/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.3618213]

So I'm sure this would probably fit better in /x/
But I know if anyone can understand the source of my rage it would be /sci/

So is anyone else sick of the way extraterrestrials are always portrayed in popular culture? Hell even in most scientific documentaries discussing them

They usually take from our biology
Similar limbs
Similar organs
Similar body structures
Wouldn't the chances of such convergent forms be astronomical?
Limbs could be similar
And even evolving eyes doesn't seem to far fetched
But things like organs, bones, and outside structures seem like pretty big stretches
Life evolving on an entirely different planet, maybe even undergoing an entirely different abiogenesis
They could be radically different in comparison to us

Or am I missing something? Is there a common path life will take when it starts?
would life naturally take to an arthropod-like form? Or even to a tetrapod-like form later on?

[Anonymous No.3618223]

I doubt they would look much like us.

[Anonymous No.3618242]

Yeah, it's almost guaranteed that aliens would not have any shape resembling a humanoid. There's no reason why they would be bipedal or only have four limbs. Having eyes in the front of the face is also something you really only see in predators; if the alien species in question were a prey species they would most likely have eyes on the sides of their heads. It's also very unlikely that they would hear the same exact frequencies that humans do or see the same light wavelengths. Their language could rely on a completely different set of concepts (maybe they don't have adjectives, or maybe they have some sort of part of speech that humans can't comprehend due to it not existing in any human language) or a method of communication completely alien to humans altogether (god forbid they communicate solely using ultraviolet bioluminescence).

And that's just the obvious stuff. No reason why their genetic material would use the same bases that life on Earth uses for example.

[Anonymous No.3618243]

OMG THANK YOU
Like although shows like doctor who are awesome, it irritates me when like ALL aliens are humanoid shape, I mean the chances of 100's of species evolving light detectors (eyes) exactly the same as us, the exact same grabbing utensils (hands) nose brain ears (not to mention hearing the same wavelength and seeing along the same electromagnetic spectrum) AND COMMUNICATION THROUGH BLOODY VOICEBOX MOUTH
ALSO why are all aliens suited for planets with the same pressure and atmosphere? Why cant life develop in other ways apart from requiring oxygen?
In reality, it would be so much more varied, so much more weirder (in our eyes) and so much more awesome

[Anonymous No.3618246]

>>3618243
>>3618242 here
wow we basically thought the exact same think, great minds think alike ;)

[Anonymous No.3618248]

>thought the exact same think
>great minds

[Anonymous No.3618249]

>>3618243
It would be hilarious if the first sentient alien life we run across evolved on a planet with an atmosphere comprised of 25% chlorine gas.

[Anonymous No.3618253]

>>3618246
> 1+1 = 2
OMG I THOUGHT THAT TOO! GREAT MINDS

[Anonymous No.3618255]

>>3618249
Lol... Doesn't know chlorine gas is poisonous, or just troll?

[Anonymous No.3618257]

>>3618213
OP, people are going to say stupid, uninformed things like this:
>Yeah, it's almost guaranteed that aliens would not have any shape resembling a humanoid. There's no reason why they would be bipedal or only have four limbs.
But that's not really true at all. There is a reason we, and everything else, looks the way it looks; evolution. Our forms are crafted by the evolutionary process, and it seems to have been more than successful. Think about it, nearly every single mammal, amphibian, lizard and fish have similar body structures; a head on the end of a spine with a rib cage, with equally numbered and sized limbs on each side of the body. Hell, even our faces all look something alike: Forehead, two eyes, nose, mouth, lower jaw that is hinged on the skull, with ears on the sides. Why is everything so similar? Because it works, because that design has been tested through a billion different species over hundreds of millions of years and has endured longer than any other structure.

I have no doubt that evolution would act similarly on other worlds, and would craft a variety of species roughly similar to what we see here on Earth.

[Anonymous No.3618261]

>>3618242

depends on the environment

on earthlike planets, given that life starts the same way, and with laws of physics being the same everywhere its not unreasonable to think so life is bound to be shaped in a similar way

not the same mind you because of the chance factor but face it, the bipedal form is a vastly beneficial one

It's probable that life needs a certain set of preexisting conditions to spring up - like gravity temperature etc and if that is so there's bound to be similarities.

