/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.3597497]

doing some research into the ideal society
does /sci/ have any opinions on Utopia?

[cy No.3597510]

Don't tolerate religion.

[Anonymous No.3597515]

I think there are far too many morons who think that having a good ideal in mind means they know how to make it happen.

See; Zeitgeist, and the Venus Project

Personally, I think a welfare capitalism (aka social democracy) looks good, like in the Scandinavian countries. Universal education and healthcare paid by progressive taxes, but a market economy to retain responsiveness and efficiency.

[Anonymous No.3597538]

I could upload my mini essay on my utopia I wrote a little while ago, if you want.

(before I knew about zeitgeist or venus project)

[Anonymous No.3597544]

Imagination is often better than what's possible, and almost always better than what's practical. Even if we were somehow able to implement a Utopia, we would either find new faults with our way of life or we would run out of societal obstacles and get bored.

[Anonymous No.3597555]

>>3597544
> or we would run out of societal obstacles and get bored.
I fully agree with the rest of your post, but I don't think this is a concern. A society in which people are bored is not a good society. It's a zoo for humans.

Besides, we seem to have an infinite appetite for entertaining each other, even if only a fraction of us want to expand through the stars. When true VR comes around, I don't see that ever getting boring.

[OP No.3597564]

>>3597538
go for it man :)
>>3597544
then boredom would become a societal obstacle

[Anonymous No.3597584]

>>3597564

Ok. 1/3

>>3597544

Yeah after writing this, I've since come to a similar conclusion. Essentially, that we define ourselves by our conflicts and that, in a way, current society is a utopia.

[Anonymous No.3597588]

2/3

[Anonymous No.3597592]

3/3

[Anonymous No.3597611]

>>3597584
You might like this story. They also paint a utopia that has universal surveillance, which is a major point of concern for a lot of people. The political structure has to be carefully considered to prevent this becoming a police state with a dictator.

http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

They only pull it off with the help of what is basically strong AI.

[Anonymous No.3597625]

>>3597592
>the only punishment for every crime is banishment or involuntary scientific research
That's fucking harsh.

Also, you don't seem to address the political structure at all. Dystopia here we come.

[Anonymous No.3597649]

>>3597611

Yeah, mine is fairly similar. That "layer of computers spanning the area of island" is essentially for those various purposes.

>>3597625

Yeah, it technically isn't complete, but there virtually is no political structure anyway. There are no laws except for physical abuse and murder... Money doesn't exist so you can't really steal things... Rape isn't really a problem given the freely available sex parlor... There's really no rhyme or reason to commit a crime.

[Anonymous No.3597660]

>>3597649
>there virtually is no political structure anyway.
>Money doesn't exist so you can't really steal thing
Whelp, you're doomed to becoming an authoritarian dictatorship. Some people just want power, and there is never enough.

>There's really no rhyme or reason to commit a crime.
Tell that to Comrade Stalin.

[Anonymous No.3597664]

humanists are savant retards

[Anonymous No.3597688]

>>3597649
>thinks rape is about wanting to have sex and not wanting to have control

[Anonymous No.3597689]

>>3597660

By who? I mean you can't just randomly declare you run a place... I don't understand why you would think that. Seems like a non sequitir to me.

Plus, I forgot to write this in, which is funny given how major an impact it has, but prior to the creation of the island nation, each and every citizen is screened to meet certain qualities. Anyone who wants power for the sake of power will not be included in the initial settlers admitted to the island.

[OP No.3597691]

>>3597584
not bad, but a bit oppressive for my taste. those bimonthly psychological checkups can be as stifling to some as they are helpful to others
>>3597611
tl;dr. ill pick it up later

anyway, huxley (in brave new world) seemed to think the only way people would ever achieve happiness is through forced conditioning in childhood and fierce control of the population. in other words, a human society has to choose between freedom and happiness. any thoughts?

