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/sci/ - Science & Math

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[ERROR] No.3720451 [Reply] [Original]

/v/irgin here. I was taking part in a thread arguing whether or not the human eye can tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps. I kinda want to get some kind of confirmation from /sci/ on this subject. I was also wondering if the human eye perceives movement in the real world in frames per second, and if so if there was any limit on how many frames per second the eye can perceive.

>> No.3720465

Blow it out your ass.

>> No.3720472

So, you just play videogames all day? What are you doing with your life?

>> No.3720478

24 fps is about optimal for viewing pleasure brah.

It is what movies are shown at.
Any faster and you will actually perceive it as being laggy, unless there is motion blur.

Anyway, There might be, but no one has found the answer.
The eyes does not perceive "frames", but a constant stream of light.

>> No.3720475

>>3720472
So, you just post on /sci/ all day? What are you doing with your life?

>> No.3720480

>>3720475
Discussing my major and excelling in the sciences and maths.

Jelly of my soon to be Masters degree, videofag?

>> No.3720482

>>3720480
Postdoc here.
I play videogames.

Why the hostility?

>> No.3720497
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[ERROR]

>Discussing my major
Creating biology threads.

>and excelling in the sciences and maths.
and helping with calc I homework problems.

>Jelly of my soon to be Masters degree, videofag?
Jelly of my advanced studies in alternative medicine?

>> No.3720515

>>3720475
>>3720472
>>3720480
>>3720497
I was asking out of pure curiosity, and I think it's a pretty valid question. Why all the sage bombing? Sorry if this isn't a religion thread.

>> No.3720528

>>3720478
wouldn't each photon be like another frame then?

>> No.3720534

Your eyes don't see like that, and your brain doesn't think like that.

>> No.3720535

>>3720515
Because videogames are for children.

>> No.3720541

>>3720528
Theoretically, yes.

>> No.3720554

>>3720535
Technically this isn't a vidya thread.

>> No.3720560

>>3720535
No, no they are not.
You, however, are a child so if your hypothesis was correct, you should be delighted.

>> No.3720573

There's no simple answer to OP's question... There's some discussion about this in the following wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

>> No.3720574

alright here is the deal.

the human eye does not have a fps rate it can see optimally at as such.


rather there are series of very important integrative mechanisms in the brain that have to convert various visual information into actual conscious sight.

as such a brain can tell the difference if you alternate black and white frames at 30 fps but not if you show them at 60 fps the movie appears constantly grey and devoid of colour.

also very fast moving objects can stutter ocassionaly at 30 fps. that is because usually your brain corrects for unsmooth motion because it does that naturally to correct for blinking. however then when such a motion occurs while blinking at slow frame rates a small stutter should be noticeable

>> No.3720604

>>3720574
so there really is a limit to the amount of frames per second the brain can process?

>> No.3720652

>>3720604
Yes.

Most of the fast-moving stuff you think you are seeing, you aren't actually seeing; the brain is filling in the (huge) gaps.

Flies, for example, have much better vision when it comes to speed. Our movements appear really slow to them. On the other side, they do not see details nearly as well as us.

There appears to be a consensus that all living beings that have eyes, either sacrifice motion for detail, or detail for motion. A living being requires a relatively big brain in order to process all the details its optics feeds it, and at higher speeds the brain simply cannot keep up.

>> No.3720664

>>3720652
hmm, I guess that's why dogs are color blind.

>> No.3720688

>>3720664
Dogs are not colour blind they see in beige and blue.

>> No.3720697

>>3720688
ok, color deficient.

>> No.3720795

Google "persistence of vision"

read henri bergson on memory (Time and Free Will: An Essay on the Immediate Data of Consciousness, & Matter and Memory )

shit will blow your tiny mind, brah

>> No.3720809

>>3720451
Yes, the human eye can tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps.
No, the human eye does not perceive movement in the real world in frames.

>> No.3720813

Can't work this out through the standard deviation of reaction tests?
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php..

On that scale to me it seems more than 16ms is a long time and having frames with 16ms between them would be just under 60fps.

I suppose a good test would be to have a light blink every 3 seconds or so for a minute. And then reducing the duration of the blinks after each minute test.

So to begin with the light would be on for 40ms each blink, then 30ms, 20ms, 10ms. And slowly try to pinpoint the lowest value of time you recognise the light was on.

Dividing 1000 by this value should give an optimal fps.

However going off into a less scientific analysis, professional gamers play better at 60fps, many gamers can tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps.

