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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3150758 No.3150758 [Reply] [Original]

re: the arab and now european uprisings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Revolution

Why do people want freedom and democracy? What part of us drives us to want to be free and take down those who repress us.

We were in feudal societies with kings and queens taking absolute rule. The printing press came about and made information very cheap to produce and distribute. From that came democracy. But why did we want it?

>> No.3150771

>>3150758

>HURR DURR DERP i don't understand human psychology.

>> No.3150770

More freedom is more freedom to procreate.

>> No.3150775

>>3150758

>and now european uprisings

what?

>> No.3150776

Those who have more rights usually also have more wealth. But distributing rights equally to everyone, we think wealth must follow.

A false conclusion, obviously.

>> No.3150774

>>3150771
i don't. could you elaborate?

>> No.3150793

I'm blowing it out my ass here...

Maybe because in the past people who were free were higher in class, thus had more money, wealth, power, influence, food, better chance at overall survival. If you were free to do what you wanted, you had to be pretty high up in the social foodchain. Otherwise you had to follow directions instead. Freedom=power=stability=safety?

>> No.3150808
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3150808

>>3150758
short explanation: it's because dumb people don't like being reminded that they're dumb.
,,,
long explanation: if a bunch of dumb people is ruled by a smart person, they are aware that they are mere subjects of someone smarter and wealthier, and they hate it because that reminds them of how dumb they are (that they can't figure out how to do what the ruler did to become ruler).
....
Now suppose they are allowed to live "free" under a set of laws so complex they can't fully understand them. They can even be stuck in the exact same economic and social/cultural situation--what is the difference? Only their perception of their own situation. They don't get mad at their circumstances because they don't know who to blame it on. If they cannot see that the situation is rigged against them, then they can go on thinking that they really are smart enough to be successful, but right now they're just "down on their luck" and that things will eventually get better.
----
the whole of human history is the same story played over and over again: it's a few smart people convincing a much larger group of dumb people to follow orders.

>> No.3150826

>>3150776
>>3150793
i think wealth does play a lot into this. people want fairness. its wired into us

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/09/030918092951.htm

>> No.3150840

Why do we want democracy? Well in the case of America because the king didn't treat us fairly and we we actually able to stand up to them and win a war against them, keep in mind this was not an easy decision, plenty of people fought against independence. Once it was determined that we were going to be independent and free, some very smart lawyers got together made a document that said exactly how we will be free. Then from there through some world wars and other conflicts we have made it a goal to prove to the world that our system is the right one. Why would they agree with us? Well if their current system isn't working, it's the only other option to try? Or do you think communism actually would work?

>> No.3150841
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3150841

>>3150774

Because we're not machines, human beings by nature are designed to be expressive. They will always be resistance to anything that hinders or threatens ones ability to express himself.

They're a million explanations but they always all point towards the word "express" or variants of it.

pic not related.

>> No.3150844

>>3150826

The arab revolution were exclusevily about wealth.

They were caused by high food prices and the result was, that thousands of tunesians landed on an italian island, because they wanted to work and live in europe.

The lybian revolution took/is taking place almost exclusively in the eastern part of the country, because this part is much much less developed and poorer than the west.

>> No.3150845

>>3150841
Except we're still just biological machines.

>> No.3150851

>>3150841

Don't be so delusional. Revolutions take place if the distributions of wealth reaches an unhealthy level.

And yes, the western world is heading towards this level.

>> No.3150872

>>3150851
oh but I wish it were... i wish there could be a glorious revolution in america, if for nothing more than a 1-shot wealth redistribution. better wages would be nice.

>> No.3150878

>>3150851
Which is ridiculous.

If I spend 1/3rd of my life studying in order to get a high income why the hell should people that leave school as soon as they can get the same income?

>> No.3150879

Freedom and democracy make people happy.
Also, dictatorship rarely works in the long run.

>> No.3150888
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3150888

>>3150878
No one is arguing that a skilled worker shouldn't make more than an unskilled worker.
Personally I think it's retarded that we let our CEO's make 200 times more than the average worker. Don't you?

>> No.3150895

>>3150878

It's not like everyone should have the exact same income, but why should there be thousands of super rich people in a scoiety, who often didn't contribute anything to their wealth, and at the same time millions who are not able to pay their bills?

>> No.3150899

>>3150758
It's arguable that in feudal times with absolute rule we were more free than we are now. After all technology can also be used to monitor and thus apply a more constant degree of control on us.

>> No.3150901

>>3150878
maybe because in societies where everyone is equal is a better one?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10607495
>opinion

then you have to ask what a 'better' society is. i think its one where everyone has the same opportunities as each other.

