/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.3494197]

LOL leftists actually believe this is what all rich people do.

They actually believe the free market is a zero sum game. They actually believe when you make money you are taking it from someone else(when in reality it is the opposite)

Socialism is a religion and is against science and rationality in every way.

[Anonymous No.3494200]

>Socialism is a religion and is against science and rationality in every way.

2/10, for leaving the ovbious troll statement at the end

[Anonymous No.3494202]

Rothbard agrees OP.

[Anonymous No.3494203]

1/10

[Anonymous No.3494207]

>>3494200
>believing someone understanding economics is a troll

Most socialists believe value is "objective", as if some god controls everything and rains down prosperity.

How could you think it's NOT a religion?

[Anonymous No.3494213]

[Anonymous No.3494216]

>>3494207
>most socialists
>most

Any evidence of this?

[Anonymous No.3494217]

>>3494207
cool strawman bro

[Anonymous No.3494219]

[Anonymous No.3494222]

[Anonymous No.3494231]

Public schools in the United States are liberal and atheistic government institutions that employ 3 million people and spend $411.5 billion annually at a cost of $10,770 per student. Spoken prayer, the Ten Commandments, and sharing of faith are expressly forbidden in public schools' classrooms during school hours, and teaching of morality is implicitly disfavored. Homosexual indoctrination is common as early as elementary school in more liberal states. The failures of underperforming public schools are paradigm of socialism, along with landfills and the Canadian healthcare system.

[Anonymous No.3494234]

>>3494213
>posting MARXIST comics on a SCIENCE board

0/10

[Anonymous No.3494237]

>>3494222
>leftycartoons.com

LOL whatever argument you just had has now been destroyed by posting this.

Have you SEEN their other comics?

[Anonymous No.3494238]

>>3494231
>nonsense

[Anonymous No.3494241]

>>3494197
did you read the old Uncle Scrooge comic books?

[Anonymous No.3494243]

>>3494231
Public education is the EXACT reason why our students are so fucking retarded and religious.

There's no competition or evolution, it's just a stale never changing system with horrible teachers and dumb students.

Socialism is a religion.

Socialism is for christians.

[Anonymous No.3494244]

>>3494231
terribletrolling.jpg

[Anonymous No.3494248]

>>3494219
What is this supposed to prove at all?

The USA is the furthest thing from a free market.

[Anonymous No.3494250]

I've been on /sci/ for about two hours tonight.
Apparently /sci/ = /psci/ here. And I wanted to have meaningful discussions... better off on /b/.

[Anonymous No.3494251]

>>3494234
>thinking /sci/ is a science board

[Anonymous No.3494253]

>2011
>worshiping socialism and relgion

[Anonymous No.3494255]

mfw this entire thread

[Anonymous No.3494260]

>>3494243

>>america
>>full of free market ideology in its governments
>>shit tier eductation system

>>western europe
>>social democrats
>>damn good education systems

I'm sorry, france and germany are not a randian paradise. You want mexico or honduras for that.

[Anonymous No.3494261]

>>3494255
u mad?

[Anonymous No.3494269]

>>3494260
>>3494260
>america
>free market

BAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH

Oh come on, you can't pull that strawman you idiot.

Yurop schools are slightly better because they have a VOUCHER system and competition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3717744.stm

[Anonymous No.3494273]

>people actually believing one man or a group of people with all the power can make decisions for everyone else and direct resources efficiantly

[Anonymous No.3494277]

>>3494261
Not even slightly

[Anonymous No.3494282]

>>3494269

Wow. You really believe that *america* is less capitalist than western europe.

america, the place where they're afraid of universal healthcare.

america, the land of crippling student loans.

america, the source of the deregulated banking shitstorm.

america, which is far less equal (which you should be celebrating as a rightwinger) than europe (see picture)

You sir, are stupid beyond words.

[Anonymous No.3494285]

America Runs under the principle of The free market. That's a Biblical principle, that's a historical principle. We have all these quotes from Ben Franklin and Jefferson and Washington and others on free market and how important that is to maintain. That is part of the reason we have prosperity. This is what the Pilgrims brought in, the Puritans brought in, this is free market mentality.