[Anonymous No.3597693]

>>3597689
>By who? I mean you can't just randomly declare you run a place... I don't understand why you would think that. Seems like a non sequitir to me.
Power vacuums WILL be overtaken by those who want power. Just saying "there is no political structure" doesn't make it so.

[Anonymous No.3597697]

>>3597689
>Anyone who wants power for the sake of power will not be included in the initial settlers admitted to the island.
And who will watch the psych evaluators?

[Anonymous No.3597705]

>>3597691
>anyway, huxley (in brave new world) seemed to think the only way people would ever achieve happiness is through forced conditioning in childhood and fierce control of the population. in other words, a human society has to choose between freedom and happiness. any thoughts?
I think Huxley was painting a warning, not an inevitability. He commented on how he liked the idea of being forced to two choose between two insane options (the city and the savages), but that if he wrote the book again he might include a sane alternative. Like the island where all the intellectuals were exiled.

[Anonymous No.3597718]

>>3597689
each other?

[Anonymous No.3597719]

>>3597691
>not bad, but a bit oppressive for my taste.

Could you explain that further, because that seems to be a common perception and I honestly can't see why.

>>3597693
>Anyone who wants power for the sake of power will not be included in the initial settlers admitted to the island.

>>3597697

The assessment for acceptance to the island is a one time thing and that isn't conducted by the psych evaluators. Even the psych evaluators are assessed prior to the initial settlement.

[Anonymous No.3597723]

>>3597705
Here's what I was referring to, in his foreword to the 1946 edition, see the bolded parts especially:
http://www.wealthandwant.com/auth/Huxley.html

[Anonymous No.3597731]

>>3597718
Instant oligarchy. The psych evaluators will slowly edge towards despotism, and eventually be overtaken by a charistmatic sociopath who pretends to act in the favor of the society. Their entire function is to "weed out the undesirables". That will VERY quickly produce the tyrannical final result, in the second generation if not the first.

[Anonymous No.3597733]

A technological meritocracy, bordering on the fascist, or a technological anarchy.

[Anonymous No.3597735]

>>3597719
>The assessment for acceptance to the island is a one time thing and that isn't conducted by the psych evaluators. Even the psych evaluators are assessed prior to the initial settlement.
It's conducted by SOMEONE. The lack of concern here is a very serious problem.

[Anonymous No.3597738]

>>3597735

It's conducted by me. Problem?!!?!

[Anonymous No.3597739]

>>3597705
There is always going o be violence and suffering so long as freedom exists. Personally, I value freedom more than happiness.

[Anonymous No.3597745]

>>3597738
I thought so. YOU'RE the new Stalin.

It's ok, most teenagers re-envisioning society put themselves as the supreme leader. You'll probably grow out of it.

[Anonymous No.3597750]

>>3597739
I don't believe there is an inevitable tradeoff. Same with knowledge and happiness.

HOWEVER, I think there MIGHT be an inevitable tradeoff between maximizing the long-term survival of our species and maximizing our short-term personal happiness. It would be nice if we could change our nature a bit to make sure those two goals coincide.

[Anonymous No.3597764]

>>3597719
no system for allowing individuals to change their field of study, the video cameras will stifle the psychological need for periods of solitude and bimonthly psychological checkups allow psychologists not only to dictate but enforce what is deemed 'normal' by society
might also want to put in some necessary birth control system. without murder and disease, you get overpopulation, which is disastrous for well being, happiness and order

[Anonymous No.3597769]

>>3597750
Then we remake the universe to suit our eventual post-human goals. We change the fundamental nature of the universe, eternity or nothing. Screw happiness, humanities glory should stretch from here to eternity.

[Anonymous No.3597770]

>>3597745

lolol. Seriously you need to learn to take a joke. Tying desperately to find a single fault with my utopia isn't exactly a sign of maturity y'know. But I mean it's not that hard to have an objective bias assessment that isn't controlled by any ONE person. What if I answered I just paid some psychologists in America to conduct the assessment, but they themselves weren't permitted to the island. Then it doesn't really matter does it because they have no effect on the island from then on out. So... where's my next flaw, o' wise sage of 4chan?

