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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3885071 No.3885071 [Reply] [Original]

“When you criticize capitalism, don’t allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over.”

– Slavoj Zizek at Occupy Wall Street, October 9th, 2011

What should the current system be replaced with?

>> No.3885085

Tribal War Lords

>> No.3885095

>>3885071
Family tribes living off their own land

>> No.3885098

>>3885071
Glorious military-communism.

>> No.3885104

post apocalyptic setting with barter system and humans fighting for what little resources left.

we're moving fast towards that anyways.

>> No.3885116

Military Dictatorship

>> No.3885140

>>3885085
this. It's the only alternative our psyche is adapted to deal with.

>> No.3885156

anarchosyndicalism

>> No.3885163

Socialcyberneering...vote for the Venus Project it's the only best option...

>> No.3885164

Free market with strong local government participation.

>> No.3885170

Anything beats democracy. Worst idea ever.

>> No.3885172

>>3885071
>–
>not using ~

tilde motherfucker. i fucking love that little bastard

>> No.3885176

>>3885170
representative democracy =! statism

>> No.3885182

Technocracy, or just not let kids complain about no money for their hobby degrees.

>> No.3885196

>implying giving billions of dollars to reckless investment firms is capitalism
Seriously im dissapoint, zizek.

>> No.3885199

>>3885182
Yeah effectively we need to balance central/regional and local control as well as technical expertise with fair representation and accountability.

I don't have many answers but I do know this. The solution won't come from /sci/ or these protests.

>> No.3885205

>>3885196
>implying those firms wouldn't have behaved the exact same way had the bailout not been forthcoming

>> No.3885225
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3885225

>>3885205
>implying we can know that now anyway

>> No.3885228
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3885228

>>3885199
Some kind of a weighted voting system seems most appropriate - the only thing is, I don't see any system that adopts that as being impartial and very resistant to corruption.

As an off-hand, silly example... Economists should have a weighted vote (IE, their vote counts more than everyman's) on economic issues, physicists should have a vote on physics matters, military strategists and generals should have more of a vote on military foreign policy...

On the surface, it works, but it quickly breaks down when you analyze internal bias, and realize what lengths people in power will go to to maintain control/power/status quo.

Still, as a biochem/CS/soon-to-be-engineering fag, I think I deserve a little bit more of an influence on those particular topics, but I also think I really shouldn't be paid attention to on areas outside my realm of understanding.

In other words, when I know shit, I know shit. When I don't know shit, I don't know shit. The only thing I think I'm "superior" in, is my ability to know that there are things I don't know shit about, and understand I should either study them, or shut the fuck up. (Inb4 you clearly don't understand x-cratic system, so shut the fuck up about it)

>> No.3885232

One in which the equivalency of money and political power is not only transparent but also well established and utilized for the benefit of the whole.

Capitalists often assume that business plays by the rules-- it doesn't. Power warps the rules in its favor. Power perverts the nature of democracy such that the people (either wittingly or not) no longer represent their own views.

Capitalists fail to realize that capital is not just raw materials, cash piles or stocks. It's also power. I can exchange any one of these things for votes or lawyers or politicians.

Capital is but one brand of power, and all types of it are exchangeable.

>> No.3885241

Internet direct democracy.

>> No.3885243
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3885243

>the majority is right because it's the majority
>what is right is what majority thinks it is

>> No.3885248

>>3885228

technocracy?

you've got a lot of explaining to do for the millions of people with the ingrained principles regarding democracy.

>> No.3885251
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3885251

Everywhere's is problemzzzz and we can't has many moneyz.

I'm sorry, I was a supporter but then I read the OWS demands. These guys never heard of a economy.

>> No.3885257

>>3885071
>preposition at the end of a sentence
Your argument is invalid.

>> No.3885259
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3885259

>>3885251

>I'm kind of hungry, but my roommate has guests over, so if I go into the kitchen I'm going to have to introduce myself

This is a serious problem for hikikomori

>> No.3885268
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3885268

>american banks can't into geographical diversification due to regulation laws
>federal state create nearly public bank that can have money cheaper than other banks
>lobbies enforce policy to allow people than can't pay a loan to have a loan
>it causes bubble which explode
>blame libertarian capitalism

>> No.3885275

>>3885243
well tbh there is no inherent right or wrong on moral issues. all you can do is accept and comply with the time and people who live among, or else be shot.

>> No.3885281

>>3885257
English isn't latin, faggot. you CAN end a sentence with a preposition

>> No.3885289

>>3885281

I can can put two identical verbs in a row; that doesn't make it grammatically correct to do so.

>> No.3885291

>>3885268
> banks are being forced to lend money
If you're not saying this, then you really have no point. If you are, then, citation definitely fucking needed.

>> No.3885295

>>3885251
it's all relative.

when people complain about something they are not comparing their complaint with the complaints of all others. That is the fallacy on which that joke picture depends

>> No.3885301

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

>> No.3885302
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3885302

>>3885289

>> No.3885307

>make resources property of all people
>resources used to maximize prosperity of a society
>regulate economy, prevent too much influence of companies or certain people

>feels liek communism but isnt
>no one is going to be in favor of this
>capitalism breaks down, this is what coming, toldya

>> No.3885308

Resource based economy is the only logical point at this point in human evolution.

