Philosoraptor time!

[Anonymous No.3216186]

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[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216204]

<<< i made this one ;)

[Anonymous No.3216205]

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216208]

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216220]

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216225]

[Anonymous No.3216226]

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216255]

[Anonymous No.3216278]

>>3216205
>You can't prove God exists

"But evidence would negate Faith!"

>But you also can't prove he doesn't exist

False. It is quite simple to prove non-existence. All you have to do is show that a given definition is impossible. Omniscience and Omnipotence, for example, are illogical concepts. It is impossible for any entity to possess either one without creating all sorts of irresolvable paradoxes. Combining them with other attributes such as agency results in a hilarious death spiral of logical consequences. Debunking scripture is also child's play.

[Anonymous No.3216298]

[Anonymous No.3216300]

[Anonymous No.3216304]

>>3216278
Unless you suppose God isn't completely omnipotent.

[Anonymous No.3216305]

[amarandiv No.3216314]

>>3216278
In a childs mind everything is child's play.

[Anonymous No.3216315]

[Anonymous No.3216319]

>>3216315
Lrn2logicalfallacies

[Anonymous No.3216321]

>>3216220
EK let's have children together

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216326]

>>3216321
lol.
i never want children.

[Anonymous No.3216329]

[Anonymous No.3216332]

>>3216319
The fuck?

[Anonymous No.3216333]

>>3216304
You could assume many things. But then you're just making shit up and expecting us to worship your imaginary friend.

Oh. I see. Just like any other religion. Right.

[Anonymous No.3216334]

>>3216304
Then why call him god?

[Anonymous No.3216337]

>>3216326
me too
i was just saying it so that you can see i'm serious about us

[Anonymous No.3216341]

>>3216326
Selfish bitch


EK thread gogogogogogo

[Anonymous No.3216345]

[Anonymous No.3216346]

>>3216278
the more interesting question is, if god cant be proven or disproven, does that make ones choice to believe or not believe in god of equal worth?

[Anonymous No.3216352]

>>3216346
The point is believe if you want. But don't expect people to take you seriously if and when you start basing your decisions on something that may or may not be true.

Secularism ftw.

[Anonymous No.3216356]

>>3216346

No. Don't believe it until it's shown.

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216357]

>>3216341
its not selfish, in fact if anything its selfless.
The world population is huge, and is still growing. overpopulation is already a problem, and will become a bigger problem in the next few decades. i have no desire to add to the effect. (also, to be honest, giving birth scares the shit out of me, if thas considered selfish, then fine, whatever.)

[Anonymous No.3216360]

>>3216304
>Unless you suppose God isn't completely omnipotent.

Then why call him "God"?

If he were not omnipotent, that would imply his power, while greater than ours, is not unattainable for mankind in the future. If he is bound by the same laws as us, then surely he is not so great?

[Anonymous No.3216367]

>>3216346
of course not
this changes the game completely
if this experiment to check the god's existence can be recreated then it should be included in the theories about the universe

the same way that we include new particles in our current model

[Anonymous No.3216374]

>>3216357
Of course it's not selfish. Not having kids isn't a crime. If it was who would it be a crime against? the non existent? law doesn't work that way.

you never fail to bite. are you deprived of attention in all other aspects of your life?

[Anonymous No.3216380]

>>3216356
>>3216352
same is true for the other way around, believing in the non existence is still believing and therefore unscientific

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216381]

>>3216374
who said anything about crime?

[Anonymous No.3216388]

>>3216374
don't talk like that to my future wife!

[Anonymous No.3216389]

>>3216357
Birth rates are declining.

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldgrgraph.php

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216393]

>>3216389
but people live to older ages as well.

[Anonymous No.3216398]

>>3216374
He never implied it was a crime.

[Anonymous No.3216406]

>>3216380
It's not the same no matter how much you want it to be, you ignorant agnosticfag

[Anonymous No.3216407]

>>3216360
We can still suppose God is omniscient, which isn't a power humans could attain.

[Anonymous No.3216418]

>>3216398
Someone can't connect the dots. :(

[Anonymous No.3216419]

>>3216393
Is it better to die young and still able-bodied, or to live a long life and die enfeebled?

[Anonymous No.3216422]

>>3216407

[Anonymous No.3216423]

>>3216380
No. Science and logic don't work like that.

