I don't think conservatives belong on /sci/, or on any type of scientific endeavour. Isn't conservativism unscientific anyway? Even self-professed pro-science conservatives commit logical fallacies when their conventions are threatened.

File: 42 KB, 312x400, liberal-versus-conservative.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:39:50 2011 No.3535154 [Reply] [Original]

I don't think conservatives belong on /sci/, or on any type of scientific endeavour.

Isn't conservativism unscientific anyway? Even self-professed pro-science conservatives commit logical fallacies when their conventions are threatened.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:44:50 2011 No.3535175 I don't think you should post on /sci/.

>>	Krakengineer !!5XY+x7grkpt Mon Aug 8 22:47:50 2011 No.3535196 Science should be free of every political ideology. Conservatism is probably the political ideology that basis its policies the least on scientific data though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:49:50 2011 No.3535202 >>3535196 Bases the least but promotes it the most through capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:51:50 2011 No.3535218 Liberals don't even have a political ideology. They just define themselves as being not conservatives.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:55:50 2011 No.3535237 >>3535202 Except when scientific discoveries go against capitalist agenda. Which happens a lot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:55:50 2011 No.3535238 >>3535154 conservative means you choose to maintain beliefs in time proven things, and not be a fag who trusts string theory completely. Scientists are actually conservative. If they weren't, they'd be all ufologists.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:59:50 2011 No.3535269

Politics and Science are separate and should remain separate. And if you believe the political spectrum is divided into "Liberal" and "Conservatives", go fuck yourself, because things are much much more complex than that.

>>3535237

>Capitalist agenda

There is no such thing as a "Capitalist" agenda. Capitalism is simply a system by which people work and trade in search of profit, certain entrepeneurs and consumers will have their own goals and may work together for their goals, but a unified Capitalist agenda or Proletarian agenda only exists in the heads of collectivists from the paranoid right and the marxist left.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 22:59:50 2011 No.3535270 >>3535237 Cite one example please.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:01:50 2011 No.3535281 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Q8UvJ1wvk

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:08:50 2011 No.3535314 >>3535281 this so much, OP is quite a fag

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:10:50 2011 No.3535326

both ideologies have their flaws and their stupids on both sides.

conservatism is a good thing; ie. conserving the environment, conserving our costs (so we don't end up owing the whole world our entire ass and then some), conserving our social morals so we don't end up with > 50% divorce which is highly destabilising, etc.

as for Conservatives with a capitol C, whatever; some are decent, some are retarded teabaggers

but you can say the same thing about libtards as well

you'll find the most sense in the center

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:11:50 2011 No.3535334 >>3535269 well said

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:12:50 2011 No.3535337 >>3535326 Isn't that a logical fallacy?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:13:50 2011 No.3535344 >>3535281 >Implying investing in junk science is being pro-science. Republicans have to invest in junk science, is their way to defend themselves from reality. No political party would invest in something that would go against their political agenda.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:14:50 2011 No.3535346 Republican scientist is an oxymoron, anyway.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:17:50 2011 No.3535355 >>3535326 >conserving our social morals so we don't end up with > 50% divorce which is highly destabilising, etc. Idiot detected. Also, what's that about conservatives conserving the enviroment?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:19:50 2011 No.3535367 >>3535337 where is the logical fallacy? if you're going to make an argument, make one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:20:50 2011 No.3535373 >>3535367 The golden mean fallacy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:21:50 2011 No.3535376 >>3535373 implying "balance" is a fallacy :p it's a tendency of physics

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:22:50 2011 No.3535381 >>3535355 oh, so you support family breakdown, and general social decline? i see; who's the idiot? and i distinguished between conservatism and Conservatism. reread

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:23:50 2011 No.3535391 >>3535238 How about that flat earth and the sun being on fire.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:26:50 2011 No.3535407 >>3535381 >Implying higher divorce rates follows family breakdown >Implying higher divorce rates follow social decline You're so much of an idiot, there isn't a point to even arguing with you. Next you'll be saying Jesus should be the head of family.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:26:50 2011 No.3535410 >>3535269 Capitalism does have an agenda, everyone should increase the amount of money they have by any means neccessary and anything which doesn't further this is a waste of time. Agenda does not mean conspiracy.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:27:50 2011 No.3535413

>>3535154
conservative and liberal make more sense in social sciences, where to be conservative means you hold onto well proven theories, rather than accepting untested ones.

Being liberal means you latch onto less proven theories, hoping to expand/prove/make better.