We more or less know how celestial bodies form all over the universe and I see no reason for life not to follow

lolsilicon lifeforms are all well and good in star trek but in the real universe there are certain sets of rules to follow

[Anonymous No.3618264]

>>3618257
The thing you dont understand is that evolution is based on molecules. The reason most higher earth forms are so simmilar is because we have simmilar molecules. Now the difference between human Hemoglobin and say a horses hemoglobin would be quite small, but combine that with the difference between every one of the thousands of molecules and you get the huge differences between a horse and a human.

The horse is still simmilar to a human though right? 2 eyes, heart, hair ect... Now picture an alien, based on probably entirely foreign molecules and compounds. Protiens that dont exist anywhere on earth, gene sequences that simply never appeared in terrestrial DNA. That would create life forms so different from us there is little chance of them possessing 2 eyes, a heart and hair dont you think?

[Anonymous No.3618272]

It has been speculated that intelligence capable of leading to space faring technology requires taking certain evolutionary pathways, in such a way that you're almost certainly to end up with organisms with a certain set of physiological traits such as bipedalism and having forward facing eyes with parallax vision.

>also implying space faring civilizations will retain puny biological bodies and not be superior cybernetic organisms

[Anonymous No.3618275]

>>3618255
>Lol... Doesn't know chlorine gas is poisonous, or just troll?

Chlorine gas is poisonous to humans.

This thread is not about humans.

[Anonymous No.3618276]

>>3618264
I like how you claim I don't understand evolution, even though nothing I said was wrong, and you continued to post incorrect information.

>Now picture an alien, based on probably entirely foreign molecules and compounds.

The problem here is that in order for life as we know it to exist, we absolutely must have very specific molecules. You change up these molecules even slightly, and the chance of any life developing whatsoever diminishes rapidly. You can't just say, "But moar molecules!", because there are extremely specific and delicately balanced molecular formulas necessary for life to even have a fighting chance, let alone evolve into the biosphere we have today.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3618282]

>>3618213
It's hard to say.

Consider this though. Look at the mammals. Because of geographic isolation, we have had roughly three different experiments in history of the evolution of the mammals, Australian, American, and European/African whatever. They each evolved independently, but we find amazingly similar creatures each filling similar niches in similar ways.

Also, consider something simpler like the eye. The eye has evolved a dozen plus different times independently. It has also evolved differently. Path dependence. In the human eye, the nerves are in the inside of the eye, blocking the retina. In octopi and similar, the nerves are on the outside of the eye. Similar end effect, but a somewhat different path to get there.

[Anonymous No.3618289]

op, lrn 2 art.

sterotypical aliens with the giant heads and huge eyes are an exaggerated human form.

giant eyes and heads denote powerful intelligence and perceptive abilities. long graceful fingers denote dexterity and control. the other features are either featureless or diminuitive because those features aren't important.

they represent curious, emotionless, intelligent, 'inhuman' invaders.

the aliens are symbolic for human beings. they are metaphorical constructs, just like fairies, ogres and elves.

[Anonymous No.3618298]

>>3618264
There are reasons why evolution has led to two eyes, heart and hair. Have a look at the marsupials. A completely independent evolutionary pathway but many shared traits with other mammals. The conditions for life is restricted, and intelligent life even more restricted. It is highly probable that intelligent extraterrestrials would share common traits with us.

[Anonymous No.3618300]

>>3618276
Note I said molecules not atoms. A molecule can be anything from glucose to a massive RNA ribosome.

And as far as requiring very specific molecules, earth life is so diverse in molecular biology it's undoutable that planets with different environmental conditions would have drastically different molecules for new functions. Think of the plethagora of different ways animals, plants, fungi and bacteria use to deal with simmilar problems. Animals consume molecules to get chemical energy by digesting and fermenting them, Plants use photosynthesis to split H20 using specialised molecules, some plants and animals do both! Not to mention the incredible variety in bacteria.

So saying that its impossible for novel molecules to evolve in drastically different environments is unintelligent.

[Anonymous No.3618301]

Who says aliens will even possess our senses?

Who says we'll share the same emotions?

Who says we'll even have vaguely similar thought processes?

We'll more than likely be so different we won't be able to comprehend anything about each other.

