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/sci/ - Science & Math

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[ERROR] No.3745238 [Reply] [Original]

>'God particle' goes missing: Higgs boson 'may not exist' say Hadron Collider scientists

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2037722/God-particle-goes-missing-Higgs-boson-exist-s
ay-Hadron-Collider-scientists.html

in another word, a big waste of money effort.
Sure, there are other benefit from this effort, but if the goal was to find the boson, then it's obviously a very big waste for something so costly, and there wasn't much info whether a high chance it would happen.

Sure, it's science, and testing and verification and then real experiment, etc.
My point is before that. Unless there is solid theoretical support of the theory, with several other ways to support this theory, it's just a last effort, then don't bother do it. Waste to much money to do the "right way of experimentation" of verifying it. The question is should we do it or not, not about whether doing it will verify it or not, or the experiment was done correctly or not.

>> No.3745244

Please stop calling it the God particle... such a bad name.

Anyone who cares about this stuff knows what the Higgs Boson is....

>> No.3745249

>>3745238
woo, we go back to square one.

universe is eternal.
fuck you string theory.
you will never be string theory theory now.

>> No.3745251

>>3745244
Yes, please stop. Naming a mere particle after the creator of the universe is an indefensible and outrageous offense.

>> No.3745252

A) I'm not surprised.
B) It's not like building a particle accelerator is a waste of money.

>> No.3745258

But, that didn't stop these scientists from suckering the government (taxpayers) and private entities from sending them the cash.

This entire scheme was a shot in the dark, literally, from the beginning...paid for with YOUR money. It's like global warming. Debunked junk science fueled by the color green.

>> No.3745263

God doesn't like boners.

>> No.3745267

Great! So since it served that purpose so well and cost so very little, when does CERN okay the build of the super large collider? I'm so excited at the thought of wasted billions!

I know, I know. We wouldn't know it DIDN'T exist otherwise, right? It's like rising insurance premiums that I never use.

what a waste of money.

>> No.3745268

So we've officially disproven god.

>> No.3745278

God particle 'may not exist' say Hadron Collider ... Atheists celebrate

>> No.3745277

>>3745258

And there was the risk of black holes. Man, these scientists are crazy motherfuckers. I wanna be a scientist and wear sunglasses and a labcoat and look cool.

>> No.3745282

>>3745258
Even "failed" experiments teaches us something

>> No.3745284

> implying debunking a hypothesis isn't worthwhile

welcome to sci.

on an interesting note though, fellow scifriends: why do black holes have gravity if gravity is mediated by force-carrying particles and the particle can't escape from the black hole due to the curvature of space?

>> No.3745287

If they did ever find the Higgs Boson they would have to stop calling it the "God particle"as it would then be part of the known physical world. What ALL revelation tells us, whether its ancient, like the Bible or modern like the Urantia Book, is that God created the world and sustains it through the Holy Spirit, its not a particle. ALL Particles are Gods particles. s particles.

>> No.3745288

>>353626213
actually the higgs boson isnt the only thing the hadron collider has tested for. The LHC has proven that time exists due to protons that were accelerated near the speed of light.

>> No.3745289
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[ERROR]

>>3745238
You are a fucking moron.

\thread

>> No.3745290

>>3745284
i can only hope someone doesn't find a way to incorporate the retarded string theory into something again.

>> No.3745291

lol europe, what a waste of money.

>> No.3745296

>>3745284
>>gravity IS the curvature of space-time

>> No.3745298

>>3745268
What? no, this proves god exists. They were trying to claim everything occurs cause of this particle.

If they can't find the particle, then god is doing it.

>> No.3745300

If they dont find this God particle it means physics as we know it is incorrect. This has the possibility of changing the world as we know it, possibly a scary though depending on your position, I for one think this would be a good thing. Quantum physics is vey interesting as it explores different frequencies e.g past present and future is happening now, you just cant see it, same as listening to the radio, if you tune into BBC1 it doesnt mean the other frequencies dont exist you just cant see/hear them. This ties in very nicely with Meditation and astral projection, if you're not sure what this is check it out. Meditation/ Astral projection isnt anything new it;'s been around for hunudreds if not thousands of years, the masses have just forgotten how to do it as we are so caught up in celeberity and material items.

