Sociopathy

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780176]

Emotions are instinctive responses to situations. Most people have emotions because they are evolutionary useful, but they many times hinder logical thought.

Sociopaths lack emotional responses. The condition is labeled a disorder because sociopaths are often selfish. The actions they take are often very logical or seemingly absurd, having no regard for personal safety.

We all like logical answers, right? Sociopathy would, on the surface, appear to be a pretty cool thing to have; but humans aren't typically smart enough to see the long-term consequences of their actions. A sociopath may benefit from theft, but if repeated many times one will eventually be caught and ostracized within the community. It would appear that humans need something a little more than logic to push them in the right direction.

Which emotions are necessary and which are more or less dead weight for a person striving for logical thought?

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780260]

I'm thinking empathy is by far the most useful and the least of a hindrance. Then again, empathy isn't much use if there are no emotions to empathize with. :\

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780281]

Anger is definitely one to get rid of. Sociopaths are plenty capable of violence when necessary and without the help of anger.

[Anonymous No.3780294]

bump

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780347]

>>3780281
I'm not sure about fear. Fear doesn't just apply to being irrationally afraid of spiders, heights, or the dark. It gives us inhibition which is socially useful, and I can't very well take away anger but leave fear as we would be all flight and no fight...

The more I think about it, the more harder it seems to pick apart the system already in place.

[Anonymous No.3780360]

>>3780294
I believe that's the first time I've ever seen someone try to bump a thread but instead sage it at the same time.

I suppose the basic emotion of being happy, at least mildly would be important. I would consider without it, you'd pretty much be depressed.

[Anonymous No.3780372]

inb4 EK doesn't feel anything

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3780377]

>>3780372
i feel less emotions due to meditation, but you are exaggerating.

[Anonymous No.3780387]

Emotions resulting in procrastination. The ones I'm feeling right the fuck now. It would be neat if I could just DO the things I decide to do without breaking through all the damn mental resistance. In general, the mechanism that makes us more likely to choose instant gratification instead of deferral for larger gains later is obsolete, and I would be more than happy to see it go.

[Anonymous No.3780419]

>>3780347
Of course its hard- our entire thinking process is built around it, isn't it? It's as hardwired as can be. Trust me, I know first hand what happens when your fight or flight mechanism goes out of sync. Not pretty, and requires some heavy meds to allow me to function without constant panic attacks/aggressive outbursts. Medulla oblongata is a right bitch sometimes. I don't think tampering with this shit would be a good idea.

[Anonymous No.3780423]

logic is not freedom from emotion, no matter how much star trek you may watch.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780429]

>>3780360
Sadness is an emotion though. In fact I would believe you can't have happiness without sadness. Without them one would be more able to go about completing one's own goals.

However, without the satisfaction one gets from completing goals or the dissatisfaction from failing to complete a goal, there is little reason to make or strive for goals.

Logic isn't useful if one never takes action and action requires goals. I think the problem with removing emotion is that emotion is the biological template for what goals we create for ourselves.

[Anonymous No.3780440]

sociopaths don't lack emotional responses.

what we lack is empathy, we're obligate solipsists. Usually highly emotional ones.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780460]

>>3780423
I didn't say that, nor did that green blooded hobgoblin from Star Trek.

Emotions CLOUD logical thought.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780468]

>>3780440
>implying you are a sociopath
Self-diagnosed I presume?

[Anonymous No.3780476]

>>3780377
wat
are you aethers girlfriend or something

[Anonymous No.3780479]

>>3780460
logic is a human expression of observed causality, emotions are a part of that process. Emotion doesn't just cloud logic, it also frames it and provides the context and intersubjectivity required to have and use it.

If you were truly emotionless you'd see that logic has absolutely no purpose aside from that which our emotions assign it. Perhaps you already do.

[Anonymous No.3780485]

>>3780468
diagnosed by the USMC.
doesn't matter if I am or not, a quick read of any medical examination of sociopaths will reveal the truth of what I say. Blunted affect =/= lack of emotion. Sociopaths regularly act out on emotions... just not your emotions.

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3780486]

>>3780476
wat? no.
Aether meditates?

[Anonymous No.3780488]

>>3780476

Words cannot describe the epicness of your post.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780500]

>>3780485
>diagnosed by the USMC
I bet they loved you. From what I have heard, most of the USMC have serious mental issues. Then again, it looks bad if marines have their mental issues on paper.

