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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3931878 No.3931878 [Reply] [Original]

While I do understand that books are a very convenient way of recording information for future reference, I can plainly say that they are also an incredibly useless medium for learning now that there are better more interactive, more convenient ways to present information.
Writing a text book is very good way of helping a mathematician practice and entrain information in his memory, for after having written one, what he is merely efficient at understanding, the knowledge becomes second hand to him.

Universities have been forcing us to use text books, and go to lectures for such a long time, that they are merely holding back their students because they are too lazy to put in the time, or spend the money to buy, video lectures of a reasonable quality, presented by lecturers which have actual social skills so that their material is understandable.
Ever since I have discovered video learning, my university experience is becoming more and more cynical. Time going to and from university I can spend re-watching videos of demonstrations. I can pause, repeat, repeat again, or jump to a different lecturer simply by browsing youtube or a learning channel on some googled website, for almost any subject, and this is both convenient for me and much easier to learn from now that I have what I call 'internetitis' or 'technology-driven attention degradation' (non-medical culture-induced ADD).

cont.

>> No.3931885

If, instead of spending funds on paying lecturers, the university created an online video learning facility, and a 16h/day help-center for each facility and sub-facility students can access a temporary tutor when they are stuck on material, I am very sure many students these days would be getting the support they need to excel in their course work. Instead of having 1 test, and 1 exam, they should be testing ideas weekly, and allowing resits for the tests so that a student can have a chance of learning from his mistakes in his first semester, rather than repeating a subject completely. There are a lot of small changes that would help students greatly that universities are just unwilling to even think about.

What are other people's views? Would this environment create good learning habits? Would it be more or less expensive? I know many universities are starting to move toward this model of learning, but they do not utilize it very well, or it is a half-baked or poor quality unprofessional execution.
What does /sci/ think?

>learning matrices and linear algebra online atm, because the first two years of my engineering degree taught me jack shit

>tldr; universities are using outdated learning strategies, or strategies that make them the most money

>> No.3931907

couldn't agree more, i've had similar thoughts for a few years now

something i'd like to add- it pisses me off that instruction and evaluation are carried about by the same people. I think it should be seperate: in order to get a degree (in math/engineering/sciences at least) you should just be required to do pass so many tests and fulfill so many lab hours (since this is basically what happens anyway)- but have those tests be available once every 1 or 2 months. students learn the material at their own pace, using the materials at their disposal (video lectures, professors, other students, books, etc), and then take a test whenever they feel ready. this would be a lot more productive IMO

>> No.3931929

TL;DR: I'm too lazy to go to lectures. Why can't I just sit at home, watch a video and take the tests whenever I want to?

>> No.3931933

bumping because i am an angsty uni student and i need people to comment meeeeeeeeee

>> No.3931943

what about classes where the learning environment more resembles a forum than a lecture, and students actually exchange ideas? would you replace them, and if so, how?

...i have to admit, i haven't actually been in any courses like the one i just described. god i hate school

>> No.3931958

>>3931929
why would that be bad? how is doing the tests when you are ready worse than being forced to do them on a certain date? why should students have to spend money on public transport when they can get just as good an education from videos in their own home?


my biggest qualm is the length of a semester. they teach you shit for 12-14 weeks, and you have to keep learning stuff all the way up to the exam, rather than having nice 6-8 week terms like in school. There is very little push for revision once you finish a subject, there should be more integration within tests between subjects in a course.

>> No.3931962

>>3931943
no, those are are important to a lot of subjects especially the humanities. Those are called Tutes in my country and most courses have them (and they are good)

>> No.3931982

>>3931962
i'm a math major, so no tutes for me :(

man i'm surprised more people aren't posting in here OP, this is one of the few genuinely interesting threads i've seen on here all night. but i'm kinda glad too- if this thing had taken off i'd probably stay up to watch it, and i'm fuckin tired

>> No.3931986

>Some people learn differently than I do. I wish they would stop.

>> No.3931993

>>3931907
> this would be a lot more productive IMO

Oh yes, but it would obsolete a lot of instructors, who in controlling the system now, will NEVER allow that to happen.

This is all about keeping the same information technology that killed the blue-collar workers, from killing off the white-collar workers. Teachers, lawyers and doctors will NEVER allow infotech to do that to their professions, and they have the sheer wealth and cultural positions to enforce that.

Angry yet? By keeping people in such positions, they keep education, legal and medical services AS EXPENSIVE AS POSSIBLE. They will make you poor first before they ever let go... and since they'll have all the money and you'll be poor, they will STILL be in control.

>> No.3931994

> www.youtube.com
> http://www.educator.com/

>> No.3932001

>>3931993
oh look, it's the resource war fearmonger again.

>> No.3932004

>>3931958

>why would that be bad? how is doing the tests when you are ready worse than being forced to do them on a certain date?

You think tests just magically appear when a student wants to sit one, get marked by the assessment fairy and come back to you?

The lecturer needs to write the test. It needs to be sufficiently close to the content of the course so the students will be able to do it, but sufficiently different from prior year's so faggots like you wouldn't just copy the old answers. Then a test needs to be marked, often by grad students, who really don't give a fuck about your undergraduate pretensions and just want to tick or cross your shit based on a well defined marking scheme.