>>3150888
yes I do believe it is retarded. they get a lot of money 'managing' people - ie interupting them.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jason_fried_why_work_doesn_t_happen_at_work.html

>> No.3150909

>>3150844

This x100. Poor working conditions, high unemployment. Hungry people aren't afraid to revolt. Hungry people aren't afraid of jail.

Looking forward to the day this finally comes to America. Greece and Spain are only the beginning.

>> No.3150918

>>3150888
When does managers' salaries explode?
When did the internet take of?

Managers' salaries are directly correlated to how much they can efficiently manage. With the rise of big multinationals and information technology which enabled managers to influence an ever increasing part of the company managers became ever more influential.
Thats where the pay comes from.

Now, whether manager A has a significant effect over the short term compared to manager B isnt as obvious.

>> No.3150921

>>3150878
I'll play devil's advocate and say why are you entitled to more money just because your desired career path required more education?

Is exercising the choice to work in a scientific (presumably) field versus on an assembly line not in itself a reward?

>> No.3150924

>>3150918

Wrong. CEO's realized during the 80's that they could pretty much pay themselves whatever they wanted, and as long as the company kept paying out dividends, no-one seemed to care. THAT'S what happened.

>> No.3150930

>>3150895
But there are reasons why people are not able to pay their bills. The minimum income is calculated in such a way that one is able to live properly.

The reasons why they can't pay their bills is because they buy too much expensive things, are addicted to alcohol/drugs, or don't have a job.

Everyone can have a sufficient money left if they work enough and don't overspend.

>>3150901
I will have to disagree, people are not born equal.
Either you are born in a third world country or just are not that smart.
There are limits to how much education can fix regarding stupidity.

>3150888
I do agree that CEO's should not be paid that much. (Taking an average income of EUR 30,000 as an example) I think that, for a CEO, an income of 1 - 1.5 million should be enough.

Instead the management should all be pulled up to around the same income level.

>> No.3150944

>>3150924
True this. As productivity increases due to advances in technology it is often management that takes in the benefits while workers are still paid the same even if the company makes shitloads in profit.

>> No.3150948

>>3150930

There are reasons why people can't pay their bills and this instance you missed every fucking one of them.

Assuming that you don't live with your parents. Imagine that your rent/mortgage goes up 70% in 6 months. Still think you pay your bills now and be able to feed yourself? Thats basically what has happened in the last year in developing countries.

So fuck off.

>> No.3150958
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3150958

>>3150844
> The arab revolution[s] were [exclusively] about wealth.
Almost true. No revolution is about expression, intelligence, or even wealth. Wealth today is mostly measured in digital numbers - numbers which can be frozen or taken away easily by the government.

No, revolution comes from a group of unemployed bums who can't afford to eat. When you're starving to death, getting shot doesn't look like a bad alternative.

Even the Americans only had about 1/3 of their population for revolution. The rest? Couldn't care less if there was a King or not.

>> No.3150966

>>3150948

Mortgage doesn't go up, unless your dumb enough not to get a fixed rate mortgate.

Rent does go up, if you're dumb enough to stay in a apartment for a long term.

Fuck You ! ! !

>> No.3150975

>>3150948
I was talking about developed countries, obviously.

>> No.3150982

Democracy in all it's forms has only occurred in wealthy societies with a large educated middle class, before the industrial revolution it only occured in prosperous trading centers like Athens or the Netherlands, after the industrial revolution more egalitarian forms of democracy arose. This goes against the belief that people can be appeased, humans naturally take as much as they can get before they experience resistance, people will naturally want freedom and they will get it if they have the power to do so, usually economic power, tyranny occurs when there are no apparent means of expanding freedom.

>> No.3150985

>>3150958
This.

As long as your quality of life is acceptable society is stable.
If people are poor and unemployed, especially young men like in the Arabian countries up rises start to happen.

>> No.3150987

>>3150966

You're a retard. It was a relational example of what is occurring so you would understand the significance.

What the average Middle Eastern pays for food as a percentage of their income, the average American pays for rent. What happened in the last year was skyrocketing food prices.

Do us all a favor and grab a fucking newspaper in your free time and try reading for once.

>> No.3150992

>>3150958
No, people who are poor and desperate are easier to manipulate.

>> No.3150993

>>3150985
So Zimbabwe is a democracy and Norway is a totalitarian dictatorship.

>> No.3150999

>>3150982
This.

Started with facts, uses them to outline a causal link, this is science, we need more original thought in this forum instead of the usual hipster cliches.

