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/sci/ - Science & Math

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[ERROR] No.3655488 [Reply] [Original]

Just got in an argument with a buddy of mine because I said that I would never use "transport" technology if it were to become available.

In Star Trek, the transporter is backed by a powerful computer that maps the locations of all the particles that constitute your body. That matter is then (somehow) converted to energy (light/photons) and then transmitted to a location where the object/person being transported would recompile that person based on the pattern data from when the person was "mapped".

There are a couple of other hypothetical technologies that could "transport" physical objects. One such theoretical machine would (just like the star trek transporter) map you particle for particle, transmit that data to the transport location, and reconstitute you by using raw materials on the other end. It's just a very fancy way of copying something. For it to be "transported" all you would need to do is destroy the original on the broadcast/transmission end.

My argument is that once you've been disassembled on the subatomic level, you cease to exist (if you, like me, believe that your consciousness is a byproduct of electro-chemistry). All that is happening is a very fancy copy is being made. This copy would have all of your memories (assuming that memories too are byproducts of electro-chemistry) and would be unaware that it's a copy of a person who was just de-atomized; there is no way to know for sure what happened to the original... unless you are the original. That's just a risk I would not be willing to take.

>> No.3655497

i have often thought about this (as have many) and it's a useful thought experiment to question what consciousness and identity actually are.

>> No.3655496
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>>3655488
By saying that you are implying a soul of some sort, faggot OP.

you don't believe in souls, do you?
faggot

>> No.3655501
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>>3655496
TFTD bump for faggot op

>> No.3655499

So you're afraid of a distinction without a difference?

>> No.3655509

Goddamn it, stop copypasting. This same thing was posted on /b/ not five fucking minutes ago.

>> No.3655510

>>3655496
nope

i'm interested in what the self is.

such a machine could, one assumes, reproduce two copies. which one is "you"

>> No.3655506

>>3655499
/thread.

>> No.3655508

dont worry, even if such technology will exist, it wont be in your life time.

>> No.3655515

>>3655488
Just as well that it won't (and can't) happen then, isn't it?

>> No.3655516
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>>3655510
Troll.

>> No.3655518

what if transport device malfunctions and you wake up and see a copy of yourself?

>> No.3655520

>>3655518
>now none of us will be virgins.jpg

>> No.3655523
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>>3655488
>losing your soul in a teleporter
Miriam Godwinson detected.

>> No.3655530

quantum mechanics forbids such a device

>> No.3655536

>>3655516

He is not trolling. If you cannot see the mystery there than you are just stupid.

You step into a machine.

The machine makes two exact copies of your present state and transports them to two places. Which one is you?

This question points out an underlying flaw in our definition of SELF and CONSCIOUSNESS. On one hand, each copy would feel as though they were the original. Neither of them can present evidence to contradict the other. This being the case, neither of them can be You.

>> No.3655538
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>unless you are the original. That's just a risk I would not be willing to take.

HOLY FUCK JUST DEAL WITH IT

WHAT THE FUCK IS IMPORTANT ABOUT BEING "ORIGINAL" OR A "COPY"

JUST BEING AN "IMITATION" DOES NOT MAKE YOU A "FAKE", THERE'S NOTHING SAYING A REPRODUCTION IS ANY WAY INFERIOR TO "THE ORIGINAL"

>> No.3655540

>>3655538

You die. Something else is alive and thinks it is yourself. You are okay with this?

>> No.3655541

>teleport across galaxy to tour alien planets
>you yourself never experience it, only your copy does

>> No.3655542

>>3655536
the me right now only feels it is the same person as the me of five minutes ago. and i haven't been through a machine.

i'm okay with this

>> No.3655549

>>3655536
Idiot.

They both were you. They both will continue being different yous.

There is no some kind of 'over-you' the inheritance of which would define 'True You'.

>> No.3655552
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I'm not going to have my molecules scattered all over space.
I'll stick to the shuttlecraft

>> No.3655553
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>>3655540

Yup.

What defines "me" if there's a perfect reproduction?

What makes this one "me" and the other one "not me"?

As it has all my memories and experiences, and even the structure is perfectly built to exactly how I have lived, it is me.

>> No.3655556

>>3655488
That's not how transporters work, don't be retarded, they use a matter stream on a subspace carrier wave.

>> No.3655565

Bones?

>> No.3655570

you would cease to exist; you personally would die. you would be killed and a new person would take your place. the you that exists now would die.

But I wouldn't really mind throwing my life away if I knew an exact copy of me got it instead.

>> No.3655568
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>>3655488
>That matter is then (somehow) converted to energy (light/photons) and then transmitted

Nope. You need to watch more start trek son. Your energy is not transmitted, it is stored, to be used later by whatever the fuck needs energy.

A signal is sent to another transproter, containing your info. It doesn't however contain your energy.

>> No.3655567

troll. shits on /b/ too

stole his copy pasta from big bang theory

>> No.3655569

1st define personal identity in general, then stop bitching.

>> No.3655582

>>3655488

So? Your stream of consciousness ends, big whoop. It ends every time you go to sleep.

Yes, it means "you" will die as a conscious entity in the moment you fall asleep.

>> No.3655588

>>3655582
Can't sleep.

Clowns'll eat me.

>> No.3655591

>>3655556
so close
>>3655555

>> No.3655597

>A signal is sent to another transproter, containing your info
um... beaming down to a planet?

>> No.3655601

>>3655582

Is there even any proof that it existed at all prior to the present?