Think about the logistics of having tests whenever you want for a second. I know thinking is a bit harder than watching videos, but you're in university now. You can handle it.

>> No.3932013

>>3931993
i dunno... while i don't have a hell of a lot of faith in academics, i'd like to think that some of them would put progress ahead of their own livelihood (especially since an educator who designs systems that puts educators out of work will still have a job)

>> No.3932021

>Can't ask video lecturer questions
>Can't challenge or expand on a topic like I do now in class
>Can't interact with video lecturer in any way, thus losing the social aspect of academia.

I'm all for sitting in a real lecture. The textbook part I agree with though.

>> No.3932022

>>3932001
> oh look, it's the resource war fearmonger again.

I noticed that you didn't try to debate anything I said. That often happens since people know they can't fight my facts and logic. In other words, what I said was true, and the opposition to it is profoundly illogical and propagandized, hence they (ie. you) aren't really opposition at all.

So I won. You lost. And that's how it should be.

>> No.3932023

>>3932004
they wouldn't be available on command, dumbass, they'd be available on a regular basis, which wouldn't be all that different from the way tests are conducted now. but one key difference is that people could learn at their own pace- those who learn faster could take a test sooner and move on to more advanced shit, while those who learn slower could take a test after taking 7 months to learn the material instead of 5 (or 10, if they have to waste their time repeating a course)

>> No.3932027

Where is your pic from?
It looks Oxbridge-y. I'm leaning toward Oxford, because of its castle-esque, sandstone nature.

>> No.3932032

>>3932004
there we go. all those lecturers who lost their job can now become test-writers. fill the same hours, keep their same wage, and there are thousands of tests to practice on, and thousands of tests to pick from for assessment. it would also allow for a constantly updating curriculum because of the manpower behind the curriculum support.

>> No.3932033

>>3932021
how often do people ask questions in class? it doesn't happen often at my school. instead of wasting a professors time by having him regive a lecture that's been given by thousands of other people thousands of time already, have that professor be available for students to come and ask questions. i think having a professor available one on one (or within a small group of students) would be a hell of a lot more helpful than in a classroom with 30 or 200 students

>> No.3932041

>>3932013
> i dunno... while i don't have a hell of a lot of faith in academics, i'd like to think that some of them would put progress ahead of their own livelihood (especially since an educator who designs systems that puts educators out of work will still have a job)

That's cute. Academics are pissant little selfish simians like most people. They aren't lofted above the pettiness of common Humans at all. In short, they will act to preserve their jobs even in cases when it proves damaging to others. Remember, most academics can SOCIALIZE their job's costs, so by dilution across the public, they can rationalize that it doesn't hurt any particular person too deeply. Now of course in the era of massive student-loan debts, that's more and more absurd, but we still don't see academics pushing for more efficient instruction methods (which naturally would cost them their jobs).

Administrators have done what they can, but have only worked towards killing off tenure. They need to work harder at downsizing the academic class itself ... but that's also against their own self interest, right? They would end up with less of a kingdom to manage. So there won't be any particular help there, either.

>> No.3932044

>>3932023

All you're telling me is, "I'm a first year."

We have 8 people taking number theory a year. You would let these students take tests on a "regular" basis?

Tell me. How many students would you need to make your scheme efficient? I assume you've done the maths and have a pretty good idea already, since this is quite an obvious objection to your scheme and you would have a response prepared.

>> No.3932048

>>3932033
i guess im the only fucking loser who asks questions in class.

>wants to learn more than lecture offers.

>> No.3932049

All you've done is demonstrate why large, lecture-based universities are inherently inferior to small, group-based institutions.

Do you want to know the real reason /sci/ spends so much time whining and complaining about liberal arts schools? Because they know that they provide more comprehensive education than the big "traditional" universities, but can't seem to admit it because of the stigma. My children will not be going to a school that:
1. Uses TA's to "teach" most of the undergraduate courses.
2. Has a student-faculty ratio of greater than 30-1.
3. Relies on lecture hall courses as opposed to group-based structures for anything beyond the freshman level.

>> No.3932053

>>3932041
if you pay professors more to design new technology-friendly curriculum than you pay them to conduct lectures the way they currently do, then i'm sure there are many professors who'd be glad to jump ship, for selfish reasons or not. the only incentive they'd have not to do it in that case would be some kind of weird loyalty to their colleagues and profession

>> No.3932057

>>3932041

>but we still don't see academics pushing for more efficient instruction methods

Some of the best lecturers I've had used chalk and blackboard. Yet you seem to be of the opinion that "efficient" instruction methods require Tweeter and Facebook and other worthless shit that doesn't contribute to anything. Explain yourself.

>> No.3932062

education is a business

they can't justify charging 800$ a credit for online classes even though it could very well be superior. especially if its supplemented with occasional recitation type meetings with small groups of people and a tutor. fuck, you could do a bachelors in physics in 2 years easy.

>> No.3932063

>>3932004
> You think tests just magically appear when a student wants to sit one, get marked by the assessment fairy and come back to you?