[Anonymous No.3780510]

>>3780500
I was convicted of a couple felonies, which is a requirement to recieve a diagnosis of 'sociopath' vs. 'clinically antisocial personality disorder.'

the Marines don't mind antisocial types I don't think- they're useful.

they have no use for antisocial types that regularly break laws though- the sociopaths.

[Anonymous No.3780515]

You obviously don't understand what sociopathy is, OP.

[Anonymous No.3780545]

Sociopaths are not inherently selfish, but I guess that is implied in "often". I was diagnosed one but I don't really believe I am selfish. I am indifferent to emotional outcry's but I do my best to help people. I can read peoples emotions by knowledge what they cause people to do. Not what they feel.

I think my head injuries caused my lack of emotional response in many situations. But its been so long sense I've felt anything that I have no idea what it is like to feel anymore. I just remember that it can be and usually is unpleasant and bland. Even when using psychoactive chemicals I feel no emotions. So I stick plainly to hallucinogenics for at least a indoor view to my mind, for I can see the emotional side.

[Anonymous No.3780546]

>>3780377
lol meditation. i thought you were an atheist? there's no use for meditation

[Anonymous No.3780544]

>2011
>categorising emotions instead of accepting them as a mishmash of vague feelings

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780567]

>>3780479
>logic is a human expression of observed causality, emotions are a part of that process. Emotion doesn't just cloud logic, it also frames it and provides the context and intersubjectivity required to have and use it.
>If you were truly emotionless you'd see that logic has absolutely no purpose aside from that which our emotions assign it.
Let me slim that down into something more meaningful.
>we use emotions to establish goals
That's what I said here (>>3780429).

A) Insanity is the lack of logic.
B) Emotions are arbitrarily defined by biology, i.e. subjective.
C) Something arbitrary has no logical reasoning behind it (definition).
D) Only emotions provide goals.
E) Goals are necessary for action.
F) Action is necessary for life.
G) E+F → Goals are necessary for life.
H) D+F → Emotions are necessary for life.
 I) B+C → Emotions lacks logical reasoning.
J) A+ I  → Emotions are insane.
H) H+J → Life requires insanity.
QED

[Anonymous No.3780568]

>>3780545
Was your diagnosis 'sociopath,' or was it APD?

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3780572]

>>3780546
>dat fucking ignorance
meditation =/= praying.
I am atheist, but meditation is for completely non religious reasons.

[Anonymous No.3780574]

>>3780546
What is this? Mediation comes in many many forms, and most do not have any religious significance. Controlling your mind and body through thought is all there is to it.

[Anonymous No.3780580]

>>3780546

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780584]

>>3780546
>meditation is useless
No it isn't. Meditation has a measurable effect on the mind, with or without an astral plane.

[Anonymous No.3780582]

>>3780567
fair enough and nicely stated.

the admission seems to conflict with your OP though, which I admit is the only portion of the thread I read. Attempting to judge which qualia are more important than others is a bit like trying to decide which fingers we can do without.

[Anonymous No.3780594]

>>3780567

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3780600]

>>3780546
if troll, you did well.

[Anonymous No.3780611]

>>3780600
Troll speaks to fellow troll. I'm proud of /sci these days.

[Anonymous No.3780612]

>>3780567
>B) Emotions are arbitrarily defined by biology, i.e. subjective.

>B) Emotions are causally produced by biology, i.e. objective.

biology doesn't much defy causality or logic.

[Anonymous No.3780618]

>>3780567
>B) Emotions are arbitrarily defined by biology, i.e. subjective.

>arbitrarily
No. They are the result of billions of years of evolutionary pressure towards fitness. This is the necessary logical consequence for any system with imperfect (possibly partial) replication.

[Anonymous No.3780623]

ITT: Teenage angst

[Anonymous No.3780626]

>>3780584
Focusing on a given achievable task or goal (particularly in practical activities) provides better results than any of your bullshit sitting cross legged on a rug 'meditation'

[Anonymous No.3780630]

>>3780611
Ek isn't a troll. Ek is right about most things. If you disagree, present your case

[Anonymous No.3780634]

>>3780623
>yfw they're all middle aged.

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3780642]

>>3780630
i dont really troll, i try to be funny in a none trollish way that hopefully will be appreciated by most, but will be classed as trolling by some.