>> No.3745306

I knew it doesn't exist.I've been saying it all along.But do these bozos listen.No.

>> No.3745309

>Unless there is solid theoretical support of the theory
You want solid theoretic support for the Standard Model? Seriously?

>> No.3745313

Whole lot of hurring and durring in this thread.

No, nobody has ruled out even the Standard Model Higgs.
Yes, if we found out the Higgs didn't exist, it would be a meaningful discovery.
No, the LHC wasn't built for the sole purpose of finding the Higgs. It's looking for ANY particle whose mass is such that previous colliders didn't have the energy to create it, but the LHC does. Which potentially includes dark matter, SUSY partners of the SM particles, and a bazillion other ideas theorists have come up with.

>> No.3745315

Why should this be a surprise at all. No body has any proof that god exists. A very common theory is man made god in his own image. Hence if there is no god, then god particle is just another myth and find it a waste of money, time and effort. A big scientific hoax
I bet those so called "scientists" are rolling in dough though

>> No.3745316

>>3745311
reverse universe theory.

fuck all this retro shit like m-theory.

>> No.3745311

so what alternative theories are there?

>> No.3745317

>>3745296
you don't know what you're talking about so please stop talking.

or google 'graviton'.

>> No.3745325

All that money !!!! Could have been spent on what we know exists like people starving and providing water for people . Waste of time and money

>> No.3745330

What a waste of money, just go home and read your Bible, God made the world and all that is in it, no amount of denying or investigating has changed that nor will it ever change that.

>> No.3745335

It's an abomination to my kingdom. Look at the monstrous waste of money that should be feeding 5000 people with bread and fish and turning water into wine for my brethren. I could take 2 protons and make a particle fit for a banquet for the world. These satans with their 666 machine think they can replace me and find my particle that God has kept in his secret place.

>> No.3745337

>>3745330
idiot

>> No.3745338

>>3745317
Because force carrying particles do not intefere with themselves. Thus, gravitons are not affected by other gravitons and travel at c, assuming gravitational fields can be quantized.

>> No.3745340

>>3745317
>graviton
the LHC hasn't yet failed to find it this it must be real!

>> No.3745341

After LHC went on the news, I already had a feeling that it would be a total waste of money. Now, it's confirmed to be nothing more than an expensive toy for scientists.

>> No.3745342

Interesting. If you want to find something, and you want to believe it, and you communicate your belief, and by spending enough money, could can convince enough people it's true, and then you "choose and select" the data mixed with a little statistical error, and you can get away with making statements of "Proof" even though it is not true. Same formula as WMD and Hussein? Same formula as Libya and Gaddafi?

>> No.3745343

laymen here...I dont particularly understand what the colider does nor do i have any idea about the funding involved...but is it even a whole fraction of a percent of what we spend on weapons to kill eachother with?

Just curious.

>> No.3745344

>>3745338
This was meant to be a reply to your original inquiry

>> No.3745349

I suppose OP and people like him also think that our forays into space and money pumped into NASA are useless as well? Because it's the same goddamn argument.

>> No.3745351

daily mail lol

>> No.3745356

this is not even a troll thread, this is a Luddite thread

sage goes in all fields

fucking barbarians

>> No.3745364

>>3745349
OP is obviously trolling, but there are a lot of people who think like that. Cue image people discussing Stephen Hawking on Facebook.

>> No.3745366

The end of world has already started and the kingdom of god is at hand repent and seak the kingdom of god signs of end has already started ,natural disasters,kingdom's termoil,unbelief in god what more signs do people want. This is a fatherless generation all are running like mad dogs chasing the wind open your eyes and see

>> No.3745377

>>3745349
NASA is different. There were technological innovations and development of new industries. But for the LHC, there's nothing of value except intellectual masturbation.

>> No.3745385

>>3745238
>>3745244
>>3745251
>>3745258
>>3745267
>>3745278
>>3745287
>>3745300
>>3745306
>>3745315
>>3745325
>>3745330
>>3745335
>>3745342
>>3745366
samefag

>> No.3745391

i'll say it again

daily mail

lol

must be a bunch of americans if they don't know that the daily mail is basically fox news

>> No.3745393

The LHC has thousands of other experiments that will continue into 2014+. It has already discovered other particles. It is also a great source of anti-matter which is being looked into for propulsion research.