>THE PAST DOES NOT EXIST

>> No.3655603

>>3655582

what? there is a clear difference between going to sleep and being de-atomized. you can't just simply compare the two and think they are exactly alike

>> No.3655614

>>3655488

Yes op, i have thought the very same. You die and are simply being cloned. YOU are dead YOUR consciousness is gone..
No reason to believe that YOUR inherent awareness would somehow transport to the other body for no reason. Because obviously if there were clones you wouldnt be aware in yourself and the clone would you? So no reason to "be " the clone just because the original died.
So yeah, that shit sucks i cant fucking believe they use that technology in star trek and dont even question it fucking cunts pseudo science broscience shit. Worst show ever fucking giant massive paradox giant plothole in right in one of the key things from the series fffffffs.

>> No.3655617

>>3655601

Retard detected.

>> No.3655624

>>3655588

Also, slipping into sollipsism here but "you" have no proof at all for your memories being true, and not just artificial implants. If you dont let new memories form you will stay "you" . Forever.

See anterograde amnesia. Its the most dire malady of the mind you can be afflicted with. There was an old an suffering from it and on the doctors advice he kept a journal. His only entries were "I`m awake at least!" "I`m most definitely awake now! "for the last time I`m fully awake" with a few minutes between entries.

Combine this with severe retrograde amnesia and you can truly live for the moment and enjoy small things in life, because you will never remember anything else and you will never have the intent to ever do it. You will remain "you" forever, unchanged.

>> No.3655636

>>3655603

Show me a functional real life teleporter and we can compare the two properly.

Until that, yes, its very similar. Similar enough for a thought experiment.

And we ARE throught experimenting here instead of flinging shit like monkies, right?

>> No.3655653

>>3655624

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Wearing

if this ever happens to me, I will kill myself

this is fucking living hell

>> No.3655658

>>3655541
that's my problem with this whole transport business

>> No.3655697

>>3655530
>>3655530

Can't believe that it took this long for this point to be brought up. The uncertainty principle that we can not know a particles definite speed and definite position simultaneously. The human body (nor anything else) could never be mapped particle by particle.

>> No.3655724

>>3655536
there is no me, not now or then. We are all the same shit. Who doesnt understand can go to hell. Still we feel that I am I but it's just brain making stuff up.

>> No.3655725
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>>3655488 map the locations of all the particles that constitute your body.

Heisenberg would like a word with you.

>> No.3655840

>>3655568

That is insane, it means that the Enterprise is in some way powered by the lifeforce of its extinct crew members. Dark Trek.

>>3655697

My understanding of how the technology of how the technology works is that your pattern i.e. a set of fourier wave functions that describe your physical (as well as your brain) frequencies are stored in a buffer and set to another location via subspace (whatever that is).

The fact that you only need a transporting device at one end of the signal e.g. when beaing down to a planet, impliies that the transporter is more like a wormhole generator than anything else. This begs the question. Why not just build giant transporting devices and send starships, goods etc. directly all over the galaxy, cutting out the need for wasteful dilithium crystal based warp drive technology?

Fuck'd if I know.

>> No.3655859 [DELETED] 

Even though this couldn't happen, it raises a very interesting question regarding how we define what we experience as our consciousness. Quantum physicists have proven that 98% of the atoms in our bodies are replaced within a year. For example, your body is constantly producing more blood cells. You even have an entirely new skeletal system within 3 months. We are always fundamentally different than we were at any point in the past, yet this is so contrary to what we perceive in our minds. We each view the world as a collection of separate entities, when in reality science has show that we are all connected by various forces at the most miniscule levels are we are essentially all made up of the same stuff. How and why is it then that the phenomena of our consciousness occurs?

>> No.3655909
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[ERROR]

Even though this couldn't happen, it raises a very interesting question regarding how we define what we experience as our consciousness. Quantum physicists have proven that 98% of the atoms in our bodies are replaced within a year. For example, your body is constantly producing more blood cells. You are always losing hair and skin and growing more in it's place. You even have an entirely new skeletal system within 3 months. We are always fundamentally different than we were at any point in the past, yet this is so contrary to what we perceive in our minds. We each view the world as a collection of separate, static entities, when in reality science has show that we are all connected by various forces at the most miniscule levels and we are essentially all made up of the same stuff. How and why is it then that the phenomena of our consciousness occurs?

>> No.3655937
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>>3655488
Someone should ask riker. Just make sure you know which one.

>> No.3655967

>>3655636

you go to sleep : you loose consciousness but brain activity remains and subconsciousness takes over.

you teleport : you loose consciousness and brain activity.

i can't really see how the teleported person is in fact the very same or just a clone. then again we lack the proper understanding of the brain to make an accurate prediction.

so my final answer is: unless solid evidence convince me that i will survive teleportation and not just kill me with a perfect clone running around i will err on the side of caution.

>> No.3655968

>>3655488

"There is this one way to do things in science fiction that kills you, therefore, I will never use the technology if it became available regardless of what method it actually uses because I think I know how it works"
I get that right?

>>3655725
Everyone LOVES to mention Heisenberg but they always forgot the second part of the uncertainty principal. The uncertainty is relative to planks constant, meaning, it is FUCKING TINY. For all we know, you could be off by a little bit when placing the atoms and shit would just snap back into place because it wants to be in the lowest energy state.

>> No.3656187

>>3655968
In order to record the position of a particle to the Planck constant you must lose the ability to know anything about the velocity of the particle. If the velocity of the electrons in your heart become randomized or stopped you will suffer a heart attack. Many other problems in other parts of the body.

>> No.3657091

>>3655725
>>3656187
You don't need to know 100 % exact