,

if you had proper hygiene, decency and some goddamn personality, your friends probably wouldnt kick you out

>what the fuck is happening?

stop trying to find fault with your environment or circumstance and start getting your act together

the world is tough place you piece of shit, youd better learn to be a hardworking nice guy who shaves- or youre fucked

>> No.3977469

resident /sci/ economist...you don't know everything. Stop thinking you do and grow up if you are going to post on /sci/

>> No.3977487

>>3977469

attack the arguments and not the person you fool

>> No.3977503

>>3977469
>>3977487

I would appreciate attacking my statements too.

Also for the record I am a big dummy who doesnt actually know anything.

>> No.3977512

Move to Japan. For 23 years and 11 months had I suffered them, the ignorant gaijin back home who sickened me with their microwaved culture and their materialism. The spindly losers in the anime club who cared only for anime and not a whit for the superior monoethnic culture to which it was endemic. Well no more. Fucking zettai no more. I touched down in the country I was certain I had lived all my previous lives, no doubt as a badass ronin samurai ninja or some shit. I had never been here, but I had returned.

Nippon-sama, tadaima!

No sooner had I left the airport when I saw the woman of my dreams. She confirmed my every hope, my every ideal of this great land. The light coming in through the sakura backlit her like a full body halo. She was made of demure and soft spoken. Of bowing and bento.

Of Japan and perfect.

My heart started doki doki-ing all over the shop. And then she saw me! Spotted me in the crowd! Well, of course she did, I was like a head taller than the fucking hobbits they call men around here. I was in no state of mind to meet her gaze, and tried to look away but I was paralysed. She was just so ... prettyu ...

And just like that she started walking over. Her walk was just pure concentrated sex. If you poured a glass of it sex fumes would just rise right off the top. I loved the way the light danced unevenly over her pristine porcelain skin as she walked. The way she did more for me by showing just her shoulders than any American girls could by showing their entire gaping cleavage for all the world to SEE THIS YOU SHOULD TAKE NOTES, THIS IS WHAT SEXY IS YOU FUCKING WHORES.

>> No.3977536
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3977536

>>3977512

cool story gaijin

>> No.3977544

the solution is simple

move out of New York

>> No.3977565

There's a magical place out there looking for blue collar workers.

North Dakota

http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/04/news/economy/oil_shale_bakken/index.htm

I hope you don't mind living in shelters that are like communes.

>> No.3977762

Bump because I like this thread.

>> No.3977772

>>3977762
You mean you like your mental masturbation in this thread.

Meanwhile poor OP who doesn't live with his parents is going to be homeless.

>> No.3977808
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3977808

For all those people blaming immigrants, i.e. Mexicans, cause let's be serious that is who you are talking about, modern agriculture business can't function without cheap workforce. Can you imagine if every farm worker was paid just minimum wage? No benefits, no health or dental or even housing. Just minimum wage would increase the price of food astoundingly? Think about that why don't you?

>> No.3977822

>>3977808
This. There's a shortage of workers in Alabama because of strict immigration laws. Food is actually rotting on the plants it grows on.

>> No.3977824

>>3977808

Couldnt it be argued that its not fair to pay them less than minimum wage?

>> No.3977829

>>3977824
>>>/pol/

>> No.3977831

>>3977824
Come on bro. In the middle of this feeble recovery, do we really want the price of food to increase?

>> No.3977842

>>3977831

I dont know. I dont really mean to express an opinion.

If you force them to pay minimum wage consumption goes up too. Not to say that justifies anything.

>> No.3977850

>>3977842
No, consumption goes down because there are a whole lot less jobs available. Either that or mass starvation, one or the other.

>> No.3977861

>>3977850

Okay, I dont know, maybe consumption will go down. But I am just saying these illegal immigrants are going to spend their extra $3 or $4 dollars an hour. Versus if that money was in the hands of their employer the spending would be a bit more ambiguous.

I cant say what the outcome would be. But, as far as fairness. I dont see why american workers should be paid any different than illegal immigrants. If minimum wage is bad its universally bad.

>> No.3977862

>>3977861
But that money's not in the hands of the employer. Well, a little of it is, but the majority of it is in the hands of consumers. Because paying minimum wage to migrant workers would either completely fuck the farming industry, or it would go straight to much much higher like 30%+ minimum increased food prices. Obviously not for everything, shit like corn where it's pretty much automated is fine, but for vegetables it's taking money out of every consumer's pocket and giving it to the workers.

>> No.3977867

>>3977862
Adding to that:
It's not entirely true that minimum wage is "bad" in that scenario, it's that enforcing it out of nowhere would be an extremely bad supply shock. Yes, minimum wage is "bad" from a purely economic standpoint not considering social effects or the economic consequences of those effects; however, it is much less "bad" to have minimum wage only affecting less critical jobs and some workers mostly in service than to have it affecting every job. In fact, the way it works now, we get most of the positive social effects of minimum wage while keeping prices lower; from the perspective of everyone except for those migrant workers who would inevitably be unable to find work at minimum wage, the current system is less "bad".

>> No.3977872

>>3977862
>>3977867


>But that money's not in the hands of the employer.

Oh Im sorry. Thats really obviously true. My bad.

But, to some extent it depends on the nature of the employer which I dont know a lot about. Depending on the inddustry a lot of companies could pay their employees more, it just comes down to them deciding to spend money in other places. I dont know thats how the illegal immigrant worker scenario is. I would assume its just a small time farmer paying illegal immigrants and selling his produce to a larger corporation, which case it would probably mean its not the employers money, its the consumers money.

It seems like this has become a discussing minimum wage in general. Im open to the idea minimum wage is bad in general. From a moral perspective however I think its bad that illegal immigrants get it so relatively rough.

>> No.3977951
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3977951

It's not just migrant workers in agriculture, it's also factory workers in manufacturing industries in Mexico. NAFTA was promoted as helping all of North American nations but it seems to have only been used to exploit Mexico. Factory workers work longer workdays without breaks or permission to use restrooms, the management has been known to chain and lock the EMERGENCY EXITS so employees won't leave to eat lunch. This is all while few if any health,environmental, and safety codes are ignored by the corporations. They wages are so meager that most of them can't buy the same products that they are manufacturing. Meanwhile the Americans who lost their jobs when the plant was relocated are still paying for the same price of the product as if it was made in american soil. Here is a link to a documentary about it called MAQUILOPOLIS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRdu5qo-htU