And It's what makes America great

[Anonymous No.3494286]

>>3494277
Your anger is showing

Also btw Equestria was a voluntarist society with no taxes.

[Anonymous No.3494288]

>>3494285

Jesus was a hippie.

[Anonymous No.3494292]

>>3494286

Equestria is a monarchy ruled with an Iron Hoof by A Tyrant/troll.

LONG LIVE THE LUNA REPUBLIC.

[Anonymous No.3494293]

>>3494285
>America Runs under the principle of The free market.
I fucking raged hard.

America hasn't been a free market in decades.

[Anonymous No.3494295]

>>3494286

Have you seen any poverty in equestria? Thought not.

Celestia rules an (actually egalitarian) socialist dictatorship

[Anonymous No.3494299]

>>3494292
It's funded by voluntary taxation.

u mad?

[Anonymous No.3494300]

>>3494293

Since 1929, when the free market caused the great depression?

[Anonymous No.3494301]

>>3494295

[Anonymous No.3494304]

>>3494300

i think you mean the federal reserve cased the great depression

[Anonymous No.3494306]

>>3494295
>> Dragons
>> Zebras

That is all

[Anonymous No.3494309]

>>3494295
BAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHH

No.

It's funny because it's the exact opposite.

Does applejack's and rarity's businesses get taxed whatsoever?

It's a capitalist commune governed by a monarch.

[Anonymous No.3494314]

>>3494269

>claim pure capitalism delivers good education standards

>for evidence, a regulated voucher system that has only 6% of sweden's students.

>disregard sweden's state schools, plus the rest of western europe/scandinavia.

Yeeeah. You're just deluding yourself at this point.

[Anonymous No.3494315]

[Anonymous No.3494317]

>Argument on the socioeconomic and political conditions of ponyville

i love this thread

[Anonymous No.3494322]

[Anonymous No.3494323]

>>3494304

austrian economicsfag detected. Kindly masturbate to your fantasy world in peace.

A stock market crash fucked the world economy, and keynesian stimulus brought it out, first by the government, then by the military.

[Anonymous No.3494326]

>>3494323

Broken window fallacy.

Try again

[Anonymous No.3494327]

>>3494314
>6%
>this is what leftists actually believe

Also, why in the FUCK do you think schools controled by the people who have ALL of the power is a good thing?

America's schools are a complete failure because it's public and there's no competition.

Teachers are overpaid lazy and evil bastards holding our children hostage.

[Anonymous No.3494329]

MY WINGS ARE SO PRETTY

[Anonymous No.3494333]

>>3494323


Hows your stagflation doing keynesian faggot?

[Anonymous No.3494338]

>>3494327
>>America's schools are a complete failure because it's public and there's no competition.
>>thinks pivatizing schools are a good idea

[Anonymous No.3494339]

>>3494327
In France there are no private universities, they are all governemnt owned.

And the Polytechniques are renown around the whole world(Maybe not America, idk)

Your move.

[Anonymous No.3494343]

>>3494323
AHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH

KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS CREATED THE FUCKING BUBBLE YOU RETARDED CHILD

Who fucking LOWERED interest rates after the dotcom crash?

Why do liberals hate basic facts?

[Anonymous No.3494346]

>>3494327

from the article YOU cited:

"Before vouchers there were virtually no private schools in Sweden. Now there are almost 800. They educate around 6% of all pupils."

Yeah. I actually read the article. You're more full of shit than the IMF's PR division.

[Anonymous No.3494350]

>They actually believe the free market is a zero sum game.
'They' do not. Some do, but most don't.
Fact is that the utility of money decreases as the absolute amount increases. (The difference between having 1 mil and nothing is bigger then the difference between having 2 mil or just 1 mil.)
As a consequence, it is rational to believe that income should be redistributed to a certain extend.
Redistributing too much harms the economy (reduces efficiency), redistributing too little is reducing the total utility of the combined capital.
In other words, both sides are retards, but both sides are strawmen, since nobody holds such strong views.

