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/sci/ - Science & Math

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[ERROR] No.3662682 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /sci/

Why don't we teach apes and chimps the way of human, and then release them into the wild?

Seriously, we could do it on a fairly large scale, and see if the lessons we teach them spread down generations.

We could teach them how to make stone tools, spears, agriculture possibly, etc etc.

I doubt we'd get super intelligent creatures, but it would be great to have other species that we can interact with on a new level.

>> No.3662691

>>3662682

Because they'd become accustomed to our standard of living and would be incapable of surviving.

You'd have to teach them to use more tools in the wild, and even then, that doesn't mean they'll take the same evolutionary path we did.

>> No.3662687

Can yuo say war between species? Thank god the Neanderthals died off. It was them or us.

>> No.3662697

why dont they teach us ape shit? why should we be the ones doing all the work....

>> No.3662707

I believe it's been done, and there's speculation that it's why chimps have increasingly been seen using new types of tools. We've tainted our own research, as now we cannot know whether they invented it themselves or were taught by a chimp that worked with humans.

They are poor teachers and learners so it never spreads far and they don't retain really sophisticated behaviors and teach large numbers of their kind the way released dolphins do.

>> No.3662716

We tried.

Africa is still a shithole.

>> No.3662723

>>3662691
There are ape rehabilitation places where they get these guys ready to go back into the wild.

And of course it doesn't mean they'd take the same evolutionary path we did, but that makes it cool, the ultimate "what if?"

Also might offer us some insight on ourselves.

>>3662697
If we established better communication, with them, maybe they could!

>> No.3662730

>>3662682

Or... better idea. We take a buttload of chimps, preiodically test them for IQ. Breed the top 25%. Repeat ad nauseum, then see if we get super smart monkeys.

>> No.3662736

They arent good teachers OP chimps learn by trial and error, they observe someone doing something and they imitate. The chimps arent teachers.

>> No.3662747

>>3662730
That is cool too. That could be the first step!

But really, I think this idea has some cool possibilities.

>> No.3662749

>>3662730

That could work to some degree, as you are now putting selection pressure for intelligence.

However, it will probably be a long time before you see results, and there still is an upper limit that they will reach without a mutation that increases intelligence.

>> No.3662758
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>>3662730
>Or... better idea. We take a buttload of chimps, preiodically test them for IQ. Breed the top 25%. Repeat ad nauseum, then see if we get super smart monkeys.

Or you could do that with New Caledonian crows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbwRHIuXqMU

In all seriousness though Dolphins would probably be your best bet.

>> No.3662763

>>3662736
They're well learners, from what I understand. Just need to have them teach properly. Could we not do this?

>> No.3662764

>>3662730

You'll raise chimps that are good at taking IQ tests and nothing else.

>> No.3662784

Why would we do it in the first place? We've descended to a place of ascendancy over a timeline of years, through a completely natural means. It'd be like taking a car from the 1930's and converting the engine to a V8, testing after every implementable change. Waste of fucking time, unless you were looking at it from a anatomical/neurological perspective.

>> No.3662793

>>3662784
I'm more interested in how behavior will change than the evolutionary basis

>> No.3662800
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>>3662784
>Why would we do it in the first place?

With a completely different brain structure, an uplifted animal could see solutions to problems that humans could not (of course there would also still be solutions that humans could see that no others could). Basically, increasing the power of technological and scientific advancement for Earth civilization.

This also applies to art, perhaps much more so.

>> No.3662829

Also, if we want them to be able to relate with us, they'll need some way of communicating with us, so we'll also have to breed for pharynxes and tongues.

>> No.3662857

>>3662793

Err, what!? Same thing.

>>3662800

Please back this up with something that isn't bullshit. We learn everything from our genetic ancestry. We're built up on the inheritance of billions of years of learning and adaptation. We already use animals for their genetic traits. I think you're talking bullshit.

>> No.3662878

>>3662829
OP here
Sign language and written language work fine, I think.
Physiologically, I think they'll work fine. Gotta get em started soon though.

Basically, I want to go into the jungle, and be able to sign, or write, with these guys. Also, I"m sure we could teach them how to make shacks. They need fewer tools than us too, thanks to their incredible strength

>> No.3662889

This is a retarded thread, OP. So retarded. It's open ended thinking like this that will get you no where in life.

>> No.3662895

>>3662857
Not the same thing.

Evolution does not take place within a single generation.

>> No.3662897

>>3662878

>Monkeys
>Sign language

I don't think you understand how language works. It's a species specific trait. No other species, except possibly dolphins, have the faculty of language.