[Anonymous No.3597771]

>>3597764
> without murder and disease, you get overpopulation
I generally agree with your post, but this is wrong. Russia and Japan aren't in population contraction because of "murder and disease".

[Anonymous No.3597782]

>>3597750
Then we remake the universe to suit our eventual post-human goals. We change the fundamental nature of the universe, eternity or nothing. Screw happiness, humanities glory should stretch from here to eternity.

[Colonel Coffee Mug !phJ7yIcs.Q No.3597776]

>>3597770

Getting that defensive can't be a good sign.

[Anonymous No.3597780]

>>3597770
Your entire lack of thought for the political structure, for one. The psych evaluators will become the new Party. And you don't even discuss how decisions are made besides psych evals. Who makes those decisions? Probably the psych eval guys again.

You should WANT me to criticize your plan, so that you can improve it.

[Anonymous No.3597787]

>>3597782
Great, good drive, and I approve of the reference in the pic, but I'm talking about making sure we aren't all killed by aliens or something.

It's about changing ourselves to maximize our chances of survival, not just restructuring reality. That latter goal presumes victory for perpetual human survival already.

[Anonymous No.3597795]

>>3597787

I'm talking about making sure we aren't all killed by aliens or something.

>It's about changing ourselves to maximize our chances of survival, not just restructuring reality.

I agree completely.

[Anonymous No.3597798]

Why do we need ideal society again?

[Anonymous No.3597800]

>>3597750
huxley thought we could
see brave new world in which people are conditioned from birth to be happy doing what society needs them to do, and Island in which society is conditioned to work toward individual happiness as a goal, and individuals instructed on how to achieve happiness within themselves and through each other. admittedly, in island, they get invaded by people outside the system. however, this would not happen if the principles were applied to the whole human race. anyway, the island wasnt industrialised, and in BNW society was controlled to the point that over consumption would be down to mismanagement

[Anonymous No.3597802]

>>3597795
Excellent. Let's hope that we get the human brain figured out enough for mind uploading during our lifetimes.

[Anonymous No.3597803]

>>3597764

Well the fields of study are chosen by themselves and I never said they couldn't change it..

Also, I've pretty much decided against the bimonthly psych evals a little bit ago. Opting instead just for freely available medical and Bi-yearly total check-ups (psych and physical)

>>3597776

Don't see how I was overly defensive...

>>3597780

That's you don't seem to understand. THERE IS NO POLITICAL STRUCTURE. Why are you so married to the idea of being controlled by someone. And the psychologists have no more power of control than anyone else I don't know where you got that idea.

[Anonymous No.3597804]

>>3597787

>I'm talking about making sure we aren't all killed by aliens or something.

>It's about changing ourselves to maximize our chances of survival, not just restructuring reality.

I agree completely.

[Anonymous No.3597811]

>>3597802

>mfw

[Anonymous No.3597820]

>>3597803
>That's you don't seem to understand. THERE IS NO POLITICAL STRUCTURE. Why are you so married to the idea of being controlled by someone. And the psychologists have no more power of control than anyone else I don't know where you got that idea.
This is just naive. As I said before, "there is no political structure" just means "society will be controlled by the first person to volunteer to do so".

You have no structure in place to prevent this. The initial psych evals will keep out some truly insane people, but sociopaths would get through once in a while. They can be very intelligent and charistmatic, and good at manipulating people. Passing psych evals is largely about knowing the right answers.

[Anonymous No.3597839]

>>3597820

You seem to have an entirely wrong idea of the nature of this place. No offense, as it is a ridiculous thought experiment anyway, but someone like yourself would not be admitted to this island.

The psych evals aren't some sort of tool to make sure no one's going crazy and then lock 'em up at the earliest convenience. There are for the mental health of the populace.

And why would a completely content populace just randomly listen to some guy? What could he offer them that they aren't already getting?

[Anonymous No.3597840]

>>3597803
There can't be NO political structure.