>> No.3885319

>>3885291
http://www.federalreserve.gov/bankinforeg/reglisting.htm
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/community/community/index.html
http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/history.htm

>> No.3885335

>>3885308
what economy isn't based on resources?

>> No.3885347

>>3885308

RBE - how to speak a lot but tell almost nothing.

>> No.3885349

>implying democracy is good either
Fucking plebs getting brainwashed into thinking America was founded on democracy instead of republicanism. Fuck your mob rule.

>> No.3885353

>>3885319
> implying that tl;dr will in fact suggest that banks are forced to give loans
It won't.

>> No.3885377

>>3885349
Republicanism is a form of democracy. I mean, it must be. It's a a head of state chosen by election since by definition it's not a monarchy.

>> No.3885379

>>3885071
How about we replace our current system with capitalism.

>> No.3885388

Good ideas:
Support those who are having a rough time (sick/homeless).
Free education.
Bad ideas:
A company can donate to politicians.
The police force is financially supported directly by a company.

>> No.3885399

>>3885377
But the top officials are chosen by the electoral college because they didn't want a stupid majority vote. Also, the philosophy is based on the rule of law supreme over people which is the point of a constitution and bill of rights etc. These radical left faggots would sooner do a simple majority for any problem ever.

>> No.3885421

>>3885071

> capitalism
> the u.s.

Pick one.

>> No.3885451

>>3885421
The United States is currently practicing capitalism. Just not industrial capitalism. We have a type of financial and monopoly capitalism right now.

>> No.3885462

>>3885399
Which is a valid and positive *CONCEPT*, the execution becomes an idiotic popularity contest, in which people lie, and hold idiotic ideals above others, to get elected into office, and then people act surprised when they are incompetent in running the country and holding the office.

This is an inherent flaw in a representative democracy. Perhaps we could make a representative democracy in which we have positions like "Physics Senator", where people vote in someone who is exceptional in the realm of physics, and his vote counts for more in things that effect/are effected by physics, but only counts as a single vote for other topics. Same with any relevant topic?

Stupid idea in it's current incarnation, maybe (or at least impractical) but I think that's the future of a successful representative democracy - we are too specialized in expertise(s) to truly elect "general" people for everything.

>> No.3885467

I think our only solution is to dispense with ideology and move into a post-ideological age.

I don't want to be one these people who claims the free market is evil and we should all live in a communitarian society. at the same time i don't think we can afford to place all our hopes of free market individualism. Creating an anarchic situation where everyone is free to build, lend, and grow what they likeis dangerous as it's too unpredictable. We can never be sure if problems are going to be solved, what problems will arise and among this the idea that it might all be irreversible scares the shit out of us (so much much that we place all emphasis on central monopolistic control)

When you think about it communists and capitalists essentially want the same thing. a situation where resources collaboratively. It's statism and the regulations enforced that is the problem. Leftists get mixed up frequently thinking they oppose the capitalists when really they should oppose the state.

I think you certainly some form of planning but it needs to be collaborative and not centralised. it needs to be localised and not regional (state/town or constituency level over federal/national or continental). I think this has a better chance of keeping in harmony with otherwise free market system.

>> No.3885483

Scientifically, figures such as Zizek and Chomsky are not logical humanists, an actual logical humanist could not make the fundamental errors they make, they are more like theologists, they study the subjective tastes of a section of society without ever needing to prove their ideas objectively or make original inferences. It does not take a genius to understand the concept of a dynamic equilibrium yet this critical model needed to prevent confusion in understanding causality in complex systems such as society is never mentioned once. I wouldn't be suprised if Chomsky never said "structural functionalism" once in his many many many tomes upon tomes of publications, articles and books.

It reminds me of this.
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/824-postmodernism-disrobed

>> No.3885485

Hey libertarianfag, is capitalism truly what free markets are about? Isn't capitalism more about few people holding massive amounts of capital and gaining rent from it without producing anything themselves?

>> No.3885517

>>3885353
Then you should read more.
Banks reguled by CRA made about 50% of subprimes loans, with the oversight of the State.
The others were sure that the State GSE would bought it if they failed because "Fuck this shit, we're banks. We're too big too fail".
FED allowed Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae to hide the data about the subprimes loans. That's why everybody were caught by surprise.
And after 9/11, the FED policy (lowering the interest rate, 11 times) made credit much more easy. Then they raised it 17 times.

>> No.3885527

>>3885517
I'm sorry, were you trying to support the notion that the federal government compelled private banks to give loans? Because you didn't.

>> No.3885535

>bunch of people wanting to change a bunch of things without even getting most of the people that would be affected by those things to vote on something that would at least help decide what would happen.

>> No.3885547

>>3885462
the popularity contest that emerges isn't really inherent to the system. it's inherent to all of human nature and would be present under any system of governance. It's something we need to move beyond as a culture, not with politics.