It's information, and we've long used INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY to handle these things. There's nothing magical or mystical about the information in the education system that excludes it from being handled via info-tech.

And YES, we need to move some of these academic mouthbreathers into on-demand test-scorers if necessary. Don't like that? FIND ANOTHER FUCKING CAREER.

We've forced a lot of the lawyers coming out of law school into legal-research weenies, plowing through paperwork for long hours each workday, stuck in partnerships where their chances of promotion to "real" lawyer work is slim. That's what's EFFICIENT, so that's what you get for having too many lawyer bodies. Don't like that either? THEN FUCKING QUIT AND GO BACK TO THE FRYER.

>> No.3932064
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3932064

>>3932057
>Tweeter

>> No.3932067
File: 21 KB, 400x266, 129557538766.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3932067

>>3932027
>>3932027
University of Sydney mate.

>> No.3932072

>>3932063

>Undergrad rage

Cute. Keep pretending you understand academia, sweetheart.

>> No.3932077

>>3932044
i'm a senior, at a massive university where the smallest classes have 15 people, the average class has 35 people, and the average freshman lecture course has anywhere from 100-500 students

lets say you gave an exam (this would be the equivalent of a final exam) once every month or two months (depending on the popularity of that topic). this exam would service everyone in the school taking that subject. does this really sound like it'd be that much more work than having a professor (or multiple professors, if there are multiple times for a single subject available in a semester) give multiple lectures a week and come up with so many tests / quizzes / homeworks (if they bother to grade them) as is currently done?

>> No.3932082

>>3932057
> Some of the best lecturers I've had used chalk and blackboard. Yet you seem to be of the opinion that "efficient" instruction methods require Tweeter and Facebook and other worthless shit that doesn't contribute to anything. Explain yourself.

I already explained myself, but you're too dense to catch on. Should I use smaller words?

Your lecture can just be RECORDED ONTO VIDEO. How often does Physics chance so that lecturers have to make DIFFERENT lectures each year? THEY FUCKING DON'T. The entirety of lecturing can be put on disk and pulled out by each student as their schedule requires.

Like I implied before, you education-mafia FUCKERS seem to love information technology, until it comes to OBSOLETING YOUR JOBS. And then you balk, refusing to change as the public needs you to change.

Well, the coming Student Rebellion is going to be totally brutal for your class of person. You're gonna be out of a fucking job and you'll NEVER get back in. Back to the fucking fryer for you!

>> No.3932084

>>3932077

Well, yes. The primary role of professors is to publish papers. We want to minimise the amount of time they waste marking undergrad dribble.

>> No.3932091

>>3932072
fuck yeah, i'm an undergrad and i'm pissed that i'm wasting my time and money doing this bullshit, when what's being done can be done sooooo much more efficiently. if grad schools different, fine, great, don't change it. but don't be a douche and pretend the systems fine as it is (or are you actually that naive?)

>> No.3932095

>>3932084
but it's ok to waste their time by having them give lectures, when better lectures have already been given by better educators and have been recorded?

>> No.3932097

>>3932082
>Well, the coming Student Rebellion is going to be totally brutal for your class of person
Oh dear, I'm quaking in my boots. I'm sure this new group of snotnoses has what it takes to dislodge the entirety of academia and replace it with a magic system based on Youtube, Reddit, and unicorn piss.

With every post you make, I feel more and more certain that you have never set foot in a college classroom, or at least have zero understanding of the dynamics of a proper university setting.

>> No.3932099

>>3932084
No, the professors would write the tests and put them into the printable database.
The post-grads would mark the undergrad's papers, just like they normally do.

>> No.3932101

>>3932095

They still need to write and grade the exams, which could well take more time if they have to constantly consult with the video material to see what the hell the git from the other university was rambling on. Because that will be their stance on it: where you think, "OH WOW THIS GUY IS SO SAMRT" they would think, "Why on Earth is this goit using round bracket matrices? I can't read this shit.".

>>3932091

Half of you drop out of first year. You're dumbasses, and until you prove that you can count to ten and known your ABC's your opinions amount to shit all.

>> No.3932105

>>3932082

>How often does Physics chance so that lecturers have to make DIFFERENT lectures each year?

Well, I don't know what abyssal institution you go to but we update our content every year to keep pace with science.

>> No.3932112

>>3932101
>Half of you drop out of first year.
Oh I wonder why? Probably because they all fail because they are pushed at a rate they are not used to, and so fail tests they cannot resit.

>> No.3932113

>>3932097
> Oh dear, I'm quaking in my boots.

Rational men prepare for change instead of being like you and getting run over by it.

> I'm sure this new group of snotnoses has what it takes to dislodge the entirety of academia and replace it with a magic system based on Youtube, Reddit, and unicorn piss.

Tenure is essentially gone now. We're coming for the rest of it soon enough, one way or another.

> With every post you make, I feel more and more certain that you have never set foot in a college classroom, or at least have zero understanding of the dynamics of a proper university setting.

You'd be wrong, which is the precise problem of your class of person. You rely on systems to support you, not actual results. You speak as a system beneficiary and as such, you automatically lost credibility in this discussion.

