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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3162415 No.3162415 [Reply] [Original]

Is the universe
a) deterministic
b) probabilistic
c) Dunno but...


It's not a debate about free will. Seriously, I don't fucking care about free will.

>> No.3162422

wasn't this thread here yesterday?
It is probabalistic.

>> No.3162420

Good, because there is no free will.

>> No.3162427

All current scientific evidence indicates that the universe is probabilistic, but that quantum probabilistic interactions tend to deterministic approximations very quickly at larger length scales.

>> No.3162430

If it's not about free will, this is easy.

Our current understanding of quantum mechanics is probabilistic. If there isn't an underlying determining factor, then the universe is undetermined.

If there is, it's not.

Based on the current theory, it's undetermined.

>> No.3162433

Define free first.

>> No.3162434
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3162434

scientifically we dont know yet. There has been no evidence either way

>> No.3162435

>>3162422
>probabalistic
Cool English, sis.

>> No.3162437
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3162437

>>3162422
Everyday is repost day.

>> No.3162440

>>3162430
the copenhagen interpretation isnt scientifically accepted theory yet

>> No.3162442

>>3162435
shush, impersonator. you know what i mean.

>> No.3162447

It's probabilistic but if we look only on big things then it behaves like a deterministic.

>> No.3162452

>>3162435
It's the science used to calculate the most likely trajectory of a thrown object, duh.

>> No.3162457

>>3162420

yes ther is free will you imposter

>> No.3162458

>>3162440

No shit, but its still probably a good interpretation at the moment. As long as you take it with a bit of open-mindedness.

>> No.3162460
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3162460

>>3162447
I think chaos theory disagrees.

>> No.3162465

>>3162440
The intepretations of QM cannot be distinguised (as far as we can tell so far). The only deterministic QM I know of it de Broglie-Bohm, which says the universe is nonlocal instead (Bell's Theorem says it's one or the other - nonlocal or nondeterministic). This means that you'd have to know everything, everywhere to get rid of the apparent probabilistic nature of reality.

>> No.3162468

If it's probabilistic then that means free will exists.

>> No.3162469

>>3162457
stfu hater

>> No.3162472

>>3162458
you missed my point, ill restate:
>Based on the current theory, it's undetermined.
There is no theory that states it is undetermined. That is actually the copenhagen interpretation, not theory

>> No.3162474

What status does the Born rule have in de Broglie-Bohm theory? Anyway, if you don't want nonlocality in your quantum physics (and why would you), then nature is probabilistic. I don't think any deeper theory is going to overthrow that.

>> No.3162477

>>3162460
>implying you know a shit about chaos theory
Chaos theory actually means that world is deterministic.

>> No.3162480

OP creates a free will thread
Half of the posts are EK shitposting
Typical day in /sci/

>> No.3162486

ITT: People talking about quantum mechanics and chaos theory without knowing what quantum operator and attractor are.

>> No.3162487

>>3162415
a) deterministic

in after/in b4 but--but--but quantum mechanics!

No. The universe knows what it's doing and it knows things we don't know about quantum, I think.

>> No.3162491

>>3162468

nice logic bro

>> No.3162497

Do we really know? We can make assumptions, but we don't know that much about quantum mechanics as to say with certainty that it's either deterministic or probabilistic, do we?

>> No.3162498

>>3162486
/sci/ learns science from TV and newspapers, didn' you know?

>> No.3162499

>>3162480
actually most of those are not me, they are impersonators. and to be hon...

fuck, you are one of the impersonators and you are samefagging.
hmm...

>> No.3162514

>>3162499
Yeah i know i was just trolling you. Not an impersonator btw.

This thread and my post not science -> sage

>> No.3162515

The determinism of the universe is circular.

We're all familliar with the concept of lower levels of complexity determining the action at higher levels, but at the highest levels (i.e conciousness) this loops back around so as to determine the lowest levels (i.e quantum mechanics).

>> No.3162522

>>3162499
lol paranoia setting in. Delicious.

>> No.3162528

deterministic on any useful macroscopic level

>> No.3162534

>>3162499

this trip is not the real EK's trip. It's some lonely basement dweller pretending to be the original EK.

>> No.3162530

>>3162477
Chaos theory makes no claims about the fundamental nature of reality. It is simply a deterministic theory (the math is deterministic) for explaining macroscopic phenomena.