And as for the technocratic viewpoint. It seems nice. Trouble arises if that physicist chooses to let his decisions be influenced by more than just his area of expertise - even in those areas where his vote counts for more.

while i agree we should have no more respect for technical expertise, technocracy isn't the answer. Some more collaborative for of governance (not government) is.

>> No.3885554

>>3885451

Capitalism is a free market. A free market lacks state control. The U.S. has state control. Therefore, the U.S. is not capitalism.

>>3885527

Compelled is a soft word in this case. In reality they used mafia tactics to force loans.

>> No.3885555

>>3885527
They backed toxic assets, there is a direct causal link between the federal government and the credit crunch. Either you fail to understand a simple argument or you can't admit the government is capable of making a mistake for whatever reason.

>> No.3885564

>>3885467

Honestly this kind of black and white thinking greatly troubles me. Why do so many people constantly assume that we must be either entirely capitalist or communist?

What we are experiencing is not the end of capitalism. It is a further refinement of it. It is a reminder that consolidation of power in any industry (in this case finance) is harmful to the system because it relies on a competitive market.

It is simply a matter of painstakingly resolving which matters the government must regulate and which it must not. No need to bring up the capitalist/communist dichotomy.

>> No.3885566

>>3885517
Credit was 'easy' since Alan Greenspan in 1987. We papered over the correction of the first bubble by inflating another. What we have today isn't a housing bubble that is unwinding it is the combined correction of the S&L bubble, tech bubble and housing credit bubble all combined.

It wasn't the fact that the Fed allowed certain banks to hide those subprimes that made this bubble that much more worse. It was the fact that regulation was nullified that stopped banks from counting those sub prime loans as part of their capital requirements. So these banks could lever up using these shit-backed securities derivatives and use it to buy more shit-backed securities derivatives to the moon. It became a game of hot potato where each bank was trying to get these fuckers off their books and into some poor fucker's pension or 401k before housing prices dropped even a penny.

All the CDS didn't help the situation either.

>> No.3885567

>>3885554
>Capitalism is a free market.

wrong

see
>>3885485

>> No.3885574

hey Liberty, where do you go to uni?

>> No.3885578

>>3885554
what you say is capitalism is actually anarchism.

anarchism is actually a pretty good idea. im not sure id be willing to try it but i'll fap over it

>> No.3885593

>>3885554
A free market is impossible to achieve. The more money someone makes the more money that person controls. Eventually those people will conspire to apply their combined money leverage in ways that allow them to control more money and thus power than anyone else in the system. Then they keep doing this.

Free market is impossible and that is why it has never existed on this planet.

>> No.3885600

>>3885566
>It was the fact that regulation was nullified
But that's wrong. There is a shitload of regulation. The main problem is : what regulation are we talking about ? Regulating markets is not inherently good or bad. If you do it when necessary, about the useful things.
Which is, sadly, not the case.

>> No.3885603

> October
> still responding to Liberty
how have you guys not learned this yet

>> No.3885605

>>3885574

I graduated several years ago.

>>3885485

Capitalism has nothing to do with emotional silly arguments about concentration of wealth. Absolutely nothing.


>>3885578

No, anarchism is state control. There are simply more states.

>> No.3885612

>>3885605
>anarchism is state control
>anarchism
>state

Worse than EK.

>> No.3885615

>>3885605
>capitalism has nothing to do with capital

what

>> No.3885618

>>3885605
>There are simply more states.

yeah a number of states which is equal to the population of the planet. Free market.

free market warps into capitalism when someone accumulates a monopoly on power and resources

>> No.3885622

OK Liberty confirmed for retarded ideologue. Forever ignored.

>> No.3885624

>>3885612
It's about the definition of State. You guys obviously don't have the same. Discuss about it.

>> No.3885634

>>3885615

Capital is the ability to perform a service or make a product. In this case, EVERY SINGLE PERSON owns capital.

>>3885612

A state being any person or group of people that regulate and punish without consent.

>>3885618

Monopolies, save for natural monopolies, are born from the state. The state creates them with various barriers of entry, like regulations and general theft of labor (taxes).

>> No.3885657

>>3885634
regulation in't the problem. Natural monopolies are.

>> No.3885662

>>3885600
Remember that legislation we put in place after the great depression to stop another depression caused by banks speculation getting out of control?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

Look what we have here?

The repeal enabled commercial lenders such as Citigroup, which was in 1999 the largest U.S. bank by assets, to underwrite and trade instruments such as mortgage-backed securities and collateralized debt obligations and establish so-called structured investment vehicles, or SIVs, that bought those securities.[20]

Remember how we limited the type of speculation that could happen on the commodities futures markets to stop huge funds from manipulating them for profit at the expensive of practically every other consumer on the planet?

We repealed that too and made a law to make sure it was completely allowed.

