/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.3159926]

What do you think, /sci/?

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/dirtyjobs/mike-rowe-senate-testimony.html

[almostphysicist No.3159956]

>>3159926
I think he's very good with words. I enjoyed the read, and he may have a good point.

[Anonymous No.3159958]

>Mike Rowe: git-er-dun

[Anonymous No.3159962]

Ok, so he wants to encourage Americans to turn down education for lower paying jobs... Makes more sense to have immigrants take these jobs, then push the educated Americans into higher paying jobs. This is globalization. One day, these migrants become the educated.

[Anonymous No.3159966]

If what he says is true (and I'm not going to double check it), its a very real point he's making. If a society is to support itself, it needs the trades just as much as people with STEM degrees.

[almostphysicist No.3159972]

>>3159962
>>3159962
It might not be such a bad thing. At some point certain people need to realize that they are not cut out for college, and learning a trade is more useful to them and us than flipping burgers.

[Anonymous No.3159974]

He gets payed huge amounts of money to be a TV star who does completely different jobs every day for a couple of hours. He has no right defend the idea of doing a shit job for 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week for 45 years. It is completely different. Fuck Mike Rowe.

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3159976]

>>3159962
Well, that will quickly change when the labor supply goes down, and labor demand goes up, raising the labor prices for these jobs. I'm not convinced there is a problem.

[rate my porn at www.sadfag.com No.3159981]

STOP CHANGING THE SIZE OF MY DAMN BROWSER

[Anonymous No.3159985]

We should adopt an educational system as done in much of Europe. Sometime in high school kids should choose whether to pursue a skilled trade or a university degree. Otherwise we're sending all the vocational kids down the wrong path for years, while jamming the 4-year degree model into their head.

[Anonymous No.3159989]

>>3159962

Pretty much this. It is a fact that people with college degrees make more money; it makes economic sense to go to college instead of getting certified to twist pipes on some asshole's sink (not to mention the prestige aspect of employment). If the demand for those workers increases to a point where the pay in those jobs is competitive then they will see an increase of people wanting those jobs. Until then, that work is for immigrants and people too poor/stupid/lazy to get through college.

[rate my porn at www.sadfag.com No.3159991]

well at least now i know that I can be a welder instead of a biology teacher

[Anonymous No.3159992]

>>3159962
>trades
>low paying

lol. A good welder probably makes more than most physicists or biologists.

[Anonymous No.3159994]

>turn down education for lower paying jobs...
>skilled trade
>$40/hour
nope.bmp

[Anonymous No.3159997]

HOW DARE HE WASTE THE TIME OF THE SENATE
THAT'S TAX DOLLARS HE'S WASTING
OBAMA IS GONNA RAISE TAXES
FIRST COLBERT AND NOW THIS
DEMOCRATS ARE A DISGRACE TO THE POSITIONS THEIR AFFORDED

[Anonymous No.3160000]

>>3159981
Go into Firefox's options, select the Content tab, and under the Advanced button for Java settings disable "Move or resize window"

[Anonymous No.3160004]

ITT retarded elitists.
It has nothing to do with the jobs paying lower or being less prestigious. Lots of people go into these trades because they enjoy that kind of work and don't enjoy academia. Stop acting like they are failures. People are different, not everyone is supposed to aim to be a world class researcher.

[Anonymous No.3160006]

>>3159972
Agreed, people should be encouraged into trades. There's no point them staying in school learning biology if they could be learning to be a builder.

>>3159976
True that. There would be a point of cost where it would be worth more for people to do their own handywork rather than employ someone. Maybe the problem he suggested is actually a success in low, specialist prices?

[almostphysicist No.3160010]

>>3159989
>>3159989
What about people who struggle through college, learn next to nothing, graduate with shitty GPAs, then either have no luck finding a job or worse, get hired and fired for being generally useless?

And what about the people who fail out of college? Bear in mind that both groups will have likely taken out loans to pay for however years they made it through.

Some people are better off taking trade jobs than trying college. It is wrong to assume that everyone will succeed in obtaining post secondary education. It may be a good idea to put less pressure on parents to put so much pressure on their children to attend university that they fail to see that maybe university is a poor choice.

[Anonymous No.3160016]

>>3159989
>Biologist: $71,000 / year
>Welder: $68,000 / year
Right. Thats a significant difference?

*sources:
http://alis.alberta.ca/wageinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?aspAction=GetWageDetail&format=html&am
p;RegionID=20&NOC=2121
http://alis.alberta.ca/wageinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?aspAction=GetWageDetail&format=html&am
p;RegionID=20&NOC=7265

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3160013]

>>3160006
If there is such a derth of jobs, and they pay well, then I agree with him that we have a problem. I commented on another poster that if these jobs don't pay well, then that people don't want them is normal and expected.