You're dismissed.

>> No.3932115

>>3932101
they won't have to do jack shit- they'll get you graduate level jerkoffs to grade it like they normally do, and will have that much more time to spend on their useless research

and yeah, i agree, a lot of undergrads are fucking dumbasses. but what are you doing that makes your opinion so valid?

>> No.3932117

>>3932099

Grad students mark tests and assignments. Exams are marked by the professor that taught the course because they are the only ones who know precisely what material they taught and whether the student exhibits sufficient knowledge of it.

>> No.3932120

>>3932112

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

>> No.3932129

>>3932105
> Well, I don't know what abyssal institution you go to but we update our content every year to keep pace with science.

Again, the BASICS OF PHYSICS just don't change. So these lectures are pretty much the same ones that Feynman was giving decades ago.

And any "updating" for micro-sized new discoveries can just be done by a small committee and then the results PUSHED OUT TO UNIVERSITIES LIKE FUCKING SOFTWARE UPDATES ARE DONE ROUTINELY.

You education-mafia FUCKS keep pretending that you're above info-tech efficiencies. That's BULLSHIT. You're only trying to STOP info-tech from bringing savings and services to the general public (just like with the doctors and lawyers). You're a fucking MAFIA (just like with the doctors and lawyers).

>> No.3932130

>>3932105
yeah, because the content of the majority of undergrad courses changes dramatically from year to year. for someone who's opinions amount to so much more than shit all, you sure are stupid.

>> No.3932133

>>3932115

>useless research

That's the whole point of a university. If you want to learn, you can do so in your own time, right? You just pointed out how easy it is. Why are you enrolled if you don't want research experience?

>> No.3932134

>>3932117
lol sure, that's really fail-safe, no other way will work

>> No.3932136

>>3932129

>Conspiracies everywhere

What makes you think a centralised university system won't go the way of your secondary education.

>> No.3932138

>>3932133
because most employers want to see a degree. do those employers give a flying fuck about research? no. they want to see that you can stomache four years of mundane bullshit, because that's what you'll have to endure to work for them. though maybe you're not aware of this, being the academic that you are

>> No.3932139

>>3932120
It would be an interesting system if you paid fees to sit tests instead of paying to learn. You would only fail and get a bad mark if you did badly in tests, but if you pass the test you would actually know the content. Universities would charge separately for the use of their Help Center, charged every month like a gym membership. I am sure there would be a lot less failures, and a lot less students too. Those undergrad drop outs wouldn't even register on the radar of academia as they wouldn't even sit any tests unless they were serious about it.

>> No.3932143

I always feel lectures are a waste of time. They just read from the book. Personally it's a waste of my time, I could just be reading that information myself, instead of passively listening. I also am surprised universities haven't turned their books into ebooks.

>> No.3932149

>>3932143
lol yeah don't get me started on that shit, fucking pearson and all these other cocksucking companies charging 200 bucks for some POS book. i've only bought 3 textbooks in my academic career

>> No.3932150

>>3932139
cont.
This way first years could pay their monthly membership, and drift between different courses to get an idea of what they actually like before committing to sitting tests and actually enrolling in a course.

>> No.3932151

>>3932138

Well then it works out, right? You don't care about science. You only want money. So you have to spend some to make some.

>> No.3932152

>>3932139
> I am sure there would be a lot less failures, and a lot less students too.

Good idea, but since the system runs on money, hence on lending-based enrollment, then your idea is a non-starter.

The only thing that will fix this fucked-up uneducation system is a collapse in enrollment. Vast student debts will drive that, but will require the maximum student agony.

Welcome to the clusterfuck called Western Civilization. (Ghandi said it best.)

>> No.3932159

>>3932151
the money i'm spending is being wasted, along with the time i'm investing, which is why i'm pissed. and you still haven't told everyone what you do that makes your opinions so much more valid than us lowly undergrads

>> No.3932164

>>3932113
>Rational men prepare for change instead of being like you and getting run over by it.
The only change that's coming is an increased demand for higher education driven by an economy that increasingly demands college education for basic jobs. The only ones who will get "run over" are those that fight the system, like they always have. There's a reason that the unemployment rate for non-graduates is twice what it is for grads- in fact, the market for intelligent people has actually been fairly stable, which is something you've probably missed out on.
>Tenure is essentially gone now.
Actually, it hasn't really changed at all as far as I can tell, so I think your conclusion is anally rather than factually based.
>We're coming for the rest of it soon enough, one way or another.
By doing what? Pretending that ITT Tech and the University of Phoenix are "colleges?"
>You rely on systems to support you, not actual results.
This presupposes the conclusion that academics do no useful work outside of giving lectures to whoever happened to cough up the money to attend classes that semester. That is not the case, as anyone familiar with academia or the general advancement of knowledge could attest. But since you are familiar with neither of those things, your post exists, and is symptomatic of the shameless arrogance thus spewed into the world by armchair revolutionaries.
>You speak as a system beneficiary
In fact, I am not, which only makes your naked pseudo-intellectuality and petty threats all the more amusing. 50 years from now, when the next generation of historians of education sits down to write the book on the progression of the field in the 21st century (and it will be a book, not a Youtube video), it will not mention the brutal teen angst that you have so carelessly subjected us to this evening.