Man Bush sure got that fucking thing through congress quickly after he entered office. Don't worry. I am sure it had nothing to do with his coming war and his need to manipulate oil and food prices to support it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000

Should we discuss other more subtle laws that were abandoned in 1987 - 2004 that allowed this shit to happen? How about the 800 billion dollars that was laundered through Tyco Corp to build a high speed fiber to Asia so we could outsource every job that was going to be destroyed in America after these bubbles collapsed? That happened in 1999 and later George Bush and Clinton administration was heavily involved.

Should we discuss every single step that was taken from 1999 - 2001 to debase the securities market by the Clinton and Bush administrations? I have every fucking detail in my head.

It was corrupt law makers that allowed this shit to happen. It was the fact that people like Hank Paulsen was the CEO of the biggest fraud bank in the world one year and the secretary of the treasury the next.

>> No.3885663

>>3885527
Read the things post here. >>3885319

You can't say "Citation needed" and "your citation = tldr" then try to continue the discussion.

The government strongly encourage banks to provide loans to virtually anyone who requested them to spread The American Dream®

>> No.3885665

>>3885657
you responding to Liberty is the problem

>> No.3885667

>>3885634
>without consent.


what gives them consent? i thought you believed rights don't exist.

>> No.3885689

>>3885667

> rights
> consent

What?

>> No.3885696

>>3885689
having consent is having the right to do something

>> No.3885698

>>3885663
Had to keep the people happy while the final stage was put in place. What better way to keep everyone fat, happy and ignorant then free money?

>> No.3885701

>>3885663
Oh sheesh. The mere existence of legal banking encourages lending.

The function of any bank is to make money for investors. If banks thought the risk was too high, then the banks *should* *not* *have* *made* *the* *loans*.

That they did anyway suggests that they were wildly irresponsible. You do not need to suggest anything about the irresponsibility or lack thereof of the government to conclude this, unless the government forced banks to give loans. It didn't.

The government encouraged banks to make housing loans---so what? Seriously. Lay it out. So. What? The poor bankers were just wringing their hands, "Gosh, I don't want to be irresponsible with my clients' money, but what else can I do?" Bullshit. You know it is bullshit.

>> No.3885710

>>3885701
No you don't understand what happened. It is the WAY that the government and Federal Reserve encouraged those loans that created a problem. The mother fuck of all huge problems.

>> No.3885713

>>3885696

Not in the slightest.

>>3885701

Forced.

>> No.3885719

>>3885713
I like the part where you elaborate.

Liberty confirmed for being too stupid to discuss things

>> No.3885720

>>3885701

>You do not need to suggest anything about the irresponsibility or lack thereof of the government to conclude this, unless the government forced banks to give loans. It didn't.

Not American, so I don't know the specifics, but I thought that the American government did force the banks to loan money to more people. Wasn't there a set quota or something? Or am I just getting confused?

>> No.3885728

>>3885720

No.

The gubbmint threatened lawsuits, subpoenas, threats of claiming the banks were "raciss," etc to force them.

>> No.3885735

>>3885710
The government also encourages people to exercise and eat more vegetables. So what?

Banks are private entities capable of denying loan applications. They didn't have to introduce wild fee structures to make their bottom line grow fast, they didn't have to con people with variable-rate loans. All of this was totally voluntary on their part. And when it went to shit, it was their own fault, no one else's, because no one forced them to give loans. No one.

>> No.3885749

>>3885720
The government didn't need to force any bank to make loans after what they did. They simply made it so fucking profitable and took away 100% of the risk involved in those loans. That is a good way to get every lending bank on the planet to give out loans to unemployed Jamar, collect a fee and then outsource the fact that Jamar had no way of ever repaying even a penny of the principal on that loan.

The government took away the restrictions that would prevent this type of behavior and it is just common fucking sense that greed and short term profits would take over from there at the expense of long term economic stability.

>> No.3885757

>>3885735
That isn't what happened you ignorant fuck. Come back when you have an elementary understanding of exactly what happened from 1999-2007 to lead to where we are today.

>> No.3885777

>>3885749
making it more profitable =! force

banks retained the ability to refuse loans

>> No.3885785

>>3885749
> took away the risk
I don't think so. You noticed banks failed, right?

>> No.3885800

>>3885757
That's exactly what happened and no one has shown a single point to the contrary. It's easy to refute. Just show how private banks were forced to give loans.

I'll wait.

>> No.3885811

>>3885662
I agree that repealling the Glass-Steagall Act was maybe not a good idea. But that's still not bad in itself.
And what happened with Bush was not the fault of the deregulation. Just the fault of Bush's administration. Nobody here is defending what Bush did.

>> No.3885818

>>3885777
Listen carefully retard. Regulations were repealed in 1999 and 2000 that allowed LENDING banking like Wells Fargo, Fanny and Freddie, Wachovia and others to make a shit load of sub prime loans, bundle them into CDO investments and then sell them off to an investment bank like Goldman Sachs, Lehman or Bear Stearns. This wasn't allowed before.