[Anonymous No.3160015]

>>3160004

Yeah some people aim for shitty low paying jobs that no one likes. We call them idiots.

[Anonymous No.3160018]

>>3160004

>complain about being judged
>HURRR YOU FUCKING ELITISTS IN YOUR IVORY TOWERS

Fuck off. You're the same fucks who wants everyone to be politically correct and respect everything and makes sure we don't offend anybody.

Got some bad news: NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT A BROOM MAKER. OR A POTTER. YOU ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING SHIT. AT LEAST GET A TRADE THAT BENEFITS SOCIETY YOU IGNORANT FUCK. IF YOU WANT TO LIVE LIKE IT'S 1800 AND MAKE WAGON WHEELS, GO OFF THE GRID AND STOP WASTING POWER WITH YOUR INANE OPINIONS.

[Anonymous No.3160020]

What a faggot. How does he think America's economy is going to succeed? We have PLENTY of retards in this country who are useful for nothing but "shoveling." People who have the opportunity need to become engineers, architects, doctors, and scientists.

If he is talking about banning liberal arts, I'm all for it, since it's just a waste of fucking time and useless for the economy. But without STEM, the country cannot compete.

[Anonymous No.3160022]

>>3160010

I accounted for those people in the "too stupid for collge" category. Obviously not everyone is cut out for college, otherwise we wouldn't have any fucking janitors (and janitors are really important).

[Anonymous No.3160026]

>>3160016
By the same token
>Mathematician: $58,000 / year

http://alis.alberta.ca/wageinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?aspAction=GetWageDetail&format=html&am
p;RegionID=20&NOC=2161

[Anonymous No.3160033]

>>3160004

My dad is a plumber and owns his own business.

If you break it down, he makes about $70 an hour.

Trades are extremely lucrative for intelligent and motivated people.

The minions and grunts will make minimum wage whether they're blue or white collar.

You can't outsource plumbers, electricians, and carpenters like you can with 90% of jobs that now require college degrees.

[Anonymous No.3160036]

In New Zealand, people can train for a trade as a part of school, and often go into courses to become a builder early. Not sure what it's like everywhere else, but It's pretty important to move kids out of school into trades if school isn't for them. Can be a good career too, as people end up owning building companies.

[Anonymous No.3160037]

>>3160020
Do you think ANYTHING people with STEM degrees produce could possibly happen without skilled workers? Because you're fucking out of your mind, if you are.

[Anonymous No.3160038]

yes I approve heartily

higher education isn't for everyone
but pretty much everyone wants an above-shit-level job and a decent level of pay

it's kinda sad to think that with just a few years of vocational training, both dead-end college drop-outs and miserable minimum wage employees could instead be making a fair buck doing skilled labour work that we actually really need done

[Anonymous No.3160043]

I would go blue collar if it wasn't for the union. Can't catch a break unless you are family.

[Anonymous No.3160045]

This is yet another failure of America's one-size-fits-all educational system. Forcing all the mathematicians/artists, abstract/concrete thinkers through the same organization is inefficient and ineffective.

A voucher system where students can take an educational credit to public or private schools seems best.

[Anonymous No.3160046]

>>3160018
>Hurr durr how does society work?

Not even samefag.

[OP No.3160047]

>>3159989

[Anonymous No.3160051]

>>3160016

Biologist. Probably works in a nice air conditioned lab setting for modest hours per week.

Welder. Deals with fucking stupid unions, works in shitty factory conditions doing a shitty job (I used to weld) for shitty hours.

It isn't all about pay. I used to weld and made the decision to go to college despite making $60k my first year on the job. 1 more semester to go for my B.S. in math and I have no regrets.

[Anonymous No.3160052]

>Ph.D. in Mathematics
>any job I want
>$300k starting
>blue collar faggots are suffering major butthurt

Where's your god now?

[Anonymous No.3160057]

>>3160047

Plumber detected. Enjoying cleaning up other people's shit for the rest of your life.

[Anonymous No.3160061]

>>3160051
>Used to weld
>Now have graduate engineering degree
>Regret that decision

This is my life right now.

[Anonymous No.3160071]

My dad was a civil engineer, did a good job, and made a lot of money. And I know its not a trade, but every single night over dinner he'd grumble at least once about how he regretted not becoming a cook. Its not about prestige or anything. Its about doing what you want to do.

[Anonymous No.3160079]

>>3160076
*mansion

[Anonymous No.3160076]

>>3160052
>Where's your god now?