[Anonymous No.3618307]

If it makes you feel better OP, there are non-humanoid examples from fiction though I agree the number is far too small.

[Anonymous No.3618314]

because humans can't relate to something that they don't understand

[Anonymous No.3618321]

>>3618307

Lem always does aliens well

Trouble with that guy is he's sometimes way too smart for the average reader and that humbly includes me

Like with His Master's Voice, jesus christ dat book. At least half went over my head or at least it succeeded in creating that impression magnificently.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3618326]

>>3618298
>>3618282
Also, ~brofist~ for exact same argument.

[Anonymous No.3618327]

>>3618300
But the molecules we have now were formed by physical processes that would most likely be replicated on other planets that had life as well.

[Anonymous No.3618341]

>>3618275
Its poisonous to humans because its poisonous... Put a dog in a room full of chlorine gas and see what happens.

[Anonymous No.3618346]

>>3618341
I should say its poisonous to earth biology.

Doesn't mean that an extraterrestrial would be harmed by it.

[Anonymous No.3618351]

>>3618346
I'm fairly sure some earth organisms have resistances to chlorine.

If not then I'm sure some have hydrochloric acid buffers which circumvent the effects.

[Anonymous No.3618380]

I rage every time somebody comes along and insists that every alien have to be oh so different from us.

If we look at every time life have been driven nearly extinct we see that the same basic shapes arises again and again, even when the new dominant are extremely far removed from the previous line of animals.

And then people say that they live on different planets with different chemistry. Its not weird that the same shapes arises on the same planet.

Let me tell you this: If you rank the 10 most common elements in the universe and then rank the 10 most common elements in our body they are, with the exception of helium identical. Same with our planet.

Thus most planets are going to have similar compositions as ours.

Furthermore is the fact that carbon is the most versatile element. It can form a larger variation of molecules than all the other elements together.

As such its not unreasonable to assume that an aliens body structure is mainly made of carbon like we are and since water is extremely versatile in making fluids its bodily fluids based on water.


As such its likely that most aliens will live in the same basic conditions as ours and have their biology and shape being somewhat similar.

[Anonymous No.3618399]

If we ever encounter an alien civilization, it is exceedingly unlikely that they would be at the same stage of technological development as us. Either the would be far more primitive (cave aliens), or far more advanced. In the latter case, they are likely to have discarded their biological bodies in favour of superior artificial constructs. The advantage of such constructs is that they can be designed from scratch, whereas natural selection is restricted to modifying that which came before. The aliens would in other words have whatever shape most convenient to their motivations.

[Anonymous No.3618404]

>>3618399

what you don't realize is that organic bodies are FAR more efficient machines than clunky metal hulls

there likely won't be a cyborg phase at all while instead we perfect biology itself

[Anonymous No.3618420]

>>3618404
>what you don't realize is that organic bodies are FAR more efficient machines than clunky metal hulls
>there likely won't be a cyborg phase at all while instead we perfect biology itself

I said "artificial constructs" not "Hollywood cyborgs". The constructs could be biological in nature. And even so, biological bodies are just machines that incorporate nanotechnology. The difference is that they were designed through natural selection rather than intelligent goal oriented engineering.

[Anonymous No.3618457]

>>3618404
>organic bodies
>efficient machines

How's those nooptrics, blood vessels bursting in vacuum outer space, death by cosmic radiation, constant need for food and sleep working out for you?

[Anonymous No.3618462]

>>3618380
How about jelly fish?

[Anonymous No.3618467]

>>3618462
This should be obvious, but you're obviously not so bright. "Us" refers to Earth organism.

[Anonymous No.3618476]

>>3618467
>Jelly fish doesn't belong to "Earth organism"
>Jelly fish not part of "US"
>Jelly fish alien.

[Anonymous No.3618486]

>>3618476
Exactly my point. You misunderstood.

[Anonymous No.3618488]

couldnt It even be possible that there planet could be like earth, except some of the animals there (what resemble animals here like maybe a lion or rhino or something ) are the intelligent creatures

[Anonymous No.3618494]

>>3618486
What if the adapation of life is different in aliens?
What if they don't need muscles or water?

Does alien have to have the same traits now?

[Anonymous No.3618498]

There is no universal standard for life, it is highly varied as evidenced by our own world.