Lets say I am Wells Fargo. I know that I can go find some random fucker on the street and give him a $250,000 mortgage loan, collect a fee for it and then take that loan and sell it off to someone else ( most of the time these bad loans ended up in pension funds and 401ks as 'investments ) and get all the money up front for the loan you just gave out. Do you really think I give a fuck whether or not Jamar can pay his loan back after I have sold that obligation off to an investment bank? Do you think I am going to encourage my employees to make shit loads of these loans to make money off the fees without ever having to worry about it being my problem when the loans go bad?

Now take the fact that regulation was removed that stopped certain types of bets in investment banks and other funds. Now these banks like Goldman Sachs can take out insurance policies called CDS on these sub prime mortgages and when those loans go bad I can collect money on them. The worse part? ANY BANK COULD TAKE OUT AN INSURANCE POLICY ON ANY FUCKING THING ON THE PLANET as long as the insurer ( A.I.G ) was willing to collect billions in fees for writing those CDS that they never expected to pay.

This deregulation made it possible for someone to walk up to the casino table who isn't playing the game and bet the dealer that on the next hand one of the players would lose. Fucking ludicrous.

I could go on and on about the fucked up shit that happened between 1999-2007 to get us here.

>> No.3885822

Both deregulation and a pervasive laissez faire approach to regulating financial institutions have been blamed for the financial crisis.[1].

A number of writers, particularly those affiliated with the Wall Street funded right wing think tank, the American Enterprise Institute, have claimed that to the contrary, the financial crisis was caused by too much regulation aimed at increasing home ownership rates for lower income people.[2] They've pointed to two policies in particular: The Community Reinvestment Act, which they claim pressured private banks to make risky loans, and HUD affordable housing goals for the Government Sponsored Enterprises ("GSEs"), Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which they claim caused the GSEs to purchase risky loans. [2]

However, claims that the CRA, the HUD affordable housing goals, and the GSEs caused the crisis have generally been rejected by empirical research that has analyzed these claims. [2] CRA loans accounted for a minority of subprime loans and were in fact less risky than subprime loans that were not mandated by the CRA. [2] The GSEs accounted for a minority of subprime mortgage backed securities purchases, and reduced their purchase activity when the worst loans were being made.[2] GSE loans were the best performing and had among the lowest default rates.[2] The worst loans were made when GSE market share and market power was at its lowest point and Wall Street banks were ascendant. [2]

>> No.3885824

>>3885785
And you may have noticed that they were backed up by the Federal State.
Now everything is back to "normal" and they'll start in a few years.

>> No.3885834
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3885834

>>3885777

You are right, not exactly force. Fraud. They distorted the hypo price signal, and that led to the economy fucking up. Also the FED was very complicit, first flooding the market with cheap currency and then suddenly contracting.

Government and FED incompetence.

>> No.3885853

>>3885834
>Government and FED incompetence

Not exactly. They knew exactly what they were doing and the consequences. They have goals that lie outside the realm of competent economic policy. They did what they did to accomplish an end and to this day those goals are coming closer and closer to being realized.

The 2008 economic collapse was no mistake of policy.

>> No.3885854

Hey boys. NOBODY HERE DENIES THE BANKERS ARE GREEDY ASSHOLES.

>> No.3885870

>>3885818

Exactly. The repeal of Glass-Steagall was a critical part of the enaction of a system that was designed to overheat until it crashed the entire economy. By bringing down that barrier, it was like bringing subcritical masses of plutonium together. Separate, there would have been heat generated, but each component could not capitalize on access to other components. The repeal allowed the entire system of foolish risk and fraud to work operate inside a massive, centralized clearinghouse (i.e. the entire banking system).

The banking system became a vast amplifier for all risk frauds. It became one of the largest financial leverage machines ever invented. And it crashed the world economy, hard. It's still crashing. It will still be crashing a decade from now.

>> No.3885881

>>3885818
Yes, deregulation was an absolutely horrible idea. I agree 100%. There were good reasons for commercial banking and investment banking to be separate. If anything, such regulations should have been strengthened.

>> No.3885888

>>3885870
I don't think the economy will still be crashing 10 years from now. I think the international banking cartel has purposefully engaged in policies to destroy our current economical systems around the world so they can be replaced by some other more totalitarian machination. The way it looks, we are very close to the attempted and probably popularly supported economic system of control the international bankers want for us.

Some people call it the 'One World Government' or the 'New World Order'. It doesn't really matter what people call it now because we can be guaranteed that by the time they are ready to push it out the door, people will be so poor and desperate around the world that it would be called 'Get fucked slaves' and as long as it promised everyone food, shelter and other necessities they have been deprived off, they will support it in all their ignorance.

>> No.3885903

>glass steagall repealed
>investment and commercial banking remain almost completely seperate in the private sector
>government proceeds to do exactly what glass steagall was supposed to prohibit
>private sector trusts the state and buys up re-packaged toxic assets
>government concludes the government should have more power over the economy because the free market was stupid enough to trust the government

Doesn't sound very scientific to me.

>> No.3885907

>>3885888

Is this just a hunch you have or is there some kind of evidence for this?