>> No.3932165

>>3932143
> I also am surprised universities haven't turned their books into ebooks.

Why is that surprising? They are money ogres. They have banks streaming money though pipes called "students".

True, some advances have been made against the book-rape system since I was in university. But in terms of INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, they are still far behind. It's all about the CASH.

Like I said before, it's not like fucking PHYSICS and CALCULUS are really any different over the decades. F equals fucking ma in 1940 is still F equals fucking ma now. Such information is particularly generalized, so universities should have long settled on standard and public-domain text books. BUT OH NO, the book mafia wouldn't ever allow that.

>> No.3932166

>>3932159

It's not being wasted. You're paying for a degree, and you will get one if you pass your papers.

>> No.3932172

>>3932152
it is a starter and would make money, if you read the 'cont' post
membership is paid monthly, so there would be heaps of 'personal trainers' like the gym industry. postgrads would sell memberships and get a commission from the sale. People would be jumping in and out of universities like no tomorrow, but it would still be generating a fucktonne of money, and a fucktonne of administrative work (more jobs).

>> No.3932175

>>3932164
> The only change that's coming is an increased demand for higher education driven by an economy that increasingly demands college education for basic jobs.

Sorry, charlie. The general economic collapse is beating that all to fuck. You're ending up with graduates who have fairly massive debts and no fucking jobs available to pay those off, much less keep these guys in a Western lifestyle. This is a huge fraud conducted by an education-mafia that's out of control.

The system can demand a college degree for a fry cook all it wants. Eventually the restaurant will just be burned down in a riot, since too many people will be unemployed. You're somehow crowing that that sort of system is a good thing. You're a fucking moron.

You DEFINITELY seem to be part of the education system, since you've bought into the propaganda so deeply. You imagine that everyone will come to you and pay you. Soon enough, the Student Rebellion will cost you your own job, and then the fryer beckons. But don't worry; from your own assertions, you'll have the degree to qualify for running that fryer. Job security! LOL!

>> No.3932176

>>3932166
a lot of it is wasted because the resources being directly towards my education could be used much more efficiently. but that doesn't bother me too much, as it's the taxpayers money which is being wasted and not my own (thank you state university). what really burns my ass is the time- i could obtain that degree in much less time if i were allowed to pass these courses at my own pace, instead of having to take course X for 6 months before being able to take course Y for 6 months before being able to take course Z for 6 months. it's stupid and inefficient

i'm surprised that a man of science like you is clinging to our outdated education system so religiously

>> No.3932194

>>3932176

Oh no, I'm all for improving it. I just don't see how replacing humans with videos will help. Humans are social animals, and learn primarily by mimicry. We need smaller lecture rooms with more instructors and more group work, not a magic box. In your spare time you can use the magic box if you want, or you can use the textbook. The textbook is probably more useful as it gives you the formal statement of the theorems whereas in a lecture they will necessarily be abridged and hand wavy.

I'm just bemused with the fact that so many high school and first year kids are so bloody egotistical that they think they can solve all the world's problems when they obviously didn't put an ounce of mental energy into thinking their solutions through. There are no silver bullets. If you think you've found one, take a second to re-examine it. It's probably nickel.

>> No.3932215

>>3932194
allright fuck this, you're not paying attention to what's been proposed and re-explained to you numerous times, and it's late, so i'm going to go to sleep. you're either a troll, or you're one of those unfortunate types who's good at his niche element but fails at other important aspects of life. one of those aspects being reading comprehension. professors would be available to discuss things with students. video lectures would be just one of many learning tools. there would also be study groups, and professors available for one on one discussions with students. instead of wasting time with lectures, professors could actually have exchanges with students

enjoy grad school, or whatever the fuck you're doing. you haven't actually admitted what you're doing, so it's probably something that's amusing and is a complete waste of time. g'night

>> No.3932249

>>3932215

...But you ALREADY have videos. You already have study groups. You already have professors in their office for one on one sessions. You're just saying, let's have one less source.

>> No.3933757

.

>> No.3933824

Protip: watching a video just isn't the same as actually being in a class, unless you are comparing a class with 100+ people in it. You can't ask a video questions. Unless you pull a bunch of people together to watch a video with you, and discuss shit.

I go to a small university. The largest class I was ever in was a Physics I, non calc based. It had like 50 or so people in it. The ability to stop the lecturer, ask them questsions or for clarifications, and to possibly discuss stuff is incredibly valuable.

And, outside of intro classes, for my major I only ever had a maximum of like 18 people in a class.

>> No.3933848

>>3933824
you really think being able to stop a professor mid-lecture is worth paying for the mans salary, the brick and mortor, the administrative costs, etc?

also, the majority of people can't afford a private school like yours; they go to large universities where lecturers don't stop often to answer questions (and the questions are often inane)

>> No.3933853

I find old textbooks far easier to study from than the trendy modren textbooks with colour pictures everywhere and as for the lecturers, you need to be able to talk to them. At some point during your studies you will find it helpful to talk to your lecturer, you cannot do that with video lectures.