Same place as the guy you want to fix your house, apparently.

[Anonymous No.3160083]

>>3160071
I'm super glad my field of interest also provides decent income. Doing something you dont like for the rest of your life for money will make you super miserable. On the other hand being poor must suck too. Feel bad for artfags.

[OP No.3160087]

>>3160057
I'm not a plumber, I'm planning on going into medicine. I just think it's interesting that people automatically associate trades with lower paying jobs while many people with 4-year degrees end up as lab technicians and research assistants getting payed equal if not less than most established tradesmen.
>mfw you assume I'm a plumber when I make legitimate statements

[Anonymous No.3160089]

>>3160079

In America? Cheap-ass kindling, except for your 40 foot fireplace which had to be built to code, and probably wasn't.

[Anonymous No.3160095]

>>3160087

You and every other fucking 13 year old in your middle school plan on going into medicine. Have fun making my fries after you fail out of your undergrad biology program poorfag.

[Anonymous No.3160100]

>>3160095
I'm a grad student in computer science. I agree with him.

[Anonymous No.3160107]

>>3159962
Its more like this

>tell white people they should stop breeding
>tell white people they are evil if they don't let brown people into their country
>tell these people they won't do those jobs
>flood the country with immigrants
>increase welfare
>white people stop having children
>white people become extinct

[Anonymous No.3160113]

ITT: A few people with college degrees and a few people that failed out of college defending their shitty jobs.

>my face on payday

[Anonymous No.3160128]

>>3160087

I sat at the math department table for my university on the day that high school kids come to check it out. It seriously felt like 20%+ of the kids I talked to were "planning on med school." I laughed on the inside knowing most of them would be changing their major to art history after one semester of biology/chemistry.

[OP No.3160127]

>accepted into medical program and starting in September
okay.jpg

[Anonymous No.3160136]

There are a few arguments going on in here. First: The people who point out that the trades suck because the hours suck and the work is sometimes physically demanding etc etc, yeah, that's true.

The people who think that going to school for years means they're going to graduate and live the high life without dealing with equally shitty unions, equally retarded hours, etc etc, have really bought the american dream hook, line, and sinker. I wish you guys luck, I really do. Life is tough no matter how you go about it. One thing is for sure: we DO need to absolutely end this cultural thing where everybody thinks they need a college degree to be a self actualized person. Frankly it's pragmatic: the huge number of people cramming themselves into schools is making it more difficult for the students who are actually talented in both the sciences and liberal arts combined. School wouldn't cost so much if it wasn't perceived as utterly necessary as air and water. Most people come out of school and haven't learned shit.

[Anonymous No.3160137]

>>3160127

Right, we believe you.

[Anonymous No.3160144]

I think Rowe is on to something here.. There are a lot of dipshits out there who could be building our buildings and contributing to society, but schools have stopped a lot of programs that could have guided them to a career fixing your toilets and roofs.

A lot of you already seem to agree that some people are shitty idiots who are wasting their time with dumb degrees that will put them in crap jobs anyways. Why not support the idea of guiding them towards a trade instead?

[Anonymous No.3160155]

>>3160136
amen

[Anonymous No.3160156]

>>3160144
The problem is with the exact tone of your post. If you regard those positions as should belong to idiots, nobody wants them. Nobody wants to be an idiot, even if they're not cut out for other work. Culture prevents them, and their parents, from considering anything other than a traditional 4 year.

[Anonymous No.3160158]

>>3160136

Degrees for anything really useful require graduate work for good jobs. I think the problem (one of them anyway) is that people are like "herp derp 4 years I'm done, time to make the big bucks!" because they've been told that rich people have college degrees. Then they graduate and can't find work with their Art History degree (I have a friend with one, she drives a forklift at a warehouse).

[Anonymous No.3160167]

>>3160158
>Anything useful requires a graduate degree
lol

[Anonymous No.3160170]

>>3160136
>we DO need to absolutely end this cultural thing where everybody thinks they need a college degree to be a self actualized person.

Conspiracy theory time!
You ready for this?

>America has more college loan debt than credit card debt.
>Most students waste their lives and money at college anyways, paying into a culture of overpriced books, made to fail curriculum, and a glorified culture of drinking and burning out.
>There is an organization which is enforcing the idea of college so people will need to pay out the ass, so they take out a college loan (the most vile and crooked system of lending in place in human history), eventually default, amount to nothing, and owe money for the rest of their lives.
>Even those who do succeed still have a high chance of getting shitty jobs and having to pay even more for even longer because they went to a more prestigious college or a more difficult degree.
>It's all a giant fucking scam that ensures you never have money forever.