[Anonymous No.3494359]

>>3494343

I'm sorry, you seem to have cause and effect mixed up. Keynesian economics wasn't applied until the depression set in and people needed to try something new. So it must have *retroactively* caused the crash.

Everyone thought at that time, like you do now, that markets are self-regulating, like an economic hippie's gaia. They were wrong, you are wrong. Get over it.

[Anonymous No.3494366]

>>3494338
UHhhhh, that would create competition and lower the price wouldn't it then retard?
Fuck off you don't deserve any of applejack's wealth.


> Polytechniques are renown around the whole world
LOL Wow, and I'm sure they are. XD
Enjoy your stupid children brainwashed by state run education.
Enjoy your massive poverty, debt and rioting in the streets. Enjoy your schools that do not respond to economic demand for certain skills.
Enjoy your "woman's studies".


Enjoy never having a Harvard or Yale.

[Anonymous No.3494368]

>>3494359

They actually do regulate themselves very well. The problem was the huge sum of government subsided sub-prime loans at artificially low interest rates that created the bubble. The market acted in a very predicable fashion to bust the bad loans.

[Anonymous No.3494372]

>>3494366
>>that would create competition and lower the price wouldn't it then retard?

Keep telling yourself thats how it works.

[Anonymous No.3494377]

>>3494359
LOL KOOL "FREE MARKET THAT FAILED" BRO

Can't you retards ever deal with how incredibly wrong you were?
You know about everything, including the great depression?

[Anonymous No.3494384]

>>3494372
That's how it has worked EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME IN HISTORY

Are you even using a computer right now?

How much did you fucking pay for it?

[Anonymous No.3494390]

>>3494346
>>3494346
>"Before vouchers there were virtually no private schools in Sweden. Now there are almost 800.

YES and it has been a success.

Why does this make you so mad?

[Anonymous No.3494392]

>>3494384
About 1100 'Cause i Built it myself.

And no - go take a look at Private schools you fucking Retard.

[Anonymous No.3494395]

>>3494368

I was talking about the great depression. Presumably you are talking about the 2007-current recession. Very well.

You forget that in addition to the government driving up the housing market, there was an onslaught of credit card debt that reflects the same thing. Too much cash trying to be loaned out to people who have been gradually impoverished since the 60s.

It was deregulation that removed the need to have cash reserves at all. Perhaps if someone had taken into account the amount of money locked into derivatives, they would have noticed the potential for a fail.

Furthermore, though the government signed the moral hazard stuff into law, they were pressured to do so by market forces in the form of banking lobbyists. Since this is Bush we're talking about, he gave them everything they wanted.

Had you a government with more integrity and will to stand up to the banking sector, you may have avoided it all together.

[Anonymous No.3494401]

lol keynesians

[Anonymous No.3494403]

>>3494390

Calm down. I am merely addressing your claim that europe is more capitalist than america. I won't be sidetracked.

This clearly demonstrates that a far greater proportion of schools are public in sweden than in america, and this was the example YOU gave. If this is the best you can find, you look pretty fucking unsupported there.

[Anonymous No.3494405]

>>3494395

The entire bubble wouldn't have done anything if all those bad( government subsidized loans) didn't exist in the first place. The problem is that people panicked and panicked hard. No bank(even following the regulations) could hold the cash that Wamu customers wanted.

[Anonymous No.3494410]

>>3494395
>Had you a government with more integrity and will to stand up to the banking sector, you may have avoided it all together.

WRONG, if you have NOT removed the free market regulations think would NOT have happened.

Question: Who gave the banks the money to do these things?

[Anonymous No.3494411]

Capitalism is the ultimate subjective morality: "Good means good for me."

[Anonymous No.3494412]

>>3494377

Not like its stopped your government from going keynesian when they cant lower interest rates anymore.

Of course they'll try interest rates first, because fuck employment.

[Anonymous No.3494416]

>>3494392
>>3494392
>About 1100 'Cause i Built it myself.
and the price of the parts has been rapidly declining and the price improving you fucking tard.

>And no - go take a look at Private schools you fucking Retard.
LOL are you serious? They're ten times better than your state run indoctrination centers. Why the fuck do you think people pay money for their kids to go there?