The amount of anti-matter this thing will create for research will pay its cost 10 times over.

>> No.3745396

>>3745377
It's not different at all. Both cost a lot of money without any clear goal in terms of a scientific endpoint. Discoveries from NASA have been random and very beneficial to society. Chances are the same will be true of the LHC. You need to invest in this kind of thing in order to reap benefits in the future. Even if it is completely useless and you obtain absolutely no information from it, I'd rather governments try shit like this than much of the shit they spend money on.

>> No.3745415

>>3745396

NASA isn't an object you fucking idiot, its a whole organ dedicated to space travel and other space related stuff which means developing existing technologies and inventing new things in order to SPACE.

LHC is just a huge ass, expensive tool.

>> No.3745430

>>3745415
National AERONAUTICS (and) Space Administration

>> No.3745437 [DELETED] 

>>3745415
yfw you realize the LHC and all particle colliders are microscopes.

>> No.3745440

>>3745415
In fairness, a lot of the "hurr NASA invented shit" is just false but constantly repeated memes, we would have teflon, microwaves, tang, etc even if we didnt go to the moon; probably be a lot better off if that money had gone to useful shit like satellites and telescopes that do actual science

>> No.3745442

Don't people see that the Higgs Boson not being found is going to re-open doors for attempting to understand the cosmos. I think there's going to be a psychedelic revival.

>> No.3745455

>>3745440

By this standard, what point would we have to fund anything with government money? Internet... pfff... fuck DARPA, that shit would've been discovered at some point.

>> No.3745458

>>3745442
That's just being in denial. The most likely thing that will happen is the eventual cutting off of funding for the LHC in the near future due to lack of productivity.

>> No.3745459

so is warp drive possible or not?

>> No.3745463

>>3745440
you're an idiot. never post again.

>> No.3745476

Also fucking just look at this thing, coolest shit ever. it's like a massive magnetic vagina

>> No.3745487

>>3745463
if he is so obviously an idiot, then it would be of no vother for you to provide counterfactual evidence against his post, right?

>> No.3745500

>>the daily heil

>>news

>> No.3745508

>>3745487
if you weren't functionally illiterate, you wouldn't misspell words, right?

you're an idiot.

>> No.3745513

>>3745487
>provides no factual evidence
>expects counter-factual evidence in responses

it's all just conjecture anyway, we have this shit: nasa, lhc, because its fucking cool and we learn shit from it and fuck all else.

>> No.3745516

>>3745487
Because he knows I'm right
>cost of apollo program $25 billion to $127 billion
>cost of putting up all GPS satellites - $12 billion

It's self evident that the GPS system had more tangible benefits and cost half as much than the Apollo program, you can go down the line listing a dozen other programs with far better cost/benefit.

>> No.3745518

The LHC is not a waste of money if no Higgs boson is found. In fact, I secretly have been hoping they wouldn't find it because the Higgs mechanism hasn't admitted any physical principles that would let us engineer anti-gravity cars and warp drives. If inertia came from something else there's a chance it could be a lot more interesting and perhaps useful.

I know, I know. My wishful thinking has no place in physics. But, I'm allowed to dream aren't I?

>> No.3745521

>>3745440
NASA doesn't run the LHC faggot; the Europeans at CERN do.

NASA is the guys with the Mars rover and "satellites and telescopes" and shit

>> No.3745523

>>3745516
you're a dumb mother fucker.

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/

>> No.3745531

>>3745518
And of course if you're a Keynsian you believe that any government spending is useful

>> No.3745534
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>>3745518
"Whooaa boy, we have a dreamer here! Sorry kid! Humanity will never explore the stars, it's too big. Even if we built a huge spaceship, we'd vaporise as we left our solarsystem. Other planets in our solar sysrem are life-less and boring. Even if we made a really fast ship, going to the nearest star and back will take obscene amounts of time relative to earth because of time-dilation. Shit's fucked kid... shit's fucked."