So I disagree with you OP
Old black and white textbooks with the bare minimum of diagrams and lectures works best.

>> No.3933867

>>3933853
i don't think you read OP's second post: there'd be professors and tutors available for those kinds of discussions

>> No.3933871

>>3933848

I never said I went to a private school broski.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_F._Austin_State_University

One of the cheapest universities to go to in my state. in fact. It just happens to be a university that focuses more on educating students than professor research. Professors still do some research, and do publish papers, but the focus is on helping students learn, and not having fuckhuge 100+ person classes. iirc, there are only like 1 or 2 places that could hold a lecture larger than 100 anyway.

>> No.3933895

>>3933871
wow that sounds nice, i wish my school was like that!

but still, would you say that everyone in your classes takes school seriously, and takes advantage of the opportunity to ask the professor questions? i'm assuming the answer is no, in which case, don't you agree that it would be nice if attendance wasn't mandatory and such people wouldn't be required to show up to class? then it could just be you and a group of other engaged students who could sit around with the professor and pick his brain

>> No.3933998

The thing that I find funny about this is that if anyone should be receptive to the idea of flowing with technology, as opposed to fighting change, it's academia.

Aren't universities supposed to be bastions for the free exchange of ideas full of open-minded and forward thinking people? If so, why can't they recognize a clearly better way of doing things?

We don't need to waste the time of our best and brightest anymore. We can have our PhD's doing more research and less undergraduate hand holding. We can have our student stand outs racing ahead at their own pace instead of being constrained by the slow pace of the average student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTFEUsudhfs

Here's a good example of how student-dictated pace of learning can not only allow gifted students to learn faster but also allow those who lag behind to catch up and actually surpass peers.

>> No.3934044

>>3933998
My biggest concern is that students might linger on one subject and not have enough time for others.

>> No.3934062

>>3934044
Not OP, but I don't see that as an issue whatsoever.

Why do you think it'd be a problem?

>> No.3934063

>>3933895

In lower level classes, most people don't. The more you get into upper level classes, the more people ask questions. I, as a TA, teach labs at the freshman level, and there are a lot of folks who don't take it seriously. But those kind of people get weeded out fairly fast.

But even if you aren't the one asking the question, someone else asking a question can get something explained in a different manner that will help you understand the topic at hand better.

Maybe my support of the current system is because of my university (small, public university focused on education more than research) and my major (Geology, hands on work means an awful lot). A guy standing next to a rock outcrop talking about it might be nice for the intro level stuff (and is. I show videos for profs sometimes when they cant make their intro lectures, and some of them do a good job of conveying basic stuff suitable for freshman level stuff), you NEED to spend time directly looking at stuff like that to truly understand stuff. Handling stuff, and being able to ask a knowledgeable person, or having a knowledgeable person ask you stuff to ensure that you understand means an incredible amount. Even in the lecture portion of the classes, which is less hands on, the visual aids and stuff the professors show just couldn't be matched by video. Like, a professor discussing ripple marks in rocks, drawing a picture on a board, then showing a specimen that exhibits it to the camera is much different than if you are actually there, and the prof hands the specimen around the class, where you can hold it, look at it from various angles, touch it, etc. Even if the specimen they might keep in the room might be too big to pass around, they can point it out, and you can then easily go check it out at your leisure after the class is over.

>> No.3934087

>>3934063
But... none of the things you mention are problems or issues whatsoever.

I get the feeling like the people who are against this are simply failing to understand how it works.

For your example, the professor gives everyone a video of his lecture, in which he goes over all the important topics. Students watch this lecture at home.

The students then come into class, and do hands-on work, based on the lecture they were given. They can ask questions and everything else.

>> No.3934117

just a few things

there are online universities, some are quite good some are awful, but i don't see why you have such a problem with people wanting things differently.

how would the tests be invigilated? i mean to be accredited they have to make sure you can't cheat how could this be done sensibly since you have not mentioned a campus.

and you can't do only continuous assessment, if too much emphasis is put on continuous assessment the course will not be accredited. if you cant recall even a years worth of information with months of revision time then you are wasting your time.

Laboratory sessions? a must for science.

and how do you expect to prepare people for research if they don't have any experience with researchers?

>> No.3934121
File: 100 KB, 551x507, 06ternary.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3934121

>>3934087

Why do the video then?

Another issue you run into with pre-recorded lectures, especially in my field, is that you miss out on the lecture discussion of new research or new discoveries related to the topics at hand. In math and physcis, and to a lesser extent chemistry and biology, most stuff is unchanging except at the highest levels of study. Geology, being a much less 'mature' field, stuff changes much faster. For example, in stratigraphy, we use the Dott (1964) classification for silicilastic rocks that contain mostly sand sized grains. However, someone might publish a paper outlining a different classification system AFTER the video was recorded that might be the new up and coming classification in industry or even in research.

Unless you are promoting the idea of re-recording the video every year, which to my experiences would be pointless, because all of our non-intro classes only have 1 section of the class taught each year.