[Anonymous No.3494419]

>>3494410

their investors and customers.

Come now. You're confusing intervention by a government concerned with policy, and intervention by the banks with the government as a proxy.

It was in their clear interest, they had lobbyists to spare, they had bush in the white house, and cheney was letting his oil friends in the back door. Why not goldman sachs etc?

The government's just providing a service to the highest bidder; the banks, over the losing bidder, the voters.

And you can't even stop them, because otherwise there'd be a flight of capital.

[Anonymous No.3494425]

>>3494412
Yes, and this is the way it should be.

Go fucking die you religious tool.

Value IS subjective.

[Anonymous No.3494430]

>>3494416

My old high school was state run. People were clamouring to get in, it was highly acclaimed.

I always thought the private schools are hypocritical. They go on about the superiority of private enterprise, then take government money, while still charging high fees. Wasteful fucks.

[Anonymous No.3494439]

>>3494419
Why do you want to give banks massive amounts of money through the fed and bailouts?
Why do you like creating housing bubbles by forcing banks to lend to people that couldn't normally afford them.

[Anonymous No.3494444]

>>3494425

You seem to be rambling. Are you upset?

Is it religious to prefer high employment to high unemployment?

Oh thats right. A high unemployment must be better for the economy because it drives down labour costs, isn't that right?

yeah, fuck aggregate demand. If they cant pay for the shit they make, we'll sell it to a place where consumers have money, or get our people to go into shitloads of credit card debt (which we then get more money off of).

Yep. Sure is sound rational economic strategy in here.

[Anonymous No.3494445]

>>3494430
>>3494430
>My old high school was state run.
Yes, most are.
>People were clamouring to get in, it was highly acclaimed.
LOL because it's free. It might be better than most public schools but it's still not the same as a private school where people work for profit.

> They go on about the superiority of private enterprise, then take government money,
Then they're not really private then are they.
>while still charging high fees.
Why do you think they can charge high fees in the first place you fool?

[Anonymous No.3494452]

>>3494439

I want neither of those things. There's a way to house people through public funding, its called public housing. What you describe is a bunch of profiteers playing off a rightwing politician's ideology to make a buck through sweet sweet subsidies.

crony capitalism, man. Sucks balls.

[Anonymous No.3494456]

>>3494444
>Is it religious to prefer high employment to high unemployment?
I could ask leftists the same thing. Obama's corporate fascist keynesian economy has been a massive failure.

>A high unemployment must be better for the economy because it drives down labour costs, isn't that right?
What are you even talking about? Who ever said this? Keynesianism is a failure.
You can't magically It will devalue the currency and create bubbles and everyone will be worse off in the end. It isn't real economic growth.
LOL oh wait, I just realized. I meant to reply this post poster originally:
>>3494411

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3494463]

Here's the short version of this debate. Anyone who disagrees is a troll or an idiot or evil.

Free markets are an indispensable tool to the ends of a materially wealthy and prosperous people. Centrally planned economies fail. Free markets are a means to an ends, not an ends unto themselves. Whenever free markets produce drastically different results than our desired results of a materially wealthy populace, that's when we need to step in with government intervention.

Examples of such times include:
- Tragedy of the commons, freerider problem, and externalities.
- Differing time horizons.
- Acquiring free information is not free.
- People are not fully rational agents, merely boundedly rational. This usually doesn't matter, but sometimes it does, like during freak times when people panic.
- Cost barriers to entry are usually not insignificant.
- Extreme wealth disparities allow disproportion influence on the government by certain rich individuals.

Related: The Locke / Adam Smith justification of private property with the labor theory of value is bunk. It rests upon the premise that if I collect a bunch of apples and let them go to waste, it does you no harm because you are free to go collect some other apples from nature. In the real world, apples are fixed, and if I let some apples go to waste, this does demonstrably harm you. Locke weasels out of this by saying you can go to America and get all the free land you want. This loophole no longer exists.