>> No.3885908

>>3885834
That is bullshit for exactly the same reasons that creating inflation to get out of a recession was bullshit (1970s). The government is not acting on private information. What it does is completely open to inspection. The Fed is not wholly transparent in every way, but its actions are well-understood and not themselves hidden from view.

In short, even if the Fed+government were being dumb, the market can respond easily by not playing along. Which, in fact, is why stagflation happened in the 70s.

Unless you assume from the outset that private firms are inherently rent-seeking, short-term profiteering, anti-market entities, then actions which reveal no private information cannot do anything.

>> No.3885921

You notice as soon as discussion gets beyond ideological soundbites, Liberty mysteriously disappears?

>> No.3885938

>>3885907
There is huge amounts of evidence for this plan coming into being scattered throughout literature. Carol Quigley's book "Tragedy and Hope" was written in 1966 and make quite a few outstanding predictions based on the premise.

Look up Edward Griffin. He does a fine job of explaining this conspiratorial view of history and backs it up with facts.

Look up Yuri Beznemov and some of his lectures. He was ( disappeared in 1997 ) an ex KGB agent and he discusses exactly how the collectivist conspiracy went about demoralizing and subverting America since 1950. He is a fucking smart man.

Between Quigley, Griffin and Bezmenov and their facts they present; it is almost impossible to not start seeing this subversion and plan taking place around the world.

>> No.3885958
File: 82 KB, 1200x776, big-bank-theory-chart-large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3885958

>>3885908
You make the mistake of believing that the Fed makes independent policy decisions. Bank of America, JP Morgan, Chase Manhattan and Goldman Sachs have a hand in every single detail of the Fed's policy.

Guess what happens when you object to that policy? Your stock prices goes from $80 a share to $2 a share in a matter of 2 days and you go bankrupt such as Lehman's case.

It is all about wealth consolidation at this point. See the chart for examples.

>> No.3885959

>>3885071
why would you believe this quote in the OP, as it is coming from a marxist?

>> No.3885961

>>3885959
yeah, this is the guy you're buying into:

In a 2008 interview with Amy Goodman on the New York City radio show Democracy Now! he described himself as a "communist in a qualified sense," and in another appearance on the show in October 2009 he described himself as a "radical leftist".[

>> No.3885966

>>3885961
you're all a bunch of useful idiots imho

>> No.3885971

>>3885959
>>3885961

I hate to break it to you... but, you and everyone else in the United States has been practicing Marxism for the past 50 years and you aren't even aware of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpODYhnPEo

>> No.3885983

>>3885958
That only further illustrates the point that the Fed's actions have an extremely limited role in a functioning market. But if you're the conspiracy guy, then I guess that just goes to show that the Fed's role is large in a non-functioning market. Which is why we need strong banking legislation.

>> No.3885992

>>3885971
Only very loosely and in the sense of propoganda based on the assumption "the people run the government so the government should run the economy".

>> No.3885997

>>3885971
if we aren't aware of it, then we aren't practicing it

duh

>> No.3886000

>>3885992
fuck that

"the business of America is business"

>> No.3886013

>>3885983
It is impossible to seek answers to the international banking cartel through politics. We have allowed this cartel to receive so much power over us and our political system over the years that it is impossible to solve anything without completely rejecting everything we have been doing for the past 50 years.

Want to end the Fed? Impossible without a complete systemic global collapse.

Want to storm J.P. Morgan or Goldman Sachs? Be prepared for an instant global economic depression the likes of which the world has never seen.

No body wants to fix the root of the problem. They just want to try and fix some of the results of the problem so they can be transported back to the 1990s and continue to pursue their own selfish interests. That goes for the protestors on Wall Street more than anything. If they were serious about solving these economic issues they wouldn't be holding up signs saying we should end the Fed and then the next minute they are using Federal Reserve Notes to buy pizza and Star Bucks.

The best way to end the Fed is for everyone to stop using Federal Reserve Notes. Be prepared for the fall out of this line of action though.

The best way to end JP Morgan is to buy physical silver to end their paper manipulation of the market with your Federal Reserve Notes instead of spending them on iPhones and Xboxes.

People in this country are much too ignorant to change anything.

>> No.3886043

A free market.

>> No.3886046

>>3886013
I do not subscribe to that conspiracy theory. Sorry.

>> No.3886047

>>3886043
Science Fiction

>> No.3886058

>>3886046
It isn't a conspiracy theory.

>> No.3886071

>>3886046
What part of that was a conspiracy theory?

>> No.3886075

>>3886058
Very well.
> banking cartel
I do not believe central banks are cartels. Sorry.

>> No.3886084

>>3886058
>>3886047
>>3886071
MBismywaifu is a troll, or a massive functional retard.

>>3886075
car·tel/kärˈtel/
Noun:
An association of manufacturers or suppliers that maintains prices at a high level and restricts competition.
A coalition or cooperative arrangement between political parties to promote a mutual interest.

>i hate you go away

>> No.3886094

>>3886084
That is an excellent definition of a cartel. Central banking institutions do not meet it.