>> No.3720845

>>3720813
motion pictures are shot at 24 fps, video

transcoding of movies to video is done at 29,97 fps

your gamers 60fps is actual a frame rate of 24fps with a screen refresh rate of 60hz (a single frame refreshed repeated every 3 seconds, roughly)

>> No.3720850

>>3720845
*refreshed 3 times _per second_

>> No.3720851

My dad brought home a new tv. Looking at it, I thought "Why does this tv look so awesome?" It look unusually real. Turns out it had high refresh rate, 120 hz as opposed to the usual 60 or something. Not the same as frame rate, but this shows that the brain can tell the difference.

>> No.3720865

>>3720845

movies have blur artificially added to make up for the low frame rate, which was chosen because higher framerates make the video more fluid and "real" which makes the fake aspects more visible and can detract from the suspension of disbelief.

>> No.3720877

>>3720865
>deliberately add blur

you are ignorant and spread lies

>> No.3720881

>>3720877

have you never paused a movie? the fasteran objectis moving in a frame, the more blur is applied;pausing during a particularly action packed scene can end up with a blurry picture that makes no sense.

>> No.3720905

>>3720877
you are naive and spread ignorance

>> No.3720962

>>3720881
I make movies, you ignorant fool.

Have you never taken a picture of a fast moving object at 1/24 sec looked at the resulting still image and realized that you have a blurred mess for a product?

Cretin.

>> No.3721387
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[ERROR]

the other day i thought all existence was being buffered at a degree that i didnt know. i cant speak for other types of consciousness.
sometimes i think people will be cross cyborg vampires bioneural but clone fleshed and cloned heart who needs blood. i dunno if thats been said before. poetry is as creative as my liked lit goes.

>> No.3721390

http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html
http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html
http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html
http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html

>> No.3721421

>your gamers 60fps is actual a frame rate of 24fps with a screen refresh rate of 60hz (a single frame refreshed repeated every 3 seconds, roughly

Games are not movies, and they can go much higher than 60 fps. With old CRT monitors it was possible to play at real 120+ fps rate if your computer and monitor could pull it off.

Also, games need higher fps than movies due to absence of motion blur (newer games do have motion blur, tough).

>> No.3721543

What our eye perceive is not exactly "fps" but it updates different areas of our vision based on motion and change, and the brain just makes up the rest based on what it already got. The slower the change, the slower the fps can be.

Imagine that you would film a wall, 1 fps vs 1000 fps makes no difference due to the extremely small amount of change. While if you would film a moving car, a higher amount of fps I needed


To give you a number of how much we can perceive, look at these facts:

1. No one notices change in the fps when someone films an unmovable object due to lack of change.

2. Extreme change (a screen changes from all black to white for only one frame i.o. from no light to full light) can be perceived up to 300fps.

3. Extreme change (a screen changes from all white to black for only one frame i.o. from full light to no light) can be perceived up to 75fps.

3. Extreme change requiring identification of an image (a screen changes from all black to white with a picture for only one frame i.o. from no light to full light plus picture) can be perceived up to 220fps.


One must also remember that the brain compensates for the fps. It's better to be stuck at 30 fps in a game than to go up an down from 30 to 60 without any regulations due to the simple reason that you get used to what you have is you don't flux the quality. Take this for an example: http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html first look at the 15 fps(a bit choppy), then ook at 30 fps (not really choppy) and then look at 60 fps (fluid and nice). Now look back at the 30 fps, it feels much choppier due to the brain being used to 60 fps.

>> No.3721552

>Your eyes and brain don't see like that.

I just want to point out that even though the mechanisms shouldn't work this way, a common visual hallucination involves perceiving the world in a way that looks as if it's running at a lower frame rate.

I've experienced this myself a few times.

>> No.3721645 [DELETED] 

>>3721421
>games use high frame rates

I didn't know that, but then I don't do games. Must use a lot of GPU power. Oh, I get it. That's why you need 4 cores. Interesting.

Can you change the refresh rate on an LCD panel? I can't find any controls on my Asus VW246H to do that. Probably looking in the wrong place.

>> No.3721652

>>3721421
>games use high frame rates

I didn't know that, but then I don't do games. But I can certainly see how it would come in handy when stalking BEMs and whatnot. Must use a lot of GPU power. Oh, I get it. That's why you need 4 cores. Interesting.

Can you change the refresh rate on an LCD panel? I can't find any controls on my Asus VW246H to do that. Probably looking in the wrong place.