[Anonymous No.3780649]

>>3780642
You can subjectively think your self something else, but you're still a troll to me.

[Anonymous No.3780652]

>>3780642
what music taste do you have EK?

[Anonymous No.3780651]

>>3780642
>a woman who think she's funny


Don't make me cringe, please.

[Anonymous No.3780657]

>>3780651
women can be funny indeed.
for example when they insist in being equal

[Anonymous No.3780658]

>>3780649
the word subjectively is a superfluous addition to that sentence since it would impossible to think as someone else.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780662]

>>3780582
My original post was there to start a discussion and was just one step in my train of thought. I was reading about sociopaths on Wikipedia and became interested when I made a connection between their complete lack of emotion and my lack of emotion. I tried looking through their eyes and figured their problem was that they never established the goals that I have established for myself.

Some Christian friends of mine have independently asked me why I act moral if I don't believe in God. I said it was because I have empathy and because I have goals which parallel morality and thus acting moral is logical. One such goal is to ensure my effect on the universe lives on through humanity. All that I will be after death is information in the form of my complex influence on humanity. Much of that information will be lost if humanity goes extinct, like reading a letter after it has been burnt. Thus, one of my goals is to have a net benefit on society, and actions necessitated by that goal often mirror "moral" actions.

I arbitrarily chose my goals, and I'm not afraid to say that the goals I chose are heavily influenced by emotions. Someone may have just as easily chosen hedonism and it would be difficult for me to argue why my goals are better (though I have one argument why they are). However, once I have those goals established, I can live my life in pure, blissful logic. Because my goals emulate the nature of my mind (a nature determined by my environment and biology) therefor I rarely if ever deviate from my goals.

I was just interested in the boundary between emotion and logic. I wasn't seriously arguing for any particular position on emotion.

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3780676]

>>3780652
various. my taste in music is random as fuck.
>>3780657
hurr durr, and its "insist ON being equal" you illiterate fuck.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780680]

>>3780618
>They are the result of billions of years of evolutionary pressure towards fitness. This is the necessary logical consequence for any system with imperfect (possibly partial) replication.
So they serve a role in preserving the species, but preserving the species need not be one's goal. That would be one of the arbitrarily determined goals that I was speaking about. If someone opted for hedonism at the expense of the species you wouldn't be able to provide a logical reason why they should reject their own position and take up yours.

[Anonymous No.3780686]

Emotion is important in determining what is the best thing to do and first. Emotion means passion, passion means dedication, dedication means doing shit for personal fulfillment.
It would be a very shallow existence without emotions.

[Anonymous No.3780688]

>>3780676
I love it when you're angry

[Anonymous No.3780723]

>>3780662
Ah.
I am that sociopath that was diagnosed in the military, and whether you believe me on that or not isn't important. I'll state my view in case it adds data to what you've already read.

we are highly emotional, mostly acting on anger or pleasure responses (joy, lust, excitement etc.), though nostalgia and fear are certainly present as well. I'd guess my own emotional spectrum at least equals that of any other person, I merely don't feel much pity, love, comraderie, etc. Emotional response to others is lacking.

We are completely selfish, though we help others if doing so helps us.

many of us are altruistic and accomplished moralists. Pragmatic views of society result in the same moral values as humanistic views or (generally) theological ones.

we are great at goals, both short and long term. We love to manipulate people and situations towards our own ends. We are masters of setting goals and achieving them.

The contradiction I'm seeing in your characterization of sociopaths is that you're saying they lack emotions and thus can't set goals, when in fact it's the uninhibited acting on emotion that causes sociopaths to often fail at achieving goals. If sociopaths are devoid of emotion, there's no reason for them to murder people. Crime almost always serves an emotional need, it is rarely the logical choice.

one can't be devoid of emotion and come to the logical conclusion that people should be randomly assaulted. There is no logic no matter how dry that leads people consistantly to that conclusion.

[Anonymous No.3780732]

HEY GUYS IM A SOCIPATH AS WELL FUCK SCHOOL PARENTS SUCK RITE SO EDGY.

Seriously, just because no girl will go out with you does not mean you're a sociopath.

[Anonymous No.3780745]

>>3780662
If one of your goals is to "mark your mark" so to say, then why are you posting on an anonymous image board? Even with the trip eventually everything 404's.
Or is your posting here just taking some downtime from your goals?

