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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3183929 No.3183929 [Reply] [Original]

Wisdom, is admitting you know nothing.

>> No.3183934

Wrong. It's understanding the limits of your knowledge so you don't let superstitions interfere with reason.

>> No.3183936

>>3183934

and you, are truly not wise says socrates.

>> No.3183935

When I trip, I realize this

>> No.3183941

>>3183934

all knowledge is limited, and relative. nothing is absolute.

>> No.3183937

No, wisdom is being able to make good choices, decisions and judgments.

That's literally what the word means. -dom coming from the same root as doom: judgment.

>> No.3183942

>>3183936
No because that's what socrates meant, not your misinterpreted popsci version.

>> No.3183952
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3183952

>>3183942

no, i have an MA in philosophy

>> No.3183950

>>3183937

"good" is a subjective judgement based upon perspective.

you are truly not wise

>> No.3183954

>>3183941
How can you know the limits of knowledge if those limits are unknowable?

If knowledge is relative then it must be relative to other knowledge and in totality all knowledge is universal.

If nothing is absolutely true then nothing is absolutely false either.

>> No.3183957

>>3183950
Indeed. That also means that "good" does not mean "admitting you know nothing".

Etymology: 2
armchair philosopher: 0

>> No.3183959

>>3183952
I am the grand poobah of the zimbar star empire. Your move.

>> No.3183961

>>3183954

we dont know the limits, thats why present knowledge is limited... we dont know if what we currently know is the end, or if it continues.

youre not thinking outside the box padawan.

>> No.3183964

>>3183957

you drew the link between the two. no connection was made by me.

all i'm finding are people who think they have answers and are argumentative out of a desire to be correct.

>> No.3183965

I am smart enough to know that I am dumb.

>> No.3183972

>>3183957
>>3183954
>>3183942
>>3183936
>>3183934

socrates never answered questions, he only asked them. because he knew he had no definitive answers because there was no guarantee that they would be correct. that is wisdom, however when told he was wise, he denied it.

>> No.3183978

>>3183961
I wasn't trying to think outside the box, I was using your line of thought to show how it is futile.

>we dont know the limits, thats why present knowledge is limited
I'm not trying to hate but this is tect book circular reasoning.

We don't know that things are absolute truths, we assume things are true out of necessity, we know if we lay in the cold mud instead of a warm bed we will be very uncomfortable, when we see 1 apple placed next to another apple and count 2 apples we assume 1+1=2 and so forth..

>> No.3183986

At least don't bring this faggotry to a science board. Keep to /lit/, /phi/ or /fag/ or something.

>> No.3183990

I don't know "nothing" though.

I know I exist in some form, somewhere.

>> No.3183991

>>3183964
Oh really? You said that wisdom was admitting you know nothing. I corrected you and provided yuo with the real meaning of the word, and hence what criteria one needs to qualify in order to be said to be wise. You commented that "good" was a subjective judgment based on perspective, however wisdom objectively means being able to make good choices, judgments and decisions, which is clearly at odds with what you say wisdom is.

I'm sorry , but you don't get to decide what words mean kiddo.
If you want to describe some quality as "admitting you know nothign" you're gonna have to make up a new word for it.

>> No.3183992

>>3183978

cold mud vs a warm bed is comfortable when applied to the proper perspective and is never an absolute truth. explain the absurdity of suicide... isnt it an absolute truth that all man wants to stay alive? not in the perspective of certain individuals...

would a quantum view of the world agree with certainty that 2 separate apples are actually separate?

>> No.3183994

>>3183941
how is death not absolute, whether it be passing on to other life.
but it is an absolute that you will cease existing in this sense of life.

>> No.3183996

>>3183991

wow, quick to condescending and angry are we? you're talking semantics friend, i'm talking applications.

dont read too far into everything with the assumption that your view is the only one that is correct.

>> No.3183998

>>3183994

we are made of atoms, atoms are never destroyed. life changes into something different.

>> No.3184002

>>3183994

what defines life then, consciousness? are we sure that consciousness ceases to exist? could it evolve into something else at death?

>> No.3184004

>>3183996
Looks like you're the one who's angry about getting told so hard after he assumed a word meant something it didn't.

Wisdome is being able to make good decisions , choices and judgments, not simply admitting that you know nothing.

Cry some more.

>> No.3184008

>>3184004

lol. you like to try hard at this dont you? you can believe that my friend. i'm not going to try to change you mind, because you might be correct. however you still missed the whole point.