There are a few common traits that we would expect in extraterrestrial life, however, and these are:

Cephilization (Pushing of the sensory organs towards the front of the organism)
We expect this, because throughout evolutionary time, we have observed that it is a biological advantage for predators in aiding them to seek out their prey.

Symmetry (*roughly* paired appendages)
We expect this because their is a biological advantage in terms of ease of locomotion

Hand-like appendages
In order for intelligence to be selected for, it would need to gain a biological advantage from manipulating it's environment.

Leg-like appendages
In order to free up it's hands, it would likely have some form of upright gait.


But there are a bunch of things we don't have much reason to expect:

Pentadactle limbs
Same hole for breathing and eating
Appendage-free head
Neck
Human sexual organs

In all honesty, ET was pretty spot-on so far anatomy is concerned :P

[Anonymous No.3618506]

>>3618476
> no jelly, not fish,
> alien jelly fish likely
> intelligent jelly fish not likely
> not space traveling

[Anonymous No.3618512]

>>3618498
but if they live on a planet what has a different type of physics due to gravity they may not even need legs

[Anonymous No.3618517]

>>3618512
>>3618506

See what I mean when I say Jelly fish.

[Anonymous No.3618518]

another thing is this
if there planet is far away from the sun then they could all look like our deep sea creatures

pic related,for all we know it could look like that but have a brain or some sort of organ what makes it intelligent .

[Anonymous No.3618525]

>>3618243
Although if we were to come in contact with such aliens, they would have to have some sort of " Grabbers". How else would you make and use tools?

[Anonymous No.3618532]

>>3618518
With different gravitational field, I won't be surprise with flying jelly fish with intelligence higher than man.

[Anonymous No.3618538]

>>3618532

[Anonymous No.3618541]

>>3618532

[Anonymous No.3618550]

>>3618532
thats another thing why always presume there clever than man ?

Also doesnt any one ever think just because they can visit our planet doesn't mean that they are more intelligent than us ?

For all we know there planet could be fucking awfull for them and they may not have any emotions.
So they have jsut concentrated all there energy on getting the fuck out and moving to some other planet

[Anonymous No.3618557]

Floatation is groovy - even a jellyfish could tell you dat

[Anonymous No.3618558]

>>3618550
or they could just biological robots traversing space indefinetly until they find some form of advanced life.

WHO EVER MIGHT KNOW

[Anonymous No.3618562]

THANK YOU

this is what i always have thought of as annoying in absolutely every piece of popular culture ever.

why is it that when supposed to make an intelligent race everyone always goes for a reskinned human? this also happens in fictional non-alien races.

do people really think that only humans are capable of intelligence?

[Anonymous No.3618567]

>>3618550
It's possible, but I would like to see intelligent floating jelly fish on Earth, speaking in an universal lanugage that HOLY FUCK... every human can understand and comprehend.

[Anonymous No.3618571]

>>3618550
Horrible writing you got going there. As for your question "Why would a space faring species have to be more intelligent than humanity?". Well I suppose it is possible that a less intelligent species adopted technology developed by another more intelligent race. But while we could possibly colonize our solar system if we focused our efforts on doing so, any voyage to an extrasolar star would be extremely impractical with our current understanding of physics. It may be that the physical understanding required for convenient intrastellar travel, demands a higher level of intelligence than that of humans.

[Anonymous No.3618573]

>>3618557

yes, yes. I see.

[Anonymous No.3618576]

>>3618257
OP here
While what you say is true, you forget that the reason most animals share four legs, two eyes, etc.. Is because there is a common ancestor with all of those traits already at it's disposal
Convergent evolution does show good body types, ambulocetus looked Alot like a crocodile for example as did many of the ancient amphibians
But they all already had two eyes, four legs, and a tail before they looked like such, the body type is exploited because it's very effective, but you need certain traits to fill the body out
A species on another planet most likely will not have so many of the same traits to fill out exactly what we have on earth
Sure we may see something SHAPED like a croc, but who's to say it will have a heart, lungs, eyes, nose, or anything of the sort

[Anonymous No.3618597]

>>3618457
Nothing you couldn't bio engineer resistance to.