I am willing to admit that in a larger school, like Penn State, or University of Texas Austin, or any of the big name public schools, the idea you are proposing might seem like a better idea. But from my point of view at a small public school, the current system seems to work fine for our needs.

>> No.3934124

Universities do need to embrace technology beyond powerpoint slides. Sadly their monopoly on degree awards means they're necessary whether they embrace it or not. Fucking fags

>> No.3934134

>>3934117
Still not the OP here, but each time someone comes out with criticisms about this, it all seems to stem from misunderstanding how it works.

The concept is not to eliminate physical schools.

It is to supplement and improve.

Instead of coming into class, going through a 2 hour lecture, then doing homework at home

You

Come into class, work on homework with peers and the teacher and ask questions for 2 hours, then go home and watch a lecture for tomorrow's class.

The OP's idea expands on this concept a little bit more, by having regular testing cycles and allowing students to carry on at their own pace.

So instead of a set classroom on X, you might have a study center, where everyone is at varying levels of understanding and there are multiple teachers able to give hands on advice and support.

When you feel ready to carry on to the next level, you take a test. If you aren't satisfied with the test results you can retake that test at a later date of your choosing. Alternatively, the institution has a regular testing schedule with tests taking place more frequently, but where students are not required to take the test unless they feel ready for it.

The whole point is to make teaching more efficient, to speed up the learning process and get you understanding concepts more quickly.

>> No.3934135

Stop being a dickwad. Entire undergard studies are mostly trivial. With textbooks you have access to more interesting information which wouldn't be available otherwise because of fucktards like OP wouldn't understand it, so it's thrown away from curriculum.
And you'd have to pay for someone to make videos anyway.

>> No.3934149

>>3934121
>Why do the video then?

...you really aren't grasping this.

You do the video so that the instructor has more time to do the important things in teaching - helping students through portions of the material they are having difficulty understanding.

In addition, a video lecture has several benefits that an in-person lecture doesn't. You can pause for dinner, or a break, you can rewind to cover a part you didn't really catch over again, you can fast forward over portions you know you understand.

You lose out on asking questions during the lecture, yes. But you'll be in class tomorrow - there's no reason you can't have those discussions then. There's no reason the instructor can't talk about the latest breakthroughs.

You keep citing issues that don't actually exist, in other words.

>> No.3934162

This would be nice, but I'd still like textbooks to be available because I enjoy reading them. If they aren't needed for school, maybe they'll be less rushed, and hopefully less expensive due to not having guaranteed sales from students. Lecturing is fine, but I'm terrible at following along with it reliably.

>> No.3934179

the opposite end of the media spectrum can be just as bad-- in my English class we're required to have a subscription to a proprietary on-line service-- our papers will not be accepted in e-mails or in paper form alone, if we want a grade we have to pay for this
it's $44 and change for a subscription the length of the semester and buying a new copy of the required textbook (funny how things loop around, eh?) gets you a few free months, and I happen to have financial aid that pays for my books so I got it free, but that doesn't stop it from being patently ridiculous
the best justification she gave was that she also makes use of copyrighted materials-- which is to say, text-- on there; when you join in any way you have to agree to not distribute it, not even in print form, which is just idiotic, what kind of academic provider doesn't allow copies?
I pressed the teacher on it the first day I was there and stopped a little short of saying it was ridiculous or stupid or asking if knew someone that worked for them or she got any money from them-- I did say it was unfair, especially to the technically unsavvy-- on top of everything else, there are a lot of steps to go through to get to the content and the assignment submission form, getting less and less intuitive as you go
thanks for reminding me about it
as for textbooks, they don't require any knowledge of technology or a source of electricity, so it makes sense to still have them

>> No.3934205

>>3934134
>Come into class, work on homework with peers and the teacher and ask questions for 2 hours, then go home and watch a lecture for tomorrow's class.

as opposed to going to a lecture you can ask questions in, then doing the homework at home and asking questions later. how is this different in terms of efficiency?
how would you get tutors to be versed in all courses?

you really can't hold an accredited exam every couple months and you need large high stakes tests so you are actually put under pressure. and you can't just let people retake any time they want, a degree isn't a certificate of endurance its one of skill. anyone could pass a degree with enough time and get any grade they want.

>> No.3934215

>>3934205
>as opposed to going to a lecture you can ask questions in, then doing the homework at home and asking questions later. how is this different in terms of efficiency?

When are you stuck on something? Is it when you're paying attention (or not) to the lecture? Or when you're working on homework and come across a question you're struggling with understanding?

The time when we need the instructor most, is the time when we don't have them available.

These concepts are pretty easy to understand, you're just being blindly stubborn about it.

>> No.3934227

>>3934149
> You do the video so that the instructor has more time
but courses are updated so they would have to record them anyway.

>a video lecture has several benefits that an in-person lecture doesn't.
>You can pause for dinner, or a break
lectures are an hour long

>you can rewind to cover a part you didn't really catch over again
you can ask them to repeat themselves or explain it differently
>you can fast forward over portions you know you understand.
that's not a benefit.