[Anonymous No.3160177]

U MAD: THE THREAD

[Scientist !!ThFjnJh4EkH No.3160176]

>>3160158
I would like to point out CS aka code monkey-ing is different. If you have a CS degree, and are a good code monkey, you can make the big bucks right out of college. My company is currently looking for hires in that category, and you will make good money right out of college.

[Anonymous No.3160198]

>>3160170
That doesn't even sound like a conspiracy theory. Anybody in this thread who is actually in college feels the burn every time they have to buy a textbook, every time they take out another loan to try and finish up that degree, and every time they pay thousands of dollars to get jerked around by either a GTF with no educational experience, a tenured professor who doesn't give a shit, or an untenured professor who is too busy with his research trying to become tenured to bother with something so insignificant as a student who will keep paying into the college no matter what - because people believe that NO MATTER THE COST, education is always worth it. It's a fucking sacred cow.

[Anonymous No.3160202]

The fact is manual labor, no matter how skilled is fucking back breaking and if I could make the same amount of money doing something else that I enjoy I would rather do that, and in order to do that I have to graduate from university.

I have to know how of a jack of all trades, not a master craftsman but i've done tens of thousands of dollars worth of carpentry, automotive work, etc for myself that I could pay somebody else to do. And the truth is, if I had the money, I would have rather have paid somebody else to do it. It sucks.

[Anonymous No.3160214]

>>3160198
It's not education that's the sacred cow, it's the diploma, the degree, the idea that having a piece of paper with an official looking stamp on it means you are somehow more valuable and worthy as a person, compared to others.

Take a look at this thread. So many graduates who think they are qualified to look down on the plumbers and the tradesmen.

The biggest sting I felt was when I got my diploma and it didn't change anything. First few days were like, "Hell yeah. I'm done, and the world is full of open doors!"

Yeah, turns out my diploma was only good for covering a hole in my wall.

[Anonymous No.3160219]

>>3160198

I, for one, am not planning to repay my 100k college loan. Instead, I'm going to move to another country with my prestigious degree and enjoy a nice life without debt.

[Anonymous No.3160226]

>>3159926

Something smells fishy to me
When people like this 'pop icon' are hired to promote ideas they literally take no part in, it rings alarm bells.

NO i don't want Tom Cruise telling me about the samurai
NO i don't want A forest fire telling me about protecting the fucking rainforests
NO i don't want Mike Rowe telling me about hard work/skilled labor

I don't get how this gap cannot be fixed by simply supply/demand economics. If there are few plumbers, the demand is going to go up and the pay raise will motivate other people to become plumbers etc.

What the fuck?

[Anonymous No.3160229]

>mfw the people ITT

fuck you guys, I'm going back to the physics forum.

[Anonymous No.3160239]

>>3160214
I agree. The fact is, if you wanted just the education you could probably get it for nearly free. You could sneak into large lecture halls and audit 100 and 200 level courses. You could become friends with a mathematician and just hang out - I've never, ever met a mathematician who isn't just THRILLED to talk about math with somebody interested. And on and on; the information is out there.

What people want to pay for is the degree, because the degree says they'll be set for life.

[Anonymous No.3160246]

>>3160202
some people like a hard days work. I switched majors because I didn't want to be on my ass all day designing power supplies for industrial machinery. I would rather maintain the machinery at the site.

[Anonymous No.3160250]

>>3160229
Lol me too

[Anonymous No.3160266]

Most of you assuming that laborers don't pursue any higher education, although most probably don't.

My stepfather is a landscaper, and he graduated with a bachelor's in marketing. Who's to say that you can't be a skilled laborer AND have a higher education? It's possible to take brains and brawn and combine them and be successful? He does it every day.

I'm not saying this as a rebuttal to anybody. Just throwing it out there.

[Anonymous No.3160272]

You know what sucks? I passed on a chance to pursue a trade that would have made me more money for a few days of work than I make in an entire month right now..

[Anonymous No.3160323]

>>3160229

The children with entitlement issues are loose. It's expected and that's one reason why I don't come here during the summer.

[Anonymous No.3160350]

>>3160323
the funny part is I don't even know which side of the debate that comment is referring to

[Anonymous No.3160394]

>>3160323


Exactly, this is why I can't fucking stand /sci/ sometimes. It's like 80% of this board has some idiotic superiority complex and cringes at the thought of doing any kind of physical work. Grow a pair, faggots.

[Nuka-Cola !dbLFTRZqOI No.3161405]

hell, i'd love to pick up a trade alongside my software engineering career. i'm already halfway to being an electrician what with my dad being a contractor and continuously teaching me the trade in the early years

don't turn your noses up at the professions which keep the modern world operating