>> No.3184010

>admit i know nothing
>wait how do i know i know nothing if i know nothing
>mind implodes

>> No.3184009

>>3183998
so it's an absolute that atoms are never destroyed?

>> No.3184014

>>3184009

Depends what you mean by "destroyed".

Their constituent parts never cease to exist, but the atom as a unit can.

>> No.3184015

>>3184004

and again, arent good decisions, and judgments are a matter of perspective. so who decides what decision made is good? how does one discern from which is the wiser? are you assuming there are universal truths? would wisdom then only apply to the general universal truths?

>> No.3184023

>>3184009

how about, we can assume that to be absolute knowledge until our knowledge of the subject matter is changed by new evidence? do you understand what i'm getting at?

>> No.3184029

>>3184014
yes but from what has been stated these parts of the atom no matter how small will continue to exist.

also your conciousness will cease to exist.

>> No.3184031

>>3184014

so then are we ever destroyed? what defines us?

>> No.3184033

>>3184031
my point from my previous three comments: >>3183994
>>3184009
>>3184029
>>3184029

>> No.3184035

>>3184014
So neutrons and protons don't decay or participate in reactions? Is that what you're saying?

>> No.3184039

>>3184031

Whatever forms this seemingly consistent and continuous sentience in all of us.

>> No.3184042

>>3184033
and that was a fail comment. too tired for this shit

>> No.3184045

>>3184029

are you certain that consciousness ceases to exist?

>> No.3184050

>>3184035

No.

Proton decays the constituent parts of that proton still exist.

I'm talking about the elementary particles (or what ever the smallest unit possible is) which make up said atom.

>> No.3184053

>>3184039

and does that ever cease to exist in its entirety? or does that transform into something different upon death? do we know with certainty?

>> No.3184059

>>3184050
And what if these elementary particles annihilate with their antiparticles?

>> No.3184062

>>3184015
None of those questions are relevent to the discussion.

Wisdom is being able to make good judgments, decisions and choices. That is what the word wisdom means.
Admitting you know nothing is not the same as being able to make good judgemtns, choices and decisions, infact it has nothing to do with it. So admitting you know nothing is not wisdom.

This should be obvious.
>>3184008
I am correct, objectively. Are you trying to change your agument now? Pretend that you didn't say that wisdom is admitting you know nothing? How pathetic.

>> No.3184068

>>3184045
not so much as cease to exist, but at some point will cease to exist in its current state, attached to this physical body that is.

>> No.3184072

>>3184062

you simply cant answer the questions, or see holes in your argument and insist on standing your ground with your statements. can you answer those questions posed? >>3184015

and no, i never changed my argument. i stand by my statement that wisdom is admitting you know nothing. you refuse to continue the discussion by repeating what you initially stated. you might be correct with that statement you made... however we will never know, you will never know, until you question your assumptions. can you answer those questions i posed, or do you refuse to out of the desire to keep your self esteem in tact?

>> No.3184075

>>3184068

is it attached to this physical body? can you prove that with certainty? can you prove it changes at any time?

>> No.3184080

>>3184059

More elementary particles are ejected.

>> No.3184082

>>3184072
If wisdom is admitting you know nothing...

Then admitting you know nothing means you possess wisdom.

But then you possess wisdom, and you're advocating it.

You don't see the paradox?

>> No.3184085

>>3184075
i would say decapitation would be an experiment that would prove that one.

>> No.3184084

>>3184082

advocating you posesss wisdom, and posessing wisdom without advocation is different in its entirety.

it is paradoxical if you assume you are wise.

>> No.3184092

>>3184080
Photons are not elementary particles.

>> No.3184093

>>3184085

how?

>> No.3184098

>>3184093
notice there is a slight change before and after?

>> No.3184099

>>3184092

Pretty sure they are.

>> No.3184100

>>3184098

who notices? and how does this become knowledge?

>> No.3184119
File: 67 KB, 300x402, 1307376155901.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3184119

herpaderp

>> No.3184134

>>3184100
now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
its easy to argue there are no absolutes (even though that itself ironically defeats the argument, being that that is an absolute). but i doubt you can prove that there are no absolutes. its all a concept. and perhaps one day you will find out.

>> No.3184135

>>3184099
Then you're very much wrong.
At any rate, no constituent parts remain. The photons carry no information about the two particles that annihilated to produce them.
The constituent parts are destroyed.