[Anonymous No.3618603]

What if we're not even considered as "intelligent" life form? Aliens just brush us off as "animals"?

We should build a mother ASPS, get out of our own galaxy instead of pursuing wealth.
I dream big.

[Anonymous No.3618607]

>>3618603
>aliens just brush us off as animals
>implying I don't already brush most people off as animals
Earth confirmed for still primitive

[Anonymous No.3618614]

>>3618576

this seems valid

also, not only do we have a common ancestor but all terrestial life has evolved in similar conditions. yes, there are species that survive extremes, but the difference between earth and another planet could be much, much more significant.

this is completely unbased on anything, but who knows what they might have where we have DNA, and how it would work and differ. they wouldn't even have to be composed of cells.

[Anonymous No.3618617]

>mfw some alien species would probably look at us like pets
>mfw their pets are probably as advanced as us

[Anonymous No.3618621]

>>3618576
They would probably still have eyes and a nose and things like that though, they could work completely different but the purpose is the same.

[Anonymous No.3618624]

>>3618621
Have you considered that they may not need oxygen?

[Anonymous No.3618627]

>>3618624
They would need to see though, wouldn't they?
Of course they could use shit like echolocation or thermal pits but vision is just as likely.

A nose to detect prey and shit like that... I would be surprised if they didn't have one.

[Anonymous No.3618628]

>>3618627
Bats.

[Anonymous No.3618633]

>>3618628
Are you sure you read my completely?

[Anonymous No.3618636]

>>3618627
Have you considered that they may not need the 5 senses at all?

What if they're green floating jelly fish that feeds on stars?

[Anonymous No.3618638]

>>3618636
Yes, every living being that is not on this planet is giant jellyfish that feed on stars.

[Anonymous No.3618639]

>>3618638
U mad bro?

[Anonymous No.3618646]

> huy guise you don't know what another planet would be like it could be square and made of gold, then it wud have really different aliens u just don't know

> wat if the dinosuars were never killed we'd all be intellignet lizards!lol

[Anonymous No.3618656]

>>3618646
Fuck you nigger, the Voth are real.

[Anonymous No.3618658]

>>3618646

alright i lol'd

[Anonymous No.3618662]

>>3618646
>intellignet lizards

[Anonymous No.3618669]

Convergent evolution
/thread

[Anonymous No.3618670]

To the extent that the challenges faced by life on earth are not totally unique to earth, life on other planets will be like life on earth.

[Anonymous No.3618675]

>>3618670
Surely capitalism will be part of the alien's life struggle as they work, mate, consume and die.
Life is so wondrous even for an alien.

[Anonymous No.3618677]

>>3618646
>dinosaur
>lizards
Niggayoujustwentfullretard.jpeg

[Anonymous No.3618682]

>>3618669
That didn't answer anything bro
What in god's name are the chances of THAT much convergence?

[Anonymous No.3618691]

>>3618675
Um, right, good show, chap, pip pip and all that.

[Anonymous No.3618824]

>>3618682
Very likely. Because life can only emerge from a very narrow range of conditions, and even then any complex life beyond microorganisms you need even a narrower range of conditions. And beyond that, for intelligent homo sapiens level of life you have an even smaller range of conditions and evolutionary paths leading to specific traits. We're talking hard /sci/ here, baseless fanciful speculations with fantastic wishful thinking fantasy creatures can go to /x/.

[Anonymous No.3618893]

>>3618824
OUR life can only emerge from a narrow range of conditions
And even if it's the same kind of life
Even if it's the same conditions as our earth
Evolution isn't a one way path
If the surroundings call for no eyes, three mouths, 5 legs, and a spike then you either get animals like that or mass extinction (and I'm not saying there is an environment that would require that, just an example)
Evolution doesn't equal two eyes, four feet, etc..
Natural selection will take species every which-way if it means survival

What was that discovery documentary about the fictional planet called darwin(some numbers)?
Those were some of the best extraterrestrials I've seen in a show

[Anonymous No.3618907]

>>3618893
Evolutionary algorithms tend towards locally-optimum solutions. Why do you suppose these solutions would be wildly different on an earthlike-but-not-earth planet? Before we even tackle methane clouds and diamond mountains, just an earth-like planet would be fine.

[Anonymous No.3618912]

>am I missing something?