>> No.3934256

>>3934215
>When are you stuck on something? Is it when you're paying attention (or not) to the lecture? Or when you're working on homework and come across a question you're struggling with understanding?

both, that's why you can ask questions during both in a university. supervisions, tutorials, peer groups or go find a lecturer/ask in the next lecture.
you're removing clarification from the lectures and claiming that its insignificant. questions are meant to be doable, lectures have no such guarantee.

>> No.3934261

>>3934227
By this point, you're pretty much just saying "no it can't work" to absolutely anything that is different from how things currently work.

You don't give arguments for why it can't work, just that it can't. This is pretty much pointless, you have clearly already decided that the current system is the only effective and workable system and anything else is hogwash.

>> No.3934287

>>3932082
I sure hope you don't hope this happens

>> No.3934292

>>3934261
>You don't give arguments for why it can't work, just that it can't.
that's not a rebuttal of any of my points. you gave advantages i pointed out that to be any use you would need contact time which would be equivalent to the current system. and i showed your advantages were nonsense.

you are the one on the vendetta to disassemble the current system, well guess what, there are already online universities and i'll bet there will be universities with online lectures.

>> No.3934302

>>3931878
>Ever since I have discovered video learning, my university experience is becoming more and more cynical.
You have discovered you are incapable of reading a textbook and making any sense of it. This is probably because high school doesn't prepare you to actually learn anything critically and on your own.

>> No.3934307

>>3934205

This fellow has a very good point.

Part of the value of a college courses, from the point of view of a future employer, is that it proves that you can deal with the stresses of showing up every day, and completing the work in a timely manner. If you can't learn it in the time allotted, you don't deserve an A. If you can complete it faster, good for you. You can spend your days dicking around on the internet instead of spending your time working. Honestly, the biggest part of college isn't actually learning stuff, its to prove to future employers that you can deal with the stresses of only getting once chance, and having deadlines. Even in science and engineering, you WILL get on the job training. Geologists end up spending the first year or two working in the petroleum industry in what is essentially a high end training course. Even after getting an M.S. My brother is an electronics engineer. He says 90% of the stuff he had to take classes for in school was worthless and he has never used it in his daily work.

Hell, most classes these days are fucking easy compared to 30 years ago. The only professor in my department who still teaches in an 'old school' style, lots of people fail his classes every year. He forces you to work hard for the class, and forces people to learn. He will pick people out individually and grill them with questions he knows they probably don't know the answer to, but should.

You might be able to restructure the university system to some degree, but do remember its not all about making education easier. Its about giving you further preparation to dealing with the bullshitery of the real world, where you will be managed inefficiently by someone who is less intelligent than you who acts like they aren't. You learn to deal with deadlines and consequences of not being able to get your shit in line.

>> No.3934324

>>3934307
>The only professor in my department who still teaches in an 'old school' style, lots of people fail his classes every year.
Reminds me of a prof I had. The content in his classes were the best and you could tell he knew his shit inside out. Only thing he was kind of monotonous (boring you could say) so students hated his lectures

>> No.3934349

>>3932101
some of the world's smartest people, and a lot of the most productive and useful people, never finished college, never went, or even never finished high school
a higher education is a very valuable experience in every sense of the word but it isn't some dividing line separating who deserves respect for their opinions and who doesn't

>> No.3934382

>>3934349
yes but they achieved something other than dropping out

>> No.3934470
File: 979 KB, 1301x4399, SPORTS TRUE NAMES.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3934470

>this whole fucking thread
There is only one reason why video lectures are good.

It allows the VERY FEW GOOD TEACHERS to be able to TEACH ALL THE STUDENTS AT ONCE.

That's all. It doesn't need to be replacing anything, it simply needs to be accepted into the educational academia.

pic not related, but hilariously true

>> No.3934504
File: 550 KB, 1301x4399, sports.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3934504

>>3934470
added one for you.

>> No.3934509

Do any one have some tips of good sites for content, and or access to certain sites?
i had a looked at http://educator.com/ and it sounded interesting, but kinda pricey, does any one know of a way of recording such videos that they use on educator.com?

>> No.3934513

>>3934509
You mean pirating your education?

Dunno. What about Khan academy?

>> No.3934519
File: 34 KB, 475x363, howabout.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3934519

>>3934504
>1%
nope.

>> No.3934523

>>3934519
What would you call it?

>> No.3934534

>>3934513
i dunno, maybe recording what i have watched while i bought a 6 month subscription...

>> No.3934536
File: 39 KB, 485x662, 1733676-u_mad_bro_super1[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3934536

>>3934134
That mostly answers the question I was thinking about. I'm sorry your college doesn't have study/tutoring/help centers for math and writing and other stuff. It so happens mine does. It's also a community college.

>> No.3934540

>>3934523
I have no wit, I'm just good at complaining about things.

>> No.3935014

>>3931885
engineering/maths i understand,

but biology, psychology etc, students ask allot of questions that needs to be answered in class, however i agree thaqt video lectures should be implemented in lots of classes, and allot of them do....

>> No.3935066

Text books aren't bad for learning. It is not the book's fault if you are to stupid to understand them.