[Anonymous No.3494481]

>>3494445
>My old high school was state run.
Yes, most are.
>People were clamouring to get in, it was highly acclaimed.
LOL because it's free. It might be better than most public schools but it's still not the same as a private school where people work for profit.

By 'highly acclaimed' I mean academically. The teachers were motivated and engaging, and the school has a good record with uni entrance exams.

They still charge people money, but its tiny compared to what private schools charge. And now that I'm in uni, my tuition fees are deferred until I'm actually earning money. The capitalist system of student loan debt slavery is morally repulsive to us.

> They go on about the superiority of private enterprise, then take government money,
Then they're not really private then are they.

Yes. They are. They're ugly, corrupt, private enterprises owned and operated by private individuals. As opposed to public schools which are owned and operated by the state.

>while still charging high fees.
Why do you think they can charge high fees in the first place you fool?

Um, because they're a for profit business that doesn't give a shit about access to education.

[Anonymous No.3494492]

>>3494456

Well I'm sorry if you can't accept that it solved the great depression. Two decades of steady growth is not a 'bubble'.

Good day.

[Anonymous No.3494497]

>>3494481
>They're ugly, corrupt, private enterprises

LOL This is what retards actually believe.

It's just like 1984, freedom is slavery.

FACT:State run schools are indoctrination centers that don't care about you or your money. Private schools are ten times better and produce more intelligent and productive children. You can't be as retarded to ignore these facts.

>Um, because they're a for profit business that doesn't give a shit about access to education.

NO, because they're corporate fascists that take money and student loans from the state.

Even if they didn't do this, private education is STILL cheaper than public education per student.

[resident /sci/ economist !!0CqB7P/574e No.3494499]

Hey guis whats goi-

Oh

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.3494506]

>>3494497
Richer people are generally more educated, more inclined to expose their children to more educational material at a young age, and send them to school with a large portion o the kids having similar circumstances. Curriculum is about the same, well, at least in Australia.

Correlation =/= causation

[Anonymous No.3494533]

>>3494497

I understand the need to safeguard your faith in capitalism.

But really. Can't you just use a more plausible line like "private education is worth more" instead of something so laughable I can only assume you are a troll?

See, when you want to make a profit from something, you charge the customer more, than if you do NOT want to make a profit from something.

This is more for the demonstration purpose than the hopes you will actually follow the argument.

[resident /sci/ economist !!0CqB7P/574e No.3494542]

I think we should get rid of public education. Maybe replace it by some kind of subsidized/single payer education system.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3494547]

>>3494542
Is that sarcasm I'm detecting?

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.3494549]

>>3494542
We already pay for education. We don't need the payment system dicked up.

[resident /sci/ economist !!0CqB7P/574e No.3494561]

>See, when you want to make a profit from something, you charge the customer more, than if you do NOT want to make a profit from something.


I dont think thats really it works. Businesses cant just get a profit when they feel like it.

>>3494547
>>3494549

No Im serious... sort of. I really hated high school, and my middle school was a joke. Im sure Im not the only one who felt like I didnt learn anything. I dont think it should be something mandated that all younglings go to. And I dont think the government should set the educational standards. So that leads me to think "Well, we shouldnt have public school"

But then I remind myself that when everyone can get an education, fairly easy, the whole society is a better place. So thats why I said subsidized/single payer. There could be a free market for schools, with their own standards, which have their own prices that the government co-pays for you. Thats different from what we have today, which is the government owns, manages and runs the schools, and even forces their customers to come to it.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3494566]

>>3494561
Meh. I think I am for forced education of all children in the US. Voting depends on an informed populace. I want to ensure that they stay educated. Perhaps some of your schooling was a joke, but imagine how bad it might have been without schooling at all?

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.3494568]

>>3494561
>non-compulsory education
I hate school with a burning passion but I think this is fully retarded. From your concerns I reckon education just needs a whole revamping.

Sugata Mitra's new experiments in self-teaching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk60sYrU2RU

Sir Ken Robinson: Do schools kill creativity?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

Conrad Wolfram: Teaching kids real math with computers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OVlfAUPJg

[resident /sci/ economist !!0CqB7P/574e No.3494579]

>>3494566

>Voting depends on an informed populace.