It's not nearly as evil as your 12 year old media infiltrated mind thinks it is.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:30:50 2011 No.3535424

>>3535376

He's referring to the idea that just because two ideas are opposite or are equally popular that they are equally meritorious, which is false. The simple fact that a lot of people believe in creationism/intelligent design does not give it additional factual weight. If I convinced a bunch a people that the dinosaurs didn't go extinct, but rather flew to the moon where they communicate with us through crater patterns and hide from astronauts it wouldn't make it true, either. The median of "That idea is ridiculous and none of it is true" and "Dinosaurs totally have a civilization on the dark side of the moon where they worship Pink Floyd and grow amazing weed" being something along the lines of "There are dinosaurs on the moon, but they probably don't grow weed, worship pink floyd or communicate with craters" still is wrong.

However, as it applies to this particular case, where both parties do have some good ideas and some extreme destructive tendencies, a more sensible set of policies does most likely lie somewhere in between, but it may well be skewed one way or another.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:36:50 2011 No.3535444 >>3535407 divorce is by definition family breakdown you fucking tard

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:36:50 2011 No.3535445

>>3535413
You're using a different definition of conservative and liberal. I could do the same thing and say conservatives hold on to outdated theories like spontaneous creation and social darwinism, while liberals are more open to newer theories.

It's not nearly as evil as your 12 year old fox news infiltrated mind thinks it is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:36:50 2011 No.3535448 >>3535391 Neither of those are believed by scientists. We're talking about shit like string theory. Or..feminism..or whatever. I'm not a social scientist or economist, so I can't give you a clear view of the current bleeding edge theories.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:36:50 2011 No.3535449

>>3535326
>conserving the environment
Requires a change of life style and infrastructure, which is not what conservatism is about.

>conserving our costs (so we don't end up owing the whole world our entire ass and then some)
We aren't in massive debts because the costs went up (the costs are caused by the debt/inflation), we're in massive debts because of profit mongers trading massive figures in imaginary markets.

>conserving our social morals so we don't end up with > 50% divorce which is highly destabilising
If you want to lower divorce rate remove marriage from law and have it be a purely social construct or else make it much more difficult to get married.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:38:50 2011 No.3535466 >>3535424 lot of people believe in affirmative action. Is this good or bad?

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:39:04 2011 No.3535475 [DELETED]

>>3535424

yah we're talking about actual balance, not balance between hypotheticals like dinosaurs on the moon

and yah, the fact that nearly every culture on earth has a sense of God suggests there's more to it than herp derp stupid religious people

there's more than one type of stupid/ignorant

scientists/liberals/atheists are equally capable

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:39:50 2011 No.3535474 >>3535448 This has nothing to do with social conservativism and social liberalism. Social conservativism is believing God made it up, not believing in Quantum gravity.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:40:50 2011 No.3535485 >>3535448 But they were time tested ideas, conservatism is the path to stagnation.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:40:50 2011 No.3535488

>>3535424

yah we're talking about actual balance, not balance between hypotheticals like dinosaurs on the moon

and yah, the fact that nearly every culture on earth has a sense of God suggests there's more to it than herp derp stupid religious people

there's more than one type of stupid/ignorant

liberals/atheists are equally capable

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:41:50 2011 No.3535493

pretty much agreed OP.
I should point out however, that there are plenty of Liberal Ideals that are flawed and unbased on reality, that liberals feel 100% certain are true.
Tl;dr, yes liberals are much better at science and reality, but it doesn't mean all liberal ideals hold up to reality

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:43:50 2011 No.3535503 >>3535475 >and yah, the fact that nearly every culture on earth has a sense of God suggests there's more to it than herp derp stupid religious people No it doesn't all it says is that herp derp stupid religious people are all over the world.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:43:50 2011 No.3535501

>>3535449

you're missing the point:

marriage and families don't depend on the technical definition; they depend on 2 parents in the home, with their own kids

you abolish marriage without addressing root cause you have same problems

debts = americans spending more $ than the value of goods/services they produce

you can blame corps or whatever but it's fat ass americans buying this shit

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:43:50 2011 No.3535502

>>3535444
Divorce is just a change in a social construct. The family can still be close, just not together by law. Marriage is just social engineering, and protecting marriage as an institution has nothing to do with preventing family breakdown, just in protecting the cultural/religious definition of the institution.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:46:50 2011 No.3535514 >>3535485 No, conservatism is the path away from shit like Phrenetics and eugenics. Shit, you ain't so bright are you?