A scientific viewpoint would be one where God doesn't enter the picture at all because there is no evidence to suggest such an entity has any observable impact on the Universe. Whether he exists or not is not a scientific problem because there's no evidence to work with.

Also, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, etc.

[Anonymous No.3216427]

>>3216407
Cool . God knows all but can't do shit.

Where does this leave us?
Exactly the same place as before.

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216432]

>>3216419
i'd prefer the former. but thats just me.

[Anonymous No.3216434]

>>3216427
The evidence does not point to an omnipotent god. That aside, we would not have free will if such a god exists.

[Anonymous No.3216437]

>>3216393
>>3216389

And we are having less still births...

[EK !EKFQOBUFnQ No.3216440]

>>3216437
population is still rising. maybe at a lower rate than it has been recently, but it is rising nonetheless
(more people are born each day than die each day)

[Anonymous No.3216444]

>>3216432
Paradox. Smoke, drink, and eat bad foods. Die of a heart attack, diabetes, stroke, or cancer in middle age, but still able-bodied.

Don't do that shit. Live to 90 and die in a nursing home while needing a walker to get around.

[Anonymous No.3216451]

>>3216406
cool arguments bro
>>3216367
thought experiment dont count, no matter how many people recreate them in their minds

[Anonymous No.3216459]

>>3216422
We can suppose God created the universe, judges us, is omniscient, but not completely omnipotent. That would solve the problem of evil nicely.

[Anonymous No.3216462]

>>3216407
Omniscience is impossible and illogical. Do some fucking research.

Questions for you, retard:

1) If God knows all things, do you really have free will?

2) Does God have free will?

People smarter than you have already reached the ultimate logical conclusion: omniscience is impossible. No being could possibly possess this attribute.

[Anonymous No.3216467]

>>3216346
If something can be believed without evidence, it can also be disbelieved without evidence - Christopher Hitchens

However, an atheist would say the balance of probability is on the side of God not existing.

[Anonymous No.3216471]

>>3216451
Well it isn't the same. I can't argue with someone who refuses to acknowledge that fact simply because they want to hold onto a cherished belief from childhood or convince themselves their not an "angsty teenage atheist"

Saying it's unscientific to presuppose nonexistent is at worst wrong and at best misleading. For one thing science doesn't presuppose anything about god (existence or nonexistence).

[Anonymous No.3216472]

>>3216462
Omniscience means "all-knowing". That means God knows all, but does not have the absolute power to do anything he wants.

[Anonymous No.3216486]

>>3216472
>but does not have the absolute power to do anything he wants
What the fuck are you talking about.

[Anonymous No.3216494]

>>3216471
I do not find the evidence to be in favor of atheism, which is why I don't believe in that.

[Anonymous No.3216497]

>>3216472
You only need to "solve" the problem of evil if you really want to hold onto that arbitrary condition that is god. For the atheist, there is no "problem of evil" so you can't tell them to embrace god for this reason.

[Anonymous No.3216498]

>>3216419
why would it be better to live more?
don't you see that everything we say and do is just a product of our instincts and environment
and the only reason we live is to fulfill them
be it fucking women
making money
or exploring the word
we either please our lust, greed or curiosity
there is no point in us living
i'm not saying that you should commit a suicide
all i'm saying is that there is no point in continuing the cycle
and if you really want to be humane should you first ask if your children want to live or is it just better to force them anyway so that you could feel like a parent for just a while because you're afraid that you'll be the dropout of society

people should think before they talk

[Anonymous No.3216503]

Really, free will is perfectly compatible with determinism, and with an omnipotent agency.

But an omnipotent agency is not compatible with accountability, responsibility. You may make your own decisions, but it would be perverse for such a being to hold you responsible for them according to its arbitrary rules, since it would have been trivial for it to make sure you didn't break the rules, and trivial for it to change the rules.

[Anonymous No.3216506]

>>3216497
I dont think you understand the concept of good and evil and the purpose of struggle.

[Anonymous No.3216512]

>>3216467
multiple confirmations of your so called evidence dont make the case tighter, one disconfirmation is enough to shatter everything
>>3216471
ok so asking the question of wether god exists or not is unscientific
why the fuck do all u atheistfags then still dwell in a notion of superiority of having obtained the ultimate truth?