There are all kinds of problems with voting. I dont believe any amount of public education can solve these problems. To prove a point, pretty much everyone in America went to high school, and... well... we still have ridiculous political struggles.

>Perhaps some of your schooling was a joke, but imagine how bad it might have been without schooling at all?

This is a bit of a broken window fallacy, sure, I wouldnt have gotten the good chunks from school, if I didnt go to school, but I would also have approximately 12,800 hours of time on my hands. Who knows what kind of progress I could have made.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3494593]

>>3494579
I know what progress you likely would have made without school. It likely would have been worse.

[resident /sci/ economist !!0CqB7P/574e No.3494596]

>>3494593

I would disagree.

[THE FREE MARKET WILL !FIXITuBSJc No.3494598]

>>3494463
Tragedy of the commons, externalities etc are problems of public property.

Differing time preferences is the reason we have wages, loans, interest etc. If everybody had the same time preferences then there would be nobody to advance money.

Freak times like bank runs? Your solution is to have the state act as a lender of last resort, which has the consequences of banks having no incentive to practice sound policy.

[Anonymous No.3494604]

>>3494598
Finally dude, I was waiting for you to show up.

:)

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3494609]

>>3494598
I'll just reply to the most easily refuted, to save ourselves time, as you're a brainwashed idiot. If I can break your perfect idea just a little, that might be enough for you to see reason. At least, I hope.

>Tragedy of the commons, externalities etc are problems of public property.
Vaccines. Vaccines are my ur-example of externalities which involve absolutely no public property which hasn't been "properly privatized".

[Anonymous No.3494614]

>>3494568
>>3494568
> From your concerns I reckon education just needs a whole revamping.

Wow, you mean like changing something? I thought marxists hated a dynamic changing society?

The only thing that can fix education is a private system where the best forms of education rise to the top.

Public education is a cancer.

[THE FREE MARKET WILL !FIXITuBSJc No.3494624]

>>3494609
I agree with you about vaccines. Don't be so quick to write me off. Care respond to my other points? You are intelligent person and I would love to discuss this with you.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3494629]

>>3494624
Well, that was easy.

>I agree with you about vaccines. Don't be so quick to write me off. Care respond to my other points? You are intelligent person and I would love to discuss this with you.

Nope, because I have to be going to bed, and you're a dogmatic troll, so not much will be accomplished.

If you want to be taken seriously, don't be a dick and use flagrant falsehoods as the conversation starter, especially when you imply to be somewhat knowledgeable about the topic of hand with the name "THE FREE MARKET WILL".

Night /sci/.

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.3494633]

>>3494614
Gee, I guess you rumbled me. I really do want to see you in some kind of labor camp. Honestly.

[Anonymous No.3494664]

>>3494629
>>3494629
>and you're a dogmatic troll, so not much will be accomplished.

He's not a troll. dude.

[Anonymous No.3494705]

>>3494412
The Phillips curve is massive bullshit and has been proven some government policymaker's wanking time and time again.
Lowered interest rates have little a priori determinable effect on employment because they cause a lengthening of the structure of production illustrated by the Hayekian triangle. If I were you, I'd fear the fucking backlash from the unsound investments instead.

[Anonymous No.3495451]

Do you really think the Soviet Union would have industrialised had the government not forced hundreds of millions of peasants to get off their land and work in factories?

[Anonymous No.3495465]

Do you really think that people would pay to maintain a standing military if they weren't forced to pay it out of tax?

[Anonymous No.3495511]

>>3494633

Canada would make a really awkward hat, being significantly larger than the US itself.

[Anonymous No.3495567]

>>3495511

Canada: $1.574 trillion
U.S: $14.780 trillion

[Anonymous No.3495585]

>>3495567

Canada: 9,984,670 km^2
United States: 9,826,675 km^2

Plus a lot of the USA would be on top of its hat. Doesn't make much sense dawg.

[Anonymous No.3495606]

>>3495567
Canada Population: 30,000,000
USA Population: 300,000,000

herpy derpy hurrr I don't know about per capita