>> No.3184141

>>3184134

arguing? i'm asking a simple question. can you not answer it? you made a statement, and i want the statement to be backed up before your initial statement is assumed to be true.

>> No.3184147

>>3184135

>The photons carry no information about the two particles that annihilated to produce them

Aside from the location of the annihilation.

>> No.3184148

>>3184134

and i'm glad you're so certain of everything. i bet it helps you sleep at night.

“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.” Lord Kelvin

>> No.3184150

>>3184072
>you might be correct with that statement you made... however we will never know,
>implying wisdom is not derived from the word for judgment
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Wisdom&searchmode=none
abstract suffix of state, from O.E. dom "statute, judgment" (see doom), already active as a suffix in O.E. (cf. freodom, wisdom); from stem *do- "do" + *-moz abstract suffix. Cf. cognate Ger. -tum, O.H.G. tuom.


Still trying to deny it, huh kid?
the questions >>3184015 ask do not change the objective fact taht wisdom means the ability to make good judgments, choices or decisions. You're just trying to wriggle out of the fact that you used the word incorrectly and got its meaning wrong by claiming that wisdom is admitting you know nothing, when it objectively it isn't.

Massive butthurt detected.

>> No.3184153

>>3184141
are you asking a simple question? did i make a statement?

>> No.3184158
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3184158

>>3183929
Get out of my tub, Socrates.

>> No.3184157

>>3184134

the key to answering the paradox you propose is by not making assumptions to begin with. the goal is to take things for what they are until they're disproven or proven. if you cant prove that consciousness ceases to exist with certainty, then dont make assumptions about its nature.

>> No.3184169

>>3184150

you simply highlight youself as butthurt by exemplifying the extent to which you search for answers to support your initial statement. youre still discussing semantics, and refuse to answer my questions. a DISCUSSION... with you is feutile. you like to assume you have answers and state "facts." you need to mature with your knowledge.

you STILL refuse to continue the argument for the sake of maintaining your self esteem.

so again, you claim to have absolute truth's however you refuse to answer those questions. childish if you ask me.

so again, you make your statement, and i still ask >>3184015

>> No.3184171

>>3184148
youre wrong i am certain of nothing. rather i am hoping that eventually i ll be able to experience something else other than this life.

and so youre saying that its an absolute that heavier than air flying machines are possible.

>> No.3184185

>>3184171

i'm saying nothing. i'm repeating his statement.

>> No.3184196

>>3184029

"also your conciousness will cease to exist."

that seems like you're pretty certain of something does it not>>3184171

>> No.3184202

>>3184196
“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.” Lord Kelvin,
that seems like you're pretty certain of something doesn't it?

i underlined that what i said was in hope of. i admitted that its not technically an absolute.

>> No.3184212
File: 40 KB, 270x254, 1304681092278.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3184212

There ain't nothing bad about wisdom dog - I would rather know nothing AND something, than just know something, if you know what I mean.

Pic related
>you

>> No.3184216

>>3184202

doesnt seem to clear to be in hope with anything you stated. but if that's what you say then fine, at least youre getting it now.

>> No.3184226

>>3183937
literally wisdom would mean
"to see doom" or "to see judgement" or "to know doom" or "to know judgement"

>> No.3184236

this got everyone so frustrated pretty quickly.

all OP is saying is that regardless of judgement, or making decisions or the knowledge of particles existing of not, is that if you are quick to ASSUME something as an absolute truth. or JUDGE something a certain way, or make a "good" decision with the assumption that all of these things are absolute certainties then you're not truly wise.

you all missed the point. wisdom MIGHT be making a correct judgement, it also might be being able to understand that consciousness ceases to exist but to assume these things are absolute truth's is what is the underlying reason to say that there is a LACK of wisdom.

>> No.3184242

Wisdom is making good use of what you do know. Socrates got himself needlessly executed through his inability to deal with other people; he is not a very good role model.

>> No.3184243

>>3184216
haha perhaps learn to answer other peoples questions as well?
mainly this part: “Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.” Lord Kelvin,
that seems like you're pretty certain of something doesn't it?

if you're having a discussion with someone, at least have the decency to reply to their questions, and don't treat them as a win or lose scenario. just saying what it looks like.