>> No.3745535

>>3745531
because keynsians believe ANY government spending is useful?

you're a fucking idiot. if all you can do is generalize arguments to the point where you aren't even addressing the actual argument, you don't deserve the right to breathe.

just go die.

>> No.3745546

>>3745535
Seriously wasn't expecting that as a response.

Didn't Keynes himself say that during a recession the government should pay people to dig holes then fill them back in?

>> No.3745553

>>3745546
he didn't. if you have evidence to the contrary, post it up, moron.

>> No.3745557

All these arguments are the age-old "why do basic, non-goal seeking " research arguments, rehashed at the high school level.

We do this stuff and spend this money because man is a curious George, and we discover all kinds of things when we aren't even trying: the magic ingredient for Tide, penicillin, nuclear decay, the moons of Jupiter, the transistor, the cosmic microwave background, the Internet.

Get a clue. Every penny on open-ended research is money well spent.

>> No.3745561

>>3745557
Not when we could be giving it to the rich. We have to give rich people all the money or they won't give the rest of us jobs.

>> No.3745566

>>3745553
>As the stimulus bill wends its way through Congress, many observers have cited, either derisively or approvingly, John Maynard Keynes’ alleged observation that the government could generate economic growth just by hiring people to dig holes and fill them up. Unfortunately, the great British economist never said it, nor does it accurately reflect his policy recommendations.

>Keynes of course maintained that in a crisis caused by inadequate private willingness or ability to buy goods and services, it was the role of government to generate demand. But, he argued, merely hiring people to dig holes, while better than nothing, is not a reasonable way to do it.

>If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is. It would, indeed, be more sensible to build houses and the like; but if there are political and practical difficulties in the way of this, the above would be better than nothing.

Ok I misrepresented his views somewhat but in essence he did say it

>> No.3745569

>>3745566
all you do is misrepresent and then argue against the misrepresentation.

that is the exact thing that makes you an idiot and not worthy of life.

so, again sir, please go die.

>> No.3745571

how would discovering this particle benefit humanity anyway? Who cares, just stop funding them and use the money for real problems like feeding the homeless

>> No.3745573

>>3745546
Keynes said when times are good, gov't should confine itself to insuring companies aren't criminal organizations, and when TSHTF, build bridges and repair the infrastructure, and the debt takes care of itself. (BTW, our debt to GNP is 1:1, making it one of the best on the planet)

>> No.3745575

>>3745571
You're right. We should stop researching reality, since that can only give us a better grasp of EVERYTHING and how it works. Fuck discovering what reality is in essence. I mean, how useless would it be if we could actually harness gravity for energy?

Totally useless.

Let's just use the money to feed the homeless instead. That will solve a lot of problems. For a few months.

>> No.3745578

>>3745571
hey man homeless people suck.

>> No.3745581
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[ERROR]

>Why do they call it the "God particle"

Because it doesn't exist!

>> No.3745584

ITT: People do not know how science works.

If we have solid scientific evidence that the Higgs does not exist at the energies predicted, that's every bit as big as finding it would be.

Something is there, and if it's not the Higgs then that opens up possibilities its existence would have precluded.

>> No.3745589

>>3745581
you're awesome :)

>> No.3745592

>>3745569
>all you do is misrepresent and then argue against the misrepresentation.

The technical term for this brand of faggotry is "straw man argument."

>> No.3745597

>>3745592
oh, i know the technical term, but i'm obviously dealing with a shit-tier intellect. i've found that when dealing with morons, you have to use the simplest terms possible.

just throwing the names of logical fallacies around often turns the argument into one based on semantics. i'd much prefer to destroy the idiot using language the idiot can use.

>> No.3745610

LHC confirmed the existence of the QGP, and made a number of other notable discoveries
also, finding out that the higgs particle doesn't exist is a major find in and of itself
not a waste of monies lol

>> No.3745626

>>3745610
>confirmed the existence of the QGP
what? I haven't been keeping up with nuclear for the last 6 months or so. What did it show that RHIC hasn't?