>> No.3662901

>>3662895

Who said it did?

>> No.3662906

>>3662878

Speaking is more efficient than sign language, and slightly more efficient than writing, so you will want a common speaking language though.

Also, when you say a species we can relate to, I immediately think of one that will be able to be at our level of understanding, as relationships with species that aren't able to understand what you are talking about are going to be missing a part of what makes said relationships good.

>> No.3662908

>>3662897
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmuu8UEi2ko

start watching

>> No.3662916

>>3662895

>evolution doesn't take place in the same generation
>evolution is "change in allele frequencies"

Lrn2evolutionarybiology

>> No.3662921

>>3662901
I'm interested in what behaviors are shown over a single generation

>>3662906
That would be some heavy shit if we got them to talk

>> No.3662923

And all this breeding of the highest IQ shit is bollocks without a environment in which they can sustain, as well as maintain. They're wild animals. You may have just finished reading the biggest attribution to pop-science, but if you fail to see the massive progressive leap over such a large time frame... Well, I feel sorry for the lost sense of realism you lack.

>> No.3662937

>>3662923
OP
I never said anything about breeding for the highest IQ. I simply think it would be cool to have monkeys using more tools, possibly making shelter

>> No.3662952

>>3662908

>Nouns
>Language

Koko couldn't master the grammar of a 2 year old. There's more to language than memorising symbols.

>> No.3662969
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>>3662952
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXKsPqQ0Ycc

>> No.3662985

The Darwin of Species- Charles Origin.

>> No.3663015
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>Researchers painstakingly teach smartest apes to speak in sign language without any grammar

>Dolphins easily learn a language created specifically for dolphin/human communication so we can meet them halfway, includes syntax and other grammatical conventions

Are apes even trying?

>> No.3663020

>>3662969

>Sequence of concepts
>Grammatical sentence

Yeah, no. A two year old human can understand word order, rudimentary tense, mood and binding. Koko and the other "speaking" apes just string signs they know together in a haphazard manner.

>> No.3663021

>>3662784
>Why would we do it in the first place?
Because the more the merrier. Communicating is satisfying for humans.

>> No.3663026

>>3663015
It's over apes are finished

>> No.3663036

>>3663020
Seems good enough for me

>> No.3663035

O.P this happened. One of the smartest chimps of the 60's was 'liberated' by animal right activists and freed into the wild... only to be killed by the wild chimps.

>> No.3663039

>>3663015
source on dolphin language

>> No.3663073

apes are too greedy to embrace structural language

however, they do communicate and they do make tools, and enhance their nutritional efforts via spices

dolphins (whales) on the other hand have a "rapist" wit and an advanced capacity for abstraction and context, unlike any other animal other than humans

>> No.3663075

>>3663039

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz3sQsTE5tA

>> No.3663081

>>3662682

Sorry, but you're a spastic. Some of you fucker should read about the brain, and it's development. Specifically the left side and it's function of vocabulary.

ITT: Stupid ideology, lack of under pinning knowledge (mine of which, is limited, and I'm still slaying these stupid notions). Monkeys probably learn by symbolism, as said before, with sign language.

On another note, there's not the time of place to introduce monkeys into our society. We can barely manage house hold fucking pets. Who needs an order of monkeys.

>> No.3663090

>>3663081

'pologies for grammar failings.

>> No.3663099

>>3663039

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1357611/Theyve-really-clicked-Dolphins-scientists-tal
k-using-shared-primitive-language.html

Pardon the source, yes it's a legit study. There's a vid somewhere of the dolphin understanding sentences structured in different ways using the same words ordered differently to mean different things, something apes can't grasp.

>> No.3663106

>>3663081
Humanity always falls short. The only way to progress is to raise the stakes and challenges. We'll still fall short for those, but we might just make it for the older ones.

>> No.3663123

>>3663081
Chimps can use basic language, yet language that is more advanced than all other animals(except dolphins and humans). No one here expects them to be masters of it, we just want the spread of basic language and more advanced tool making around jungles. That is all.

And yes, I have read about the brain, quite extensively. I currently intern for my college's head neurobiology professor.

>> No.3663135

>>3662687
Don't lie. If the Neanderthals made it to modern times, we'd have to recognize them as us under this politically correct paradise we're living in today.

>> No.3663140

>>3663123

Well, try and open some synapses, dude. You wouldn't fuck with an ecosystem like that.

>> No.3663162

>>3663140
You bet I fucking would. They're a relatively species(when not threatened)

Also, we're MILLIONS of years ahead of them. You bet we would kick their ass if it came down to it

>> No.3663178

I think we rather should genetically modify dolphins to have prehensiles limbs (in addition to their genitals), then teach them to use tools.