>> No.3886096

>>3886075
I would say you are wrong then. You might want to look up the history of the Federal Reserve and how it was created before you grace us with your ignorance.

If a group of incredibly rich bankers come together to form a central bank that controls the money supply of an entire nation for the benefit of each of their supposedly competing banks; isn't the definition of a cartel then I guess we need to send Webster's a letter don't we?

>> No.3886113

>>3886096
I am well aware of how the Federal Reserve was created. It was the Federal Reserve Act.

>> No.3886142

>>3886113
It was created in 1910 in a secret meeting between the richest bankers of the world. Not a single person who was involved even denies it. They openly acknowledge it and they do so because it brings them joy to watch people like you squirm with cognitive dissonance.

>> No.3886146
File: 56 KB, 570x382, ozymandias.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3886146

The global banking cartel is a good thing, I'm pretty sure most of these banksters would be interested in funding prospective research into possible precursors for biological immortality among other things which means people like us can easily get our foot in the door.

Let's face it, we're naturally evolved apes which have only just barely evolved the intelligence to construct civilization, we are not a desirable vessel for a conscious being, humanity needs to be surpassed and some utopia where we laze around all day enjoying our comfortable though short lives is not for the greater good. The apes need to be exploited to support their betters.

Just saying.

>> No.3886155

>>3886142
That's a clever post. If I call you a conspiracy theorist over
> secret meeting
Then you'll just say
> but no one denies it, it's out in the open

If I say, well, it was out in the open, and approved by Congress, who are not bankers, then you'll say
> it was already decided in advance, in secret

And I have cognitive dissonance? Just because I don't think the Federal Reserve system has single-handedly fucked the economy? Or what? Please tell me where I am arguing out of both sides of my mouth.

>> No.3886156

>>3885888
> I don't think the economy will still be crashing 10 years from now. I think the international banking cartel has purposefully engaged in policies to destroy our current economical systems around the world so they can be replaced by some other more totalitarian machination.

That's the same difference as a crashed economy. What's the difference if you get foreclosed on, or if the government-bank "re-allocates" your house to somebody else? What's the difference if you can't buy a car anymore, or the government-bank doesn't assign one to you based on your "job importance index"? It's all the same. Total socialism is the same as failed capitalism, and breeds the same lack of initiative and resentment.

>> No.3886162

>>3886146
posited like a true socialist

>> No.3886166

>>3886146
Stockholm syndrome and your own hate for the miracle of your existence at the same time?

They must have gotten to you at a young age. If you don't think human existence on this planet is something to be preserved then do us all the favor of setting an example.

>> No.3886169

>>3886156
no it isn't

capitalism works; socialism doesn't, and never has

capitalist countries FEED socialist countries

>> No.3886176
File: 151 KB, 929x1373, JekyllIslandCover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3886176

>>3886155
I am not going to sit and argue with your ignorant positions. It isn't my responsibility to educate you. That is your responsibility. It is my responsibility to point out your ignorance.

Read this book. That should get you started on fixing the ignorance. It is 100% documented on every point that it makes.

>> No.3886178

Nothing, the current system is great for progress and efficient trade. Why give it up because a bunch of angsty youths who didn't try hard enough to get a job say so?

>> No.3886193

>>3886178
You might not have noticed from the comfort of your daddy's trust fund, but we are in a global depression and the type of capitalism we have been using for the past 50 years is the reason why.

>> No.3886194

>>3886178

9.1% unemployment rate.

Implying 1 in 10 people would rather starve to death than find a job.

>> No.3886204

>>3886194
Real unemployment is 24.8% right now. The doctored BLS reports are the ones that show 9.1%.

>> No.3886205

>Libyans fighting to live in a free country.
>Syrians risking their lives to simply demand to live in a free country.
>Well fed, comfortably clothed minority demanding the entire system change because they were stupid enough to run into debt and any second they are not being reported on is tantamount to a media conspiracy.

One of these fights is not like the others, one of these struggles is not quite the same.

>> No.3886208
File: 79 KB, 450x675, adam-weishaupt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3886208

>>3886176
> read review of book
> However, in addition to detailing thet workings of the Federal Reserve, Mr. Griffin weaves a spellbinding tale of a global conspiracy that dates back to the Rothschild's. Illuminati who are in positions of power and looking to dominate the world.

> global conspiracy
> illuminati
I already read The Illuminatus! Trilogy, thanks.

>> No.3886214

>>3886193
I work a 45 hour week. Not everyone is as lucky as you.

>>3886194
And yet, I'm rolling in job offers from when I went job hunting 6 months ago. There are more job offers in my inbox than viagra spam.

>> No.3886223

>>3885938

I simply find it difficult to believe that a conspiracy for control of the human race (by a class that is already exceptionally privileged) has been underway for at least half of the last century and has persisted successfully without any internal betrayal that might relay such a plot to the general public.

I also find such a thing beyond difficult to orchestrate (requiring a solid collective will of many generations of many individuals).

Also, Occam's razor.