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:46:50 2011 No.3535513

>>3535503
There is some cultural/evolutionary background to religion, that doesn't mean it's right.

Suggesting religion is just a manipulation tool that has existed in the whole world for the entirety of human existance is as incorrect as suggesting religion exist because it's correct.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:49:50 2011 No.3535521 >>3535503 that conceit is not supported by teh history of wisdom in time

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:49:50 2011 No.3535522 >>3535514 >Conservativism >The path away from eugenics You do know that conservatives supported eugenics for decades after it was disproved, don't you? Heck, some even do to this day, but they can't go out in public with it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:50:50 2011 No.3535526 >>3535513 Right. Religion is so bad, it's produced 6 billion consumers at the top of the evolutionary predator/prey pyramid. Man, check out all those awesome atheistic civilizations..yeah..they really knew how to evolve.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:51:50 2011 No.3535534

>>3535445
Herp derp just because you have a different (flawed) definition of a term doesn't mean that its the correct definition of a word
conservatism- a political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes
liberalism-a political orientation that favors social progress by reform and by changing laws rather than by revolution.
no dictionary definition of a word is laced with opinions

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:52:50 2011 No.3535536 >>3535526 Are you really saying religion is responsible for human evolution?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:54:50 2011 No.3535546 >>3535522 See, you're confusing conservative generality with politics. Good luck with talking to yourself if you're so narrow minded. >It''s almost like..you're conservative..

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:54:50 2011 No.3535547

>>3535534
Of what's BEST in society? I didn't see that in any dictionaries. You're the one with the flawed definition. Just look at how conservatives and liberals interpret science. The only way you're coming out of that observation with the idea that conservatives are doing better science is if you have a misguided understanding of science yourself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:56:50 2011 No.3535557 >>3535536 look at the current products on 4chan, I can't help but think what other beliefs: >>>/b/346349822 >>>/b/346349828 >>>/b/346349829 >>>/b/346349830 >>>/b/346349923 would be more benefitial to large scale and long term survival.

Anonymous Mon Aug 8 23:59:50 2011 No.3535571

>>3535501
Marriage and families are tradition, they have no additional merit to them. There is no concrete reason why a family needs 2 parents other than social norms and vaunted tradition. That is not to say that putting a kid through a divorce is not detrimental however since that exposes the kid to the ill-will between so many divorced parents.

>you abolish marriage without addressing root cause you have same problems
The root cause of divorce is marriage, by definition you can't divorce if you aren't married. However beyond word games forcing people to stay together because they got married at some point in the past is in itself a moral wrong and ignores the simple fact that people change. Attraction or love if you'd prefer is hardly a permanent feeling and a permanent bondage like marriage ignores this simple fact.

>you can blame corps or whatever but it's fat ass americans buying this shit

Now you're just ignoring reality. People couldn't have bought the things they did without the enabling forces of the financial industry. Further you ignore that the down turn cost many people their jobs, shifting them from a position of 'can afford' to 'oh fuck'.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:00:50 2011 No.3535585 >>3535557 Am I being trolled?

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:00:50 2011 No.3535586

>>3535557
>>3535536

not human evolution, but human cultural evolution over the past few millennia yes.

humans existed for 100k years or whatever without written language (ie. without bibles, bhagava gitas, taos, korans, etc.)

but i would bet they still had a sense of the divine.

and little sense of science

protip; one is more important than the other

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:03:50 2011 No.3535592

>>3535571

families are the fundamental basis of societies

when families break down, societies break down

whether it be due to jaded people, children split apart, dual expenses, whatever, it happens like that

it is no accident that the experimentation with radical liberalism has also coincided with a precipitous breakdown of society itself

15$ trillion debt anyone?

also, i'd be willing to bet your parents stayed together

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:05:50 2011 No.3535598

>>3535571

i'm not interested in the term itself, but marriage as a consecrated and socially protected thing keeps couples and families together; don't make it impossible to split apart (there are always cases worth doing so) but you have to make it harder than it is now, otherwise you get what we've got; fucked upness

as far as our debt goes, there is plenty of blame to go around

liberal acting corps acting irresponsibily and liberal minded people acting irresponsibly

everybody taking whatever they can (money, bullshit) etc. and not minding the balancing of the books

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:07:50 2011 No.3535612

>>3535598

and i don't just mean the balancing of the money books

corps can make all kinds of money but if they're sickening and impoverishing their consumer base, and polluting their environment and generating distrust then long term they are net deficit, no matter how much money they have

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:10:50 2011 No.3535624

>>3535592
>families are the fundamental basis of societies
I hate to tell you that families aren't democracies so we've already diverged from the basis at the very start.