Because they're more fuckable than apes.

>> No.3663212

>>3663140

I have to ask, why are you so keen on using the naturalistic fallacy?

>> No.3663214

>>3663123

What makes you think that the "language" chimpanzees use to communicate with humans would be of any use in communicating with other chimpanzees?

>> No.3663230

>>3663214
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55put3MLZcw

Words such as: safe, bad, good, food, nice, mean, stay away, etc. could be used between monkey tribes, or people interacting with them

>> No.3663242

>>3663230

Why would it help? Monkeys can say stay away well enough as it is. Their system of communication is sufficient for their needs. If you introduce a new means of communicating, you need to make it an evolutionary advantage otherwise it's not going to last.

>> No.3663260
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>>3662857
>I think you're talking bullshit.

You think correctly. I'm just spouting off whatever bullshit science-fiction idea comes to mind. Fuck, how stupid of me. I should take this thread about making super-chimps more seriously.

>> No.3663264

>>3663242
Not just go away, but also come here. Very basic trading systems could also be established

>> No.3663327

>>3663264

How would trading help? A society needs a certain level of complexity before that gives an advantage.

>> No.3663341

>>3663327

>Doesn't know about the complex system monkeys already have


Really? Go look up chimpanzee politics.

>> No.3663359

>>3663341

Tell me how trading would help. Maybe we should introduce ass sniffing into human society. It works for dogs, right?

>> No.3663378

>>3663359

Let's see, how does a society get advantages from trading between individuals?

>> No.3663429

>>3663260
>I should take this thread about making super-chimps more seriously.

oh u

>> No.3663439

>>3663378

A society of ants does not. A society of amoeba does not. A society of fish does not. You're claiming if something works for humans it will work for other species. I think that's an unwarranted assumption.

>> No.3663491

>>3663439

Fish and ameboa don't have societies, and ant colonies work from an entirely different basis.


Also, none of those are similar because they're not even from the same order (some aren't even from the same phylum or kingdom)

We're talking about species that are extremely close to each other cladistically, not to mention the fact that most primate societies function extremely similarly to early human societies.

>> No.3663509
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>>3663439
It already fucking works between chimps.

And it WOULD benefit nearly community. Even cross-species trading would benefit animals.

Some do in a basic way already. You know those fish that eat the shit off a shark?
>Bam
The clown fish that lives in a sea anemone? He keeps that shit clean, and is exchanged a shelter.
>Holy shit, it just got real up in here
You know honey? Bees make that. And in the process of gathering nectar, they spread pollen around.
>Need some alo-vera for that burn?
How about monkeys that groom other monkeys in exchange for not only the bugs they get to keep, but also the FRUITS AND NUTS THEY HAVE BEEN OBSERVED TRADING
>Is it just me? Or am I on a whole other level than you?

Mutualism is the basic trading. It works.It fucking works

>> No.3663534

>>3663491

>not to mention the fact that most primate societies function extremely similarly to early human societies.

Gorillas live in harems, Chimps in large tribes, Orang Utangs either solitary or small family groups. Which one exactly functions extremely similarly to early human societies?

>> No.3663547

>>3663509

>Mutualism is the basic trading. It works.It fucking works

If they already have trading, what's the point of giving them language to allow them to trade? You know damn well you were referring to the type of trading they don't already have, or your entire argument would have been vacuous.

Then again it probably is. You just want to pretend monkeys can learn language. Pick up a linguistics textbook or something.

>> No.3663567

>>3663534

Early human societies:

-large tribes of hunter gatherers that worked communally to raise children. Alpha male mates more than betas, while betas work to maintain the group.

Honestly, most primates have extremely similar societal structures (except for the occasional solitary primates, though those are rare in comparison to the social species.)

>> No.3663571

>>3663547
>You're claiming if something works for humans it will work for other species. I think that's an unwarranted assumption.

You proposed that trading between animals wouldn't work, simply because it does for humans.

And yes, having monkeys develop larger trades, possibly through taught language, would be fucking cool. It would benefit them. Even one tribe of monkeys, trading a resource with another tribe.

Would it work? Doubt it. But it would be beneficial

>> No.3663598

>>3663547

>Hurr item introduced has to be completely new
>Hurr we can't simply be making a system more efficient

A nuanced language allows for more efficient trading by allowing for a more accurate description of what one 'wants' (also note this allows for more efficient transfer of concepts as well).

>> No.3663617
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>>3663598
OP here, this is for you