>> No.3184255

>>3184243

i'm not CLAIMING that statement. the statement is used as an example. you again, like most other people, read too far into things than assume. my discussion is not about heavier than air flying machines, maybe it was a poor example.

the point is, you CLAIM that consciousness WILL cease to exist. i questioned your conviction and claim, and it ended with you claiming you never made a statement but it was a hope.

>> No.3184257

>>3183929
No, that's humility.

>> No.3184263

>>3184236

this

>> No.3184267

>>3184242

and socrates got himself killed because he was accused of corrupting the youth in greece. and he was also accused of questioning the morals of society. thats why he got killed.

>> No.3184269

>>3183929
It is a wise man who knows that he knows nothing

>> No.3184280

>>3184269

and if you know you know nothing, isnt that admitting it to yourself?

>> No.3184285

>>3183992
The brain of someone commiting suicide or a being living in an unpredictable quantum universe (presumably) can only think in absolutes, you can only have a finite number of ideas, they must assume something is true such as assume suicide is the best idea or assume there is a 73.53578% chance there are 2 apples. Emphasis on "assume", the being may be aware there are no absolute truths, like you and me, but they still have to reach a decision which means they have to assume something is true or they will just flop on the ground and lay in the cold mud motionless totally rejecting the correlation between their action and the coldness.

This is what Socrates was arguing, you know nothing because everything is based on assumptions, yet the fact you realize this means you can better manage those assumptions, hence a system of logic.

>> No.3184299

oh no. That's a fag.

A wise man on knowing that he knows nothing learns something.

>> No.3184302

>>3184285

can you only have a finite number of ideas? is there a limit to knowledge?

and i agree with your final statement, that is the gist of the whole thread. also this post >>3184236

>> No.3184311

>>3183929
No.
Wisdom is knowing when to admit that you don't know ENOUGH.

>> No.3184313

The wiser you are, the more you realize how little you know.

>> No.3184315

>>3184311

0/10

>> No.3184319

>>3184313

precisely.

>> No.3184320

>>3184315
Why?

>> No.3184321
File: 2.45 MB, 4000x2640, wallpaper-731173.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3184321

Everyone in this thread should read the book "sophie's world" by Josteen Gaarder.
It is absolutely amazing it has 4000 years of philosophy condensed so well. It is gold for the mind.

and socrates purposely said paradoxical statements just to invoke thoughts and ideas as his main work was talking to collective groups and obtain opinions of others rather than just thinking by himself

I interpret OP's quote/ paraphrase of socrates as we can never really hope to grasp the secrets and workings of the universe, yes yes i understand people never thought computers could be possible and the graph of human development is an upward curve but still socrates' point was that we may think we are getting smarter and wiser of the universe and the world but really only a tiny spec of the manifesto of reality is perceivable by us, and understandable.

god i can't wait until i study philosophy for a-level and onwards

>> No.3184323

>>3184313

the more you learn, the less you know.

learning and knowing are different. knowing is assuming something to be absolute truth, learning something is understanding the potential for something to become an absolute truth. by admitting you know nothing you are admitting you can learn everything but know nothing.

>> No.3184326

DON'T YOU DARE TRY YOUR TRANSCENDENT CRAP ON ME ASSHOLE

>> No.3184330

>>3184320

because there is no determinant of what is enough or to little knowledge. and amount of knowledge doesnt imply wisdom.

>> No.3184339

>>3184330

however it is more so how you relate to knowledge, rather than the quantity or quality of what knowledge you possess

>> No.3184399

assuming that there are only 4 elemental aspects to knowledge
>the acquisition of knowledge
>the storage of knowledge
>the application of knowledge
>the value of knowledge

then a person without knowledge if he be a wiseman would ask
>how does one acquire knowledge
>how does one retain knowledge
>how does one exercise knowledge
>how does one evaluate knowledge

if the person without knowledge was not wise and did not seek to ask these questions then how did he know that he needed to acquire knowledge let alone how to acquire knowledge? How did he know that he needed to keep knowledge let alone how to keep knowledge? How did he know that he needed to apply knowledge let alone how to apply knowledge? How did he know that he needed to cherish knowledge if he thought nothing of it in the first place and was merely told to do so?

>> No.3184416

>>3184399
tl;dr something from nothing
that's wisdom

>> No.3184459

>>3184302
The limit to knowledge is your finite brain.

I'm trying to expand on >>3184236, the uncertainty forms the basis for attempting to justify your assumptions, ockham's razor.