>15$ trillion debt anyone?
You do recall that much of that is an unjust, hypocritical, never ending war against an idea. Also the other part of it you're thinking of is the result of a ham-handed compromise made with conservatives to try to convert the country's medical system to the one used by every modern nation in the world except us.

>also, i'd be willing to bet your parents stayed together
True, but their parents didn't so fuck you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:11:50 2011 No.3535626 >>3535624 >True, but their parents didn't so fuck you. Scratch that forgot for a second that my dad isn't my real dad I never give it a thought.

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:12:50 2011 No.3535629

>>3535624

mine didn't either but i'm ok

but a lot of people can't handle that kind of disruption

see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BFHYtZlAU

--
the medical system is bloated; lots of fat, overconsuming diabetics and whatnot; without some sense of balance and restraint, making the system public just creates more deficits, not less

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:12:50 2011 No.3535628 >>3535585 Do you believe religion would have existed if it provided no benefit to population density?

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:15:50 2011 No.3535639

>>3535586
no, both were important, because thts how you get from A to B.

It's like saying our thumbs arn't important.

I'll say my pet theory so everyone can get butt hurt. But as societies evolve and religion declines, the survelience police state will replace the psychological security provided by religion.

YOU may be special in that you don't need church to sway your opinion over your fellow man, but 95% of the world still needs that.

You eradicate the church, and you just empower the survelience state and omniscience of intelligence and invasion of privacy.

Good luck with that one. Human psychology has not caught up with the cultural revolution, not by a long shot.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:16:50 2011 No.3535645 >>3535629 Jokes on you there are plenty of parents (bad and good) who aren't divorced and who's kids still end up in gangs.

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:18:50 2011 No.3535654
File: 236 KB, 455x648, 1311379533207.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjhVaLbBglQ

Please watch this documentary /sci/. It will help explain why your radical anti-traditionalist beliefs are so destructive.

Traditionalism is not American Republicanism or 'conservatism,' nor is it 'anti-science,' it is a much broader and intelligent set of beliefs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:19:50 2011 No.3535665 >>3535639 this is entirely plausible; good analysis anon i hope it doesn't come to that, but if it does, it does season for everything and whatnot so, robots and ai, eh? fuckkkkk

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:19:50 2011 No.3535666 >>3535639 Oh, and how is that liberal 'blank slate' ideology working out for you guys? Anyone else notice how black people arn't the same as white?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:19:50 2011 No.3535671 >>3535645 i'm not talking about anomolies here there are always exceptions to the rule, homey but they don't disprove the rule

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:20:50 2011 No.3535673 >>3535654 just by parsing your out of context synonyms to this discussion, i can tell you are a troll. >have seen quite a few trolls in my day.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:25:50 2011 No.3535702 >>3535654 looks fucking good

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:26:50 2011 No.3535709

A small dose of scrutiny can only help refine the conclusions scientists come up with. But I agree with you in condemning the endless stream of pessimism emanating from conservative bodies. Scrutiny is like a drug, constructive in small quantities but destructive in large.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:28:50 2011 No.3535715 >>3535673 I'm not a troll. It makes me very sad that people have no principles or ideals, that people pursue a life of completely meaningless hedonism and materialism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:30:50 2011 No.3535724 >>3535715 /thread

Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:31:50 2011 No.3535730

>>3535715
Add some more useless out of context words to this conversation. Also, pretend you have nothing to add to the debate and try to sway it towards your own fundamentally flawed concept all the while ignoring that you're doing nothing but putting more makeup on a whore.

>shoulda implied that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:37:50 2011 No.3535767 File: 151 KB, 500x376, 1279949949723.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3535715 >people don't support tradition >claim they have no ideals or principles

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:40:50 2011 No.3535775 File: 50 KB, 600x431, 1285355034577.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3535671 >anomalies This is what we refer to as wishful thinking.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:49:50 2011 No.3535819 >>3535775 whatever, see this: http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/formans/DefiningDeviancy.htm written by Daniel Patrick Moynihan He was a Democrat, fyi, and a good one at that I dare you to read it :)

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 00:51:50 2011 No.3535826 File: 25 KB, 350x400, 4045.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Can anyone really claim to have a "scientific" point of view? I would think anyone who claims either sides of the isle must be tied dogmatically to the party line.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 9 01:15:50 2011 No.3535930 >>3535819 bump read this roodipoos ....err niggers

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/sci/ - Science & Math