[Anonymous No.3597842]

>>3597840
Yes there can it's called anarchy.

[Anonymous No.3597846]

The Culture is pretty much one of the best societies there is. A lot of it is grounded in technological wizardry and post-scarcity though, so it's kinda cheating.

[OP No.3597865]

Utopia would be a lot more simple with a omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent dictator. this is why religion gets off so lightly in their ideas of the afterlife. in practical terms, this would be a genious level ruler with full jurisdictional powers and access to a whole host of surveillance equipment and psychological understanding. and an army. naturally no human could fulfil this role, and even if one were to be found who could, he would eventually die. so what about AI? are we ready to submit to our robot masters, /sci/?

[Anonymous No.3597872]

>mfw brave new world sounded kinda nice

[Anonymous No.3597880]

>>3597865

>naturally no human could fulfil this role, and even if one were to be found who could, he would eventually die.

[Anonymous No.3597881]

>>3597865
I'd rather hook up to some mind-uploading VR tech and launched myself into space. I mean, why not go all the way?

[Anonymous No.3597888]

> ideal
> society

Pick one. What is desired in a utopia will be achieved by making society itself obsolete.

[OP No.3597904]

>>3597880
8.5/10

[Anonymous No.3597898]

test

[Anonymous No.3597913]

let nature take its course

[Anonymous No.3597919]

>>3597865
>Dune
>Muad'dib

Solution found.

[Anonymous No.3597921]

>>3597904

What's the rating for? Are you implying I'm trolling?

[Anonymous No.3597924]

>>3597913
nature has taken its course, and life is shit, except for the chosen few. also globalwarmingoverconsumptionwe'reallgoingtodie etc

[Anonymous No.3597929]

>>3597921
im implying it was a magnificent post
i lol'd

[Anonymous No.3597930]

>>3597872
>>3597872
yeah but it'd suck if you're interested in shit like science or philosophy, there was no place for those kinds of people in that society. If it didn't bring immediate sensory pleasure it was discarded.

[Anonymous No.3597931]

If we were to enter a society like Brave New World, I wouldn't be too beat up about it. All in all, the heavy majority of people seem happy and satisfied with their lives all the while the society itself maintains a great level of order.

[Anonymous No.3597945]

>>3597929

Oh. Thanks!

[Anonymous No.3597950]

>>3597924
> life is shit, except for the chosen few.
Someone hasn't studied history. If life is shit TODAY, what was it 200 years ago?

[Anonymous No.3597946]

>>3597930
if you were that interested in science/philosophy/beauty etc, theyd single you out and put you among the intellectual elite on a remote island
or theyd make you lord of everything

[Anonymous No.3597955]

>>3597931
Of course you wouldn't, Epsilon.

[Anonymous No.3597956]

>>3597950

retroshit.

[Anonymous No.3597991]

a

[Anonymous No.3598004]

b

[Anonymous No.3598009]

Most conceptions of utopia in which human beings retain some say in politics require human nature to change.

The only way we can have utopia without a changed human nature is to design the environment around human beings, assuming the full range of typical behavior. Make the habitat itself such that it provides for all needs and protects us from ourselves.

tl;dr designing Utopia is much like designing a zoo enclosure for the human animal, to a high standard that would keep the occupants comfortable, entertained and fulfilled.

[Fast paced tempos !!TMq6FoEFyM2 No.3598529]

If you're still here OP...
Nice background to your Utopia. But, transportation only around the island? What if you need to get to the center? You walk? (That's what is implied in your text.)
Also, the rape thing... someone already said it, but rape is about, mostly, having the woman you can't. The one that doesn't want you. Also about domination and fear. No society is free of it, but you can criminalize it as much as possible... Create an island to where all the rapists are shipped. As far away as possible, making swimming to any other impossible. Drop food/water for them not to starve. Let them eventually die or kill each other.
Also, your society sounds a little too much technologically advanced... this might end up with things like the "indians" from Brave New World happening. What would be done out of them?