If the masses do in fact succumb to total bondage under the control of an elite, I will humbly yield that you may have been correct. I do not think such a power imbalance can ever be sustained for any useful duration of time, however.

>> No.3886224

>>3886204
U3 is 9.1%
U6 is like 16.16%

bad fucking numbers

>> No.3886228

>>3886223
doesn't have to; rich people, and powerful people, are always in flux; only the systems stay the same

>> No.3886233
File: 11 KB, 256x320, Retrato-jacque-fresco.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3886233

any type of political alignment proposed in this current system will simply have a destructive prospect by nature. we have to eliminate all non-imperative components in our system (money, politics) and begin contemplating ideas from scratch. i personally prefer the concept of having a resourced-based economy as formulated by Jacque Fresco (the founder of the Venus Project) its a bold move, but in the world's current conditions, taking chances is beyond worthwhile.

tl;dr: end the monetary system, establish resourced-based economy.

inb4: "zeitgeist follower retard"; "that shit is not possible".

>> No.3886274

So that's why they were getting their food from decadent capitalist fast food joints, wearing decadent capitalist mass produced clothing, filming on decadent capitalist cameras and using decadent capitalist youtube to share the footage.

>> No.3886316

>>3886223
> I simply find it difficult to believe that a conspiracy for control of the human race (by a class that is already exceptionally privileged) has been underway for at least half of the last century and has persisted successfully without any internal betrayal that might relay such a plot to the general public.

HELLO, MCFLY! There are internal betrayals all the fucking time. Book after book is written about them. But most people are sheep, and express their sheep-ness by blocking out that information. So it's not hard to conspire against the goyim masses. They WANT to be ruled by Jewish bankers. And so they ARE. They send the bankers engraved maps that point out the route to their anuses so that further rape can occur there.

>> No.3886338

http://www.oct282011.com/

Once you understand this...everything will be clear. Don't fear us children of Earth. This is in the best interest of all that inhabit the planet.

>> No.3886345

>>3886274
I already know I am going to get shit for this, and I hesitate to post it. I would like to qualify that I really do think market economies are the best and should never go away.

But. But your objection is well-covered in the book "The Nature and Logic of Capitalism." It is really, really unfortunate that the author has a bit too much Marx in him because otherwise his points are excellent.

However, for a short version:
Firms in a capitalist system would obviously seek to profit on dissent, as much as they profit on anything else. In fact, in order to avoid dissenting voices from achieving some kind of anti-market goal, such dissent needs to be incorporated into the market. It only sounds ironic if you think capitalists are like priests or something. Markets are processes and social change is a process that, of necessity in a capitalist system, takes place within that system.

It's not ironic at all.

>> No.3886351

>>3886316
>>3886338
I shudder to think of a life so boring and devoid of meaning that you get a rush from believing this nonsense.

>> No.3886363

>>3886351
I shudder to think of a mind so weak and occupied that you can dismiss any idea without rational consideration.

>> No.3886365

>>3886351
shit website too

unforgiveable

>> No.3886371

>>3886345
It is perfectly possible to grow your own food, make your own clothes and build your own house. Just look at the Amish.

The reason the type of people demonstrating in this protest would not do this is because it requires a lot of hard work and, clearly, that's something they're averse to. To truly change the system from within you would run for office or propose legislation, however, as with being self sufficient, this takes a hell of a lot more effort than sitting in a park having a gay old time does.

>> No.3886381

>>3886363
I had a quick read of your shitty site. The coherent content is as lacking as its basis in reality.

A few formulae and a diaram of a thought experiment do not a reasoned argument make.

>> No.3886468

>>3886371
Of course it is possible. It is also possible to buy your clothing and protest the current kind of organization. It is even possible to have a bank account while simultaneously thinking that the current banking system is in serious need of change.

>> No.3886552

>>3886468
To endlessly decry something while choosing to directly benefit from it is hypocrisy and makes whatever you argue even more hollow and meaningless.

>> No.3886644

>>3886552
That's ridiculous. If you don't like your job, you can still work at your job while trying to make it a better place. If you don't like your government, you can still follow its laws while seeking change. The only thing which would make such acts seem hypocritical is the foolish consistency of a small mind.

>> No.3886663
File: 70 KB, 500x500, 4JtJw.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3886663

America isn't a pure democracy.

It is a Republic.

hurr durr. Sorry guys, Im gonna have to go with Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates on this one. A Republic is the best form of government. It is the PEOPLE who are to blame.

>> No.3886668

>>3886644
This would be more akin to working at your job while protesting against it. That's why people on strike stop working. Surely, if these people are representative of such a large portion of the population, then running for government would be simple.

>> No.3886710

>>3886668
> It's dumb to walk everywhere, I am gonna buy a car.
> DERP you still have to walk to your car you fucking hypocrite

And strikes would be better if people worked. Pay would be withheld, and revenue gained by the company during the strike would not be available to it (that is, the company's "pay" is also withheld). Such measures ensure that the negotiations happen between the parties to the transaction and do not cause externalities, such as dockworker strikes having negative impacts on the free flow of goods to people who have no part in the transaction.