[Anonymous No.3216519]

>>3216503
That's supposing the rules are arbitrary and not absolute.

[Anonymous No.3216523]

>>3216459
Only if you don't think about it for more than three seconds. Oh, right. You're religious.

So God created the Universe? Fine.
And he's omniscient, but not omnipotent? Fine.
Anything with omniscience logically does not possess free will. He is a machine acting out a script. So why worship him?

Omniscience also means you have no free will. God is ultimately responsible for all of your decisions. He knew how the Universe would play out when he created it. His "judgement" is bullshit.

[Anonymous No.3216525]

>>3216494
Atheism doesn't necessarily make any propositions for you to choose to believe in or not.

At it's heart, atheism is just open-mindedness to anything that may be the ultimate reason for or cause of existence.

Any idea of god or other reason or cause for existence that you can come up with at this point is arbitrary, and vague.

there could be an near infinite number of inconceivable explanations to everything that is unknown.

[Anonymous No.3216530]

>>3216506
I knew someone was going to respond like that.


You don't understand what the "problem of evil" is

[Anonymous No.3216531]

>>3216523
Omnipotence would mean no free will, because then God could have absolute control over you and evil would not exist.

[Anonymous No.3216541]

>>3216523
I dont think you understand the concept of omniscience. A micro example would be when you are dreaming, inside the dream you are omnicience of the reality.
Its really not that hard to fathom. Just try a little.

[Anonymous No.3216545]

>>3216512
>why the fuck do all u atheistfags then still dwell in a notion of superiority of having obtained the ultimate truth?

Atheists don't do this. idiots do (religious or not).

Atheists merely question the whether or not YOU have found the ultimate truth.

[Anonymous No.3216548]

>>3216512

And not a single disconfirmation was given.

[Anonymous No.3216563]

>>3216531
Just because you have the power does not mean that you use it.
Lets say im god. I create a ball, place it on top of a hill. The ball starts rolling. Because im god i can stop the ball but instead i just let it roll. Instead of controlling the ball i control the hill. Now imagine the gravity is your free will. This is my personal philosophy of god.

[Anonymous No.3216565]

>>3216523
>So why worship him?

If he created you and holds the fate of your soul in his hands, that's a pretty sound reason.

[Anonymous No.3216566]

if god is omnibenevolent, he would want to stop evil.

if god is omnipotent, he could stop evil.

evil exists.

The Inconsistent Triad, ladies and gentlemen.

[Anonymous No.3216577]

>>3216472
>Omniscience means "all-knowing". That means God knows all, but does not have the absolute power to do anything he wants.

Yeah. I know. But you clearly haven't thought it out, yet.

If God is all-knowing, he knows everything about everything. Past, present, future. That means he knows what you'll do before you do it. That means you don't really have free will.

It also means God knows what he will do before he does it. That means God has no free will.

Both of those points raise ridiculous paradoxes. Use your fucking brain, for fuck's sake.

[Anonymous No.3216578]

>>3216566
See here, the evidence is not in favor of a completely omnipotent god.

[Anonymous No.3216580]

>>3216563
not about using it, the mere fact that he can and doesnt is enough.

also, he is omniscient, and knows everything that is was or will be. how can you have free will if god knows what decision you would make in a situation?

[Anonymous No.3216582]

>>3216548
learn to Popper

[Anonymous No.3216584]

>>3216577
I don't think you understand what free will is.

[Anonymous No.3216594]

>>3216566
You are worse then the fags who ask why god created pain.
Evil exist because you have free will. It would be pointless for God to stop evil. Thats our responsibility. He's already spoon fed you enough. Grow up.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3216595]

>>3216584
>I don't think you understand what free will is.
Most people don't.

(Argument that free will and determinalism are compatible) Daniel Dennett lecture on "Free Will" (Edinburgh University)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKLAbWFCh1E

[Anonymous No.3216600]

>>3216584
>>3216584

Abilty to choose which course of action to take in a dilemma, where it is possible for you to choose either one.

[Anonymous No.3216604]

>>3216580
Because you were free to make that decision. Its not that hard. Honestly.

[Anonymous No.3216608]

>>3216594
god didnt create pain or pleasure, we evolved the ability to feel such things.