>> No.3151009

I don't get this thread. Wasn't the main reason for the protests in the Middle East soaring food prices comprising a larger share of spending among the harafeesh?

>> No.3151017

>>3151009
So yeah, socioeconomic factors rather than some spontaneous urge for freedom or democracy.

>> No.3151018

Democracy: the belief that your life should be run according to the will of the unwashed mashes

http://libertariananarchy.com/2009/06/monarchy-vs-democracy-and-the-decline-of-civilization/

>> No.3151034

>>3150999
>Started with facts, uses them to outline a causal link, this is science, we need more original thought in this forum instead of the usual hipster cliches.

Nice trips, and seconded. If I wanted trite hipster analysis of current affairs I'd read this shit:

http://www.adbusters.org/

>> No.3151035

>>3150758

People find democracy just?

> Now European uprisings

I..I.. what? There's a bigger revolution going on in the US with the tea part movement than anything in Yorup.

>> No.3151040

>>3151018
libertarianism: belief, that everyone else will give a shit about your preferences

>> No.3151052

>>3151009
that was the spark that caused the revolution, but shit had been building up before that. especially with the release of those wikileaks cables giving hard evidence of corruption

>> No.3151057

>>3151035
Wait, I thought the tea partiers were still debating with each other about who should be the Republican presidential candidate. And their lackluster performance in 2010 elections hardly seems revolutionary, though I admittedly don't follow American politics that much. And yeah, I don't see any uprisings in yurop, even among the PIIGS.

>> No.3151068

>>3151040
Nice comeback...

>> No.3151075

>>3151052
IIRC that was in Tunisia, where the govt was oppressive, lots of poverty and inequality, etc.

>> No.3151228

>>3151018

Democracy: the belief you can choose the administrators of the state and depose them when they start fucking around (because they will, always, no exceptions, power corrupts and all that jazz).

>> No.3151261

freedom = I can do more shit that I want to do, better quality of life, living for myself, and not for someone elses merrit as a "peasant" or "slave"

>> No.3151270

>>3150775

This thread is on /b/ too

massive protests started
in France:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KXBe4G1kt0
in Greece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxgHy-NUVbU\
in Spain:
http://vimeo.com/24395865 (particularly disturbing police brutality)
in England:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HRWO_70eQg
in Germany:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hWGdrzL3zU
in the Czech Republic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMpIzfDIJL0
in Italy, Sweden, Cyprus and mby some other countries I don't know about

>> No.3152315

>>3151270


and most of the mainstream media in America has ignored this story.

Looks like Alex Jones and his we'll get the last laugh.

>> No.3152331

>>3150888
it's fucking retarded that the CEO of an international sandwich company can't step behind the line and make a fucking sandwich.

>> No.3152350

>>3150758
Why do people want freedom and democracy? Well, here is an example:

You are no longer allowed to look at porn or play videogames. Not only that, if you look at porn or play videogames, you will be thrown into "jail" (actually a forced labor camp). Your family will be fined and closely monitored to ensure that they do not have the same troublesome tendencies as you do.

Why?

Because I said so. I have the weapons, and the army, so I make the rules.

At this point, enough people get sick and tired of not being allowed to do things that they do not see as wrong in any way, and they rebel and revolt. They kill the people who were oppressing them, and the whole cycle begins anew.

>> No.3152361

>humans naturally seek out leadership and a certain sense of organization
>this helped us hunt more efficiently and cooperation ensured a larger number of people survived
>people naturally feel the need to challenge authority and replace leadership
>this helped weed out bad leaders, stagnation and is an outlet for our naturally competitive nature
>competition is there for individual success and procreation
>helps ensure that the individual gets enough food and mates
>being the leader, someone in a coveted and respected position in social hierarchy, is attractive to mates
>more mates = good

So it's a combination of cooperation and competition, both being evolutionary behaviors.

>> No.3152596

Nigger!!!

>> No.3154007

>>3150808
smart people my ass

just a bunch of immoral kikes

>> No.3154435

Imagine if democracy comes to North Korea... that would be interesting.

considering they have very little idea of what 'freedom' is

>> No.3154453

Europe uprising?
Over what?

>> No.3154513

>>3154453
Over the common people taking the blame and "austerity" for the financial crimes of their governments

>> No.3154517

Canada here, nothing to report.

>> No.3154530

>>3150808
wow. what an elitist.

>> No.3154531

>>3154513
I think you Europeans are just spoiled

>> No.3154546

>>3154531
I'm American, and can easily see the corruption from over here.

Not that things are any different in my country.