Yes you are; extraterrestrials do exist and have already made contact, the way they are portrayed is a way of easing them into human culture. Their appearance won't be such a shock if they appear to be everything we've heard of them.

[Anonymous No.3618937]

>>3618893
The fauna was still very similar to that of Earth on that planet. Limbs. Mouths. Eyes. The sentients were bouyant but still had hand-like appendages.

[Anonymous No.3618965]

>>3618937
I know, and with basics like limbs and what have you, it's not a big stretch to believe
But the animals were portrayed very well in terms of locomotion, diet, and means of devouring said diet (the one that sticks in my head the most is the one they compare in size to tyrannosaur at one point)
Also it's been years since I've seen it so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details
With all the greys and reptoids out there in popular culture it was refreshing to see them at least attempt to show what animals would look like on different planets

[Anonymous No.3618981]

>>3618912

i'm listening

[Anonymous No.3619000]

>>3618242
If they were a prey species they wouldn't evolve to be space capable. Look at earth- there are no intelligent non-predatorial animals.

[Anonymous No.3619057]

>>3619000
what about whales? i know they eat krill, but it's not like they need to engage in any active hunting behaviour to do so. they just swim around with their mouths open and krill gets caught in there.

[Anonymous No.3619062]

>>3619057
i meant plankton not krill

[Anonymous No.3619085]

>>3618282
>Eyes evolved multiple times in Earth history.

Nope, the same gene that produces eyes has been found in every eye bearing species on Earth, so the general scientific consensus is that eyes evolved only once.

[Anonymous No.3619086]

>>3619057
Predatory ancestry

[Anonymous No.3619146]

>>3619000
Elephants are fairly intelligent.

[Anonymous No.3619156]

>>3619085
Even compound eyes?

[Anonymous No.3619192]

>>3619057
Are whales smart? didn't think they were.
>>3619146
Elephants aren't prey animals. I agree though, so I'll shift the goalposts: There are no herbivorous prey animals that are intelligent other than a few offshoots from families like hominidae who have, since gaining intelligence, gone veggie.

[Anonymous No.3619197]

>>3619192
They arent prey animals? wat

[Anonymous No.3619206]

This thread? Started by aliens.

[Anonymous No.3619222]

>>3619197
The young are attacked, the adults aren't. The same is true in any big cat, but as they're never referred to as prey I wasn't either. I might be wrong, though.

[Anonymous No.3619232]

>>3619222
Makes sense, I just figured their ancestors were and they literally grew out of it and therefor technically still are.

[Anonymous No.3619259]

The reason we humans look the way we do is because it is optimal. An alien species capable of finding and/or traveling to us would most likely look similar to us. It is most optimal for a species as intelligent as us to look similar. Two eyes, two legs, ears, mouth, head, torso and so on. It is the most optimal way.

[Anonymous No.3619267]

>>3619206
This image and text based communication? Initiated by humans.

[Anonymous No.3619272]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110808220659.htm

based on this, they would definitely likely not be similar to us.

[Anonymous No.3619313]

fucking hell
>implying they have eyes
>implying they have ears
>implying they have language
>implying they move
>implying they breathe
>implying they have DNA
>implying they eat
>implying they even live on a planet and don't just drift around space
>implying implying implying

[Anonymous No.3619325]

>>3619272
> throws random article that doesn't support the comment at all

[Anonymous No.3619328]

>>3619272
No. It says nothing about that. DNA =! intelligent space faring life forms

[Anonymous No.3619412]

Those of you talking about Australia are forgetting all the common ancestors shared by most life on Earth. That's why they are so similar in so many fundamental ways.

[Anonymous No.3619524]

>>3619259
You probably think this is what non-avain dinosaurs would've looked like if they had survived the mass extinction
Lookathimlookathimandlaugh.jpg

[Anonymous No.3619662]

>>3619412
No no no. We are referring to convergent evolution and not merely traits common to vertebrates such as 4 limbs 2 eyes or mammalian traits such as having fur and milk. We're talking about a whole different class of mammals that evolved independently from the placentals, and has showed that nature has selected for very specific traits.

Look at this guy here, looks like a rodent but isn't. A rodent is fucking phylogenetically closer to humans and dolphins than this dude.