>> No.3162533

>>3162515
Source?

>> No.3162539

>>3162442
yeah, EK is a girl.

>> No.3162555

>>3162415
Freewill is nothing more than the choosing of your environment. After this you maust adhere to the demands of said environment that you chose.

>> No.3162556

>>3162534
Nah, thats EK's real trip, According to the archives she has Over 4000 posts. Its all capital letters except for the lower case 'n' that is the real EK.

>> No.3162566

>>3162530
chaos theory is a mathematical construct that has nothing to do with physical phenomena, macro or micro scopic

>> No.3162569

>>3162534
this is my real trip.

>> No.3162572

>>3162566
>chaos theory is a mathematical construct that has nothing to do with physical phenomena
Newtonian gravity is a mathematical construct that has nothing to do with physical phenomena
General relativity is a mathematical construct that has nothing to do with physical phenomena

>> No.3162581

>>3162530
>Chaos theory makes no claims about the fundamental nature of reality. It is simply a deterministic theory (the math is deterministic) for explaining macroscopic phenomena.
Oh god... Three stupid things in two sentences. How did you come up with this?

>math is deterministic
Probability and statistic are parts of math. And there's no way they can be deterministic.
>Chaos theory makes no claims about the fundamental nature of reality.
It does. Both - quantum mechanics and chaos theory are trying to explain nonlinear systems and both of them can be used to do it.
>for explaining macroscopic phenomena
Not only macroscopic phenomena.

Go and download Schuster's "Deterministic Chaos - An Introduction". Read introduction.
Go back and we can talk.

>> No.3162583

>>3162572
gay

>> No.3162587

>>3162581
>Both - quantum mechanics and chaos theory are trying to explain nonlinear systems and both of them can be used to do it.
double gay

>> No.3162604

>>3162477
My bad - but microscopic events can still influence macroscopic ones - see for example a genetic mutation.

>> No.3162609

All physics can do to help answering that questions is bringing up good theories that fuel the minds of philosophers. Free will and determinism aren't subjects of physics.

>> No.3162608

>>3162572
Newtonian gravity is a mathematical construct designed to describe physical phenomena
General relativity is a mathematical construct designed to descrive physical phenomena
Chaos theory is a mathematical construct designed to describe mathematical phenomena

>> No.3162607

>>3162604
And your point is?
It still means that world is deterministic.

>> No.3162613

Both.
The equations are, as far as we know, partial differential equations which are fully deterministic.

Its the result of measurement which is probabilistic.

SAGE
/THREAD
/END
/FINALWORD

>> No.3162616

>>3162607
ergh, no.
Causality = determinism

>> No.3162620

>>3162613
this, all depends on how you look at it

>> No.3162625

>>3162556

You're just EK posting as anon now.

In the archives it clearly shows there was another EK trip created a good while before this one.

∴ you = a faggot

>> No.3162628

According to the standard model, B. I think it's probably an A that we don't yet understand, and have no evidence for that other than the fact that thus far every supposedly "almost complete" theory has in fact just been a prediction of the results of processes on a smaller level.

>> No.3162637

>>3162415
For 99.9999999999999999% of everything you do in your life, the answer is: "The Universe simply is", you don' t need to know more than that. Why make everything more complicated than it has to be? Just live your life and don't worry about that shit. Use that big brain of yours on more important problems, like how we're going to get off this planet, or how to make fusion power that works and is cheap and reliable, or how to get people to stop killing each other. Leave the useless questions like that for philosophers since they don't seem to have much else to contribute anyway.

>> No.3162640

>>3162499
I'm rather disappointed by this tripcode. 7 characters with the right capitalisation in the wrong place.

>> No.3162642

>>3162625
both are me. one was my old trip. that anon isnt me.

>> No.3162643

>>3162616
Yeah,
Chaos Theory ties causes with effects.

>> No.3162655

>>3162643
I mean they aren't synonimous.

>> No.3162665

>>3162609
No. You are wrong. either is within the dominion of science.

>> No.3163278

If it probabilistic than your entire life is based on some probability, is this better than living in a deterministic worlds. Basically its still deterministic but by a probability.

>> No.3163284

>>3162642

Fuck off EK

>> No.3163824

C Senor