[Anonymous No.3216615]

>>3216604
but we werent able to make a decision. thats my point. lets say a man will commit a murder tomorrow. god knows this; he is omniscient. how can the murderer choose not to kill the person?

[Anonymous No.3216620]

>>3216608
You didnt understand any implication of what i said.
Actually try this time. Evolution is not an argument against god. Evolution would result from gods will.

[Anonymous No.3216624]

My whole problem with religion started with the concept of worship itself. Anyone who demands to be worshiped is not worthy of it.

[Anonymous No.3216626]

>>3216255
>Everyone else is arguing about God again
>I'm still perplexed by this

Can anyone answer this? If Pinocchio said "My nose will grow" and his nose did indeed grow, does that mean that in the moment where he asked the question, his predetermined future was one where he would never lie again so when he says this, he's taken into a parallel universe?

Then again, /sci/ has predetermined vs determined discussions a lot. I think in total, considering whether Pinocchio lives in a determined or predetermined future and whether or not his nose grows, the question has 4 viable answers. Or am I so stupid that this is kiddy shit to everyone?

[Anonymous No.3216632]

>>3216615
God knows it, but if he stopped the murderer, he wouldn't have free will. He has to allow you the choice whether to follow his rules or not.

[Anonymous No.3216633]

>>3216615

It would still be the murderers free will to perform the action.

But it would be wrong for god to hold him accountable for it.

[Anonymous No.3216634]

>>3216620
or, evolution is inevitible. why do we need god to explain evolution? it occurs logically, by means of natural selection. occams razor.

[Anonymous No.3216631]

>>3216615
Because you choose to kill the person. Relative perspective of time. From his eyes you already made the decision. He doesnt choose for you.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3216636]

>>3216626
That's a simple logical paradox. Thus far, logic works pretty well in describing the universe, and thus as you have arrived at a logical paradox, I would bet that one of your assumptions or arguments is faulty. I believe that the assumption that there can exist a boy whose nose grows when he lies is the faulty assumption. There can be no such boy.

This is very related to Russell's Paradox. This is also why in ZF sets may not contain themselves - the self reference leads to paradoxes.

[Anonymous No.3216637]

>>3216634
Because God is the most logical and created the universe. Of course its perfect. Why occams razor works. Whats your point.

[Anonymous No.3216650]

>>3216626

Answer: Pinocchio's nose grows in response to arousal, not as a lie detector. He also becomes aroused by going against social norms, being a naughty boy, such as by lying. So posing such an annoying question would certainly give him jollies, and make his nose grow.

[Anonymous No.3216651]

>>3216632
>God knows it, but if he stopped the murderer, he wouldn't have free will. He has to allow you the choice whether to follow his rules or not.

Again, if god is all-knowing, there is no free action on the murderer's part. Not even god's actions would be free, since he knows all of his own actions.

[Anonymous No.3216653]

>>3216632
You can disobey God all you want, but if you do, you won't get into Heaven because he cannot be around sin. It's his kryptonite. Only it doesn't harm God, it harms you.

[Anonymous No.3216660]

>>3216651
Knowing your own actions.
I dont think you understand the principle of observing yourself. You also are implying the future exist on a concrete platform, but thats a different argument

[Anonymous No.3216661]

>>3216584
>I don't think you understand what free will is.

No, I guess not. Centuries of philosophers and theologians apparently don't understand it, either.

So please, enlighten us all: How can one have free will if another already knows the outcome of every decision?

[Anonymous No.3216662]

>>3216631
but he couldnt have chosen any other way. his action was the effect of countless causes which went before. the murderer is a product of the universe, and a product of god if god made the universe. he didnt choose to be who he is, and who he is determines how he acts.

[Anonymous No.3216673]

>>3216626
are there mathematical or real life equivalents of this story?

[Anonymous No.3216677]

>>3216637
the universe is inefficient at creating what god wants, which, as you think, is the existence of evil and suffering, which exist for the sole purpose of us trying to stop it.

[Anonymous No.3216679]

>>3216662
>the murderer is a product of the universe
No, the murder is a product of his interaction with the universe. He chose to be a murder. Without people to murder there is no concept of murder yet he still exist. He was not born a murder. He passively and or actively allowed himself to become on