>> No.3745628

>>3745597
the irony is I'm actually a Keynsian yet somehow my statement was viewed as a criticism of it

>> No.3745644

>>3745628

then be careful how you represent the things you espouse. the only thing worse than someone who misrepresents something to argue against it is someone who argues from an invalid point.

you're doing your argument and your philosophy a huge disservice by doing so.

you now know a little more about what keynes actually said.

>> No.3745645

>>3745628
half a quote is often worse than no quote

Keynes was both for spending and against it. In other words, if it works, leave it alone but keep an eye on it (regulation) and when it breaks (and it will break because capitalism is a fucked up system) be prepared to pour money into it, at the individual jobs level. The rich can - and do- take care of themselves.

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[ERROR]

>>3745238
>LHC has already produced hundreds of publications, most with groundbreaking results

Not my fucking fault you don't read OP

\thread

>> No.3745659

>>3745626
the LHC made it about 2x as hot and 2x the amount that was made at RHIC
LHC confirmed that it behaves as a superfluid and iirc the LHC's QGP had hints of a liquid-to-gas transition phase
now that they're up to full energy the LHC is going to do some more experiments with it when they go back to heavy ions

>> No.3745665

>>3745644
How did I misrepresent it? We're in a recession, people in the thread are calling the LHC a waste of money, the LHC is underground, people had to dig holes to make it, i mentioned a paraphrased line by keynes stating that even paying people to dig holes would stimulate the economy

it was just an offhanded comment bro

>> No.3745678

>>3745665

>>3745531
any

key word is any. my first response focuses on that.

keynes doesn't argue that any spending is "good". he does want focused spending under certain circumstances, and for actually beneficial projects, not just digging and filling holes.

we live in a time where the world is run by morons who will make the argument that keynes wants us to just spend money on anything, when that isn't his view.

that's why you should be careful how you word your arguments, and be sure you actually understand them, else the morons of the world will back you into a corner using your own words.

>> No.3745680

>hints of a liquid-to-gas transition phase
wow cool
thanks for the summary

>> No.3745687
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[ERROR]

>>3745680
any time bro

>> No.3745688

"Unless there is solid theoretical support of the theory, with several other ways to support this theory"
Well you see... wait what?

The HB was the most elegant theoretically sound and conceivably most beautiful way of explaining mass and hence gravity in general. That's how science works. You make a theory, theory produces hypothesis, hypothesis get tested. Often they fail, but if you don't test it there's now way of confirming or disproving something at that point science becomes religion... yuck...

>> No.3745693

>>3745688
you're arguing with people who actually believe in mythology bro.

it's not worth it.

>> No.3745698

>>3745688
>you make a theory

ONE MORE TIME, ALL YOU ILLITERATES (and thanx in advance for your support)

You 1) advance HYPOTHESIS 2)gather evidence and predict shit 3) experiment suceeds (all cheer)

Then and ONLY then do you have a "Theory"

SCiEnCE, can you pronounce it?

>> No.3745709

>>3745698
My real question is why are you so mad? The fact that i can speak 3 other languages other than my native one makes me automatically more "literate" than you. So what if i have few typos and a mistake in my thought process; i didn't spend 2 hours trying to think up a perfect response. I would suggest a nice warm beverage and positive thoughts; holding in so much anger can be bad for you.

>> No.3745713

>>3745688
>You make a theory, theory produces hypothesis

What the backward shit is this fuck?

Observe phenomena.
Form a hypothesis to explain the phenomena and make predictions.
Test hypothesis through experiment.
Rigorously verify results.
If experiments confirm hypothesis, you may have a theory.

>> No.3745717

>>3745709

Why so defensive?

>> No.3745718

>>3745698
P.S.
A theory makes predictions, which are tested and if proven right the theory is valid. You can have a theory without any proof but that's a shitty theory. So first you have to come up with a theory witch makes some testable predictions which are proven right or wrong by experiment.

>> No.3745720

>>3745717
More of a rational observation on the situation.

>> No.3745728

>>3745720

That was about as rational as a woman on the rag.

>> No.3745731

>>3745718
>proven right
>proven

NOPE

>> No.3745847

>>3745476

I'm going to fuck it

>> No.3745879

rob banks, start business, create well paid jobs. everybody wins. Robinhood economics

>> No.3746672

Guys don't give up.
I think they just need a bigger collider.