[Anonymous No.3780759]

>>3780732
Your not proving anything other then you yourself are a trend fag. Reciting this only proves the point further.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780873]

>>3780723
>The contradiction I'm seeing in your characterization of sociopaths...
If sociopaths simply lack empathy, then my explanations for sociopathic behavior are moot.

>Many of us are altruistic and accomplished moralists. Pragmatic views of society result in the same moral values as humanistic views or (generally) theological ones.
I'm interested in this.

By "pragmatic views of society" and "altruistic" I'll assume you mean you have personal goals for society, that you'd prefer it to take one form versus another. These are not long term goals, correct? You only care about taxes going down and government programs bettering your lifestyle being established, correct? I don't see how a long term goal like preserving democracy could be held by someone who doesn't care about anyone but themselves.

[fizx !d75etXAowg No.3780944]

>>3780745
Discussion helps me disseminate my ideas as well as come up with new ones.

[Anonymous No.3781045]

Just gonna leave this here...

[Anonymous No.3781222]

All emotion is necessary. If you attempt to eliminate a part of your mind, you are sacrificing a potential avenue to success in the future. You might only think of a solution if you're angry, or even in despair. If you do not accept yourself, feelings and all, you may become crushingly frustrated if defeated instead of accepting that you are indeed human and that only half of your brain is designed to use logic.

[Anonymous No.3781249]

>>3781222
I am also implying that emotionally stimulating things like books and media can contribute to a triumph over seemingly logic-only obstacles.

[Anonymous No.3782350]

>>3780873
sorry, I took off for a bit.
thoughts in case you check the thread...
sociopaths rarely show emotion, kinda like if you were in the garage by yourself and hit your thumb with a hammer. You might scream in anger and pain, and curse and hop around, but there's not much point to it since nobody can observe your pain. You could just as easily keep quiet and do nothing. In time sociopaths tend to keep quiet and do nothing because we don't honestly believe anyone's around to perform for.

While we lack empathy we do tend to have strong reactions of gratitude when things go our way or anger when they don't. So if you help a sociopath you're useful, and we don't generally harm what's useful. If you get in our way we're prone to temper tantrums and violence, again it's not about you, but about how things are going for us. The emotional reactions are in place, we just don't generally recognize the free agency of other people. Philosophical zombies can make one happy or angry too though.

regarding morality I think you're correct. I do want to live in a democratic society for example, but I don't care what happens to it after I die. Our goals are governed by our needs and wants, so anything that truly reaches beyond our scope is difficult for us to seriously care about. Within our limited world though we eventually learn to like things that are good for society, because even if others aren't real they certainly affect how we feel. I have no particular moral objection to murder, but I don't like prison and that's about as much morality as most people have.

[Anonymous No.3782405]

>>3782350
also our failure to understand the emotions of others arises more from an innate solipsism rather than an actual lack of emotion.

another example- say your refrigerator suddenly began to act depressed, or you wrecked your car and it screamed in agony... these would be intriguing things to you, and you'd be curious about them.

we're curious about the emotional reactions of others, and often fuck with people just to see how they'll react. We don't believe your reactions to be real, so we aren't harming you, we're gathering data. This is of course extremely dangerous and uncomfortable for you if in fact you exist, but I doubt you can convince me or any sociopath that you do. I don't feel your pain, thus your pain isn't real.

while philosophers have long dealt with these issues, sociopaths are forced into them by illness or poisoning. It is a lonely condition, but it certainly has its rewards as well. Being the center of the universe is one.

[Anonymous No.3782454]

You'd think empathy would be more useful than no having emotions. I have emotions, I can just choose to ignore them. It's a sort of heuristic input that lets me evaluate a situation; I find it very useful. If you know how someone feels by doing something, you can manipulate them a lot more than if you didn't know how they felt.

On a related note, sociopaths who kill or steal are just stupid. They may have no emotions, but they also have no logic if they can't deduce I steal/kill -> I go to jail. A logical sociopath would probably try to achieve as much power or influence as possible with impunity.

[Anonymous No.3782472]

>>3780176
Your premise is false. Sociopaths/Psychopaths feel emotions.

[Anonymous No.3782586]

>>3782454
exactly. sociopaths tend to be governed more by emotion than logic. Poor impulse control and a failure to believe in others finishes out the mix.

logical sociopaths tend to be CEO's of corporations, or politicians. We're pretty good at both, and we're hungry for power of course. The main drawback to having them in charge is that they don't care who they crush along the way, though that's useful in business and government a lot of the time.

fizx, for an examination of sociopathic morality I've seen few that beat Rand's objectivism. She fails to take into account a great number of important behaviors, but her ethical basis is essentially antisocial.

[Anonymous No.3784134]

>>3782405

What if you found a set of logically related statements that proved that each person is an independent, sovereign individual?

[Anonymous No.3784149]

>non-sociopaths discuss what sociopaths feel
I don't even what is this

[Anonymous No.3784199]

>>3784149

>Ignores the self proclaimed sociopath, whose description fits everything I've read


To quote a British acquaintance of mine when asked if there were roller coasters in England,

"...are you a douche or something?"

[ニア愛 !!yKw8mGNXxz6 No.3784215]

people with anti-social personality disorder have emotions. The just lack empathy, meaning they have a limited emotional scale. The still feel lust, anger, fear, etc. None of them however are tied to other living organism. A sociopath living in a world without other things would operate the same way as a regular person

[Anonymous No.3784325]

>>3784134
intersubjectivity comes close to that kind of proof, but it doesn't much matter. I lack the capacity to accept it and the neurology necessary to understand and thus recognize other people anyways.

I logically accept that you're a real person, because it's boring to think otherwise. I'm incapable of acting on that acceptance though. The belief is a very shallow one, incomplete. It's a paradox I guess, but it doesn't matter. If you exist I still don't understand you because I can't read your emotional responses, and I simply don't care to.

[Anonymous No.3784429]

>>3784325

Interesting.

In order to respond to my statement that quickly, you would have had to have been checking the thread regularly. If you don't care to understand the emotions of others, what compelled you to do this? Furthermore, if you don't care, then how can it be considered an idle fact finding mission? not caring about something and being whimsical are two very different things.

[Anonymous No.3784545]

>>3780567
>D) Only emotions provide goals.
>E) Goals are necessary for action.
>F) Action is necessary for life.

Nope. Atoms don't have the 'goal' of forming life, they just sometimes do. This is a result of physical law, not emotion.

[Anonymous No.3784551]

>>3784429
I hang out on /an/ and /sci/ regularly, all day erry day.

I'm actually watching this thread to see it doesn't 404, mostly to get fizx's thoughts on pragmatic moralists. My interest is in people's methods for overcoming Hume's guillotine, as I stated earlier I believe that pragmatism, humanism, and theology all arrive at essentially the same moral conclusions because societies demand certain things. Which is to say morality is meaningless, we're going to do what we do whether it's 'good' or 'bad' because it's our nature to do so, and all attempts to justify actions are done after the fact. Or- there is no morality, only logic trying to justify what we have done.

I'm curious if others see this, or if you have to be amoral to recognize it.

[Anonymous No.3784628]

>>3780176
I had very similar thoughts before I tried removing my emotions through chemical means. It's actually not that hard to keep focused on the long term as long as that's naturally your sort of temperament

Which isn't to say the short term options can't still tempt you.

[Anonymous No.3784879]

>>3780176

intuition and assumption respectively.

[Anonymous No.3784965]

>Question:
Can a person become sociopathic, or is something that you are (or are not) all you life?

That is to say, can a proper set of life experiences induce sociopathy in an otherwise healthy mind?

[Anonymous No.3784993]

>>3784965
generally it's something people are born.

however sufficient brain damage can do the trick.

surviving a suffocation or drowning, extreme trauma to the head, or more commonly heavy metals poisoning can all cause it.

lead poisoning in kids is the most common known environmental cause, and indeed when we stopped using leaded gasoline we saw a drastic decrease in violent crime rates about 20 years later... and in fact crime rates have continued to drop since. Not all violent criminals are sociopaths, but there's a large overlap in the two groups.

[Anonymous No.3785038]

>>3784993
Huh. I grew up in an old Victorian manor house. Lead paint fucking everywhere.

And guess how much empathy I feel? Not a fucking bit. Thanks a lot 19th century fags for making me crazy.

[Anonymous No.3785076]

>>3785038
if you ate enough paint to become a sociopath it would also reduce your IQ to the point where you could barely function.

sometimes lead has nothing to do with it. People with high IQ's and no empathy are more likely to be autistic than strictly antisocial. Autistic spectrum people are rarely violent, sociopaths are violent by definition.