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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3098727 No.3098727 [Reply] [Original]

Prove that consciousness is purely natural and that dualism is not plausible.

>> No.3098731

Proof is for mathematics you faggot.

>> No.3098746

Everything we know about the brain points towards a natural explanation. Absolutely fucking nothing points towards dualism.

>> No.3098768

>>3098746

http://www.ghostsofamerica.com/

http://www.ghostvideos.ws/

http://www.ghostresearch.org/ghostpics/

>> No.3098763
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3098763

I can't. I can only point out religion has no valuable input. Talk to shamans, sorcerers and witches for the ones actively experienced in whats in the other planes of existence. They're contrary to common belief to have only their personal experience to count for their knowledge. Unlike faith.

Just do yourself a favor. Smoke some DMT, do some ibogain and keep your mouth shut about it. Nobody in the world cares about your personal insights troll baiting us with this bullshit.

Yes I ain't mad.

>> No.3098776
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3098776

>>3098768

>> No.3098782
File: 62 KB, 300x300, trisomy21b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3098782

>>3098768

>ghosts

>> No.3098786

>>3098782

Ok, prove any of those sites wrong. I'll bet you can't do it.

>> No.3098787
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3098787

>>3098768

>> No.3098792

>>3098763
Because DMT is something that makes you pass over to another plane and not hallucinate!

>> No.3098793

because magic doesnt exist.
QED

>> No.3098797
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3098797

>>3098768
Man, those ghost photos are fucking pathetic.

>> No.3098798

http://www.ghostpictures.cc/

>> No.3098807

>>3098786

How can i "prove" anything? What you're asking is whether i consider the evidence presented as enough to justify the existence of disembodied spirits.

No, for the same reason that any photo or video can be forged. Extraordinarily claims require extraordinary evidence.

>> No.3098808
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3098808

>>3098792
Poor you.

>> No.3098809

But getting back to the original argument, no one has conclusively proven dualism, but then nobody has disproven it either.

>> No.3098810

>>3098786
The bible says so, faggot.

>> No.3098816

>>3098808
Poor me for not being a hallucinofag?

>> No.3098818

>>3098809

Unfalsifiable hypothesis. It's equivalent to saying "you cant disprove unicorns"

>> No.3098824
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3098824

>>3098818

>> No.3098827

>>3098809
It's not just that it hasn't been conclusively proven yet. There's simply nothing to support the dualism hypothesis *at all*.

>> No.3098834
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3098834

>>3098824

Nice goat.

>> No.3098861

http://www.near-death.com/

http://www.nderf.org/

http://iands.org/home.html

>> No.3098886

>>3098827

I'd say there's more evidence for ghosts than there is for God.

>> No.3098887
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3098887

>>3098861

>Near
>Death

>> No.3098889

Dualism may be correct, to some degree.

But for explaining anything about the brain or our behavior, it is superfluous. The brain is physical. There is nothing it does that isn't purely materialistic, deterministic and grounded in the framework of what we already understand about biology, chemistry and physics. So not implausible, just irrelevant, superfluous, pure razor-bait.


As for explaining why I am now looking out of my eyes, and not someone elses, or no eyes at all, or not existing at all; that is an open question. I have never heard a decent way to phrase this question, never mind a decent answer to it.

>> No.3098898

>>3098887

I don't get the reaction image.

>> No.3098905
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3098905

>>3098898

What?

>> No.3098910

>>3098886
Well, there certainly aren't as many god photo sites.

>> No.3098917

>>3098898

He's mocking you

>> No.3098927

>>3098889
Part of what you say is true, except that 1) NONE of physics is actually deterministic. It's just easy to approximate macro-scale things as if they were. 2) We can't prove that what the brain does is purely limited to the known laws of physics. If we're leaving open the possibility that duality may be involved in our conscious experience, it would seem necessary to allow that that experience would spill over into what the brain does.

>> No.3098937

>>3098917

If he is, he's certainly not doing a good job of it.

>> No.3098945

>>3098910

This would indicate one of two things.

*Either there isn't a god
*He's not detectable the way ordinary spirits are

>> No.3098954

Serotonin and Dopamine

/thread

>> No.3098956

>>3098927
>We can't prove that what the brain does is purely limited to the known laws of physics.
What's already established, though, is that all the things we *do* know about the functionality of the brain conform with our understanding of physics. Of course this doesn't "disprove" dualism in any way, but it makes it the probabilistically less justified assumption.

>> No.3098958

>>3098954

Dopamine caused those ghost videos? Huh?

>> No.3098966

>>3098945
Or he's just a little camera shy.

>> No.3098971

>>3098956
Yes, but it would go without saying that whatever "divine spark" there is that makes people conscious, rather than just meat robots, is a subtle thing. That we're MOSTLY just meat robots, with a little something that makes us actually "alive" in a metaphysical sense. That's why they call it a "spark". So we wouldn't expect for it to be easy to detect in the brain.

>> No.3098972

>>3098966

Maybe God can't show himself because his power is so great that you'd end up like in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Hell, even in the Bible he tells Moses that he can't show himself directly for that reason.

>> No.3098977

>>3098954
You might as well say clouds and sunshine.

>> No.3098978
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3098978

>mfw ghost thread on /sci

>> No.3098989

>>3098927

From what we understand, things do resolve themselves into deterministic or nondeterministic forms, classical and quantum. The brain is, as far as we can tell, totally deterministic.

The point being, everything we know about the brain shows that it is a purely physical system, and there is no special reason to suppose that the gaps that remain are not also purely physical.

Now, why we have a perspective out of this brain, that is the hard question. But no aspect of how the brain functions, or of human behavior, is affected by this perspective in any way.

>> No.3098995

>>3098971

I'd say some (mostly lower animals) are purely meat robots, but we have yet to create even the simplest life in the laboratory, let alone complex organisms.

>> No.3099006

>>3098989
>things do resolve themselves into deterministic or nondeterministic forms
No, we just simplify things into deterministic forms. We don't talk about nondeterminism in chemistry for example, because it's a step removed, and in large systems you can't practically detect the non-determinism. But all of chemistry is based on quantum physics which is non-deterministic.

I agree that studying the brain doesn't lead to questions of things beyond our understanding of physics. But studying the mind does. And if the question is there for the mind, it's going to have to apply to the brain as well in some way.

>> No.3099014

>>3099006

What things does the mind do that do not seem ultimately explicable to you without reference to the brain?

Excluding the subjective, the experiential, the perspective that we have. I mean things about our behavior.

>> No.3099019

First part isn't provable, what IS provable is that the brain (the part that probably contains consciousness) is directly affected by worldly situations and chemicals and is not a separate entity from the body, thus, dualism isn't possible unless there is a completely separate unknowable force controlling your thoughts. This isn't provable, and is worthless to determine with current technology.

In other words, if you seriously believe in dualism, you're taking a huge leap of faith and shouldn't be taken seriously.

>> No.3099021

>>3099014

I have noticed that drugs and brain damage do not appear to affect one's personality. Some things yes, but that's seemingly always the same.

>> No.3099023

>>3099014
Nothing about behavior. If all we had to explain was behavior, we'd probably never guess there was a conscious mind.

>> No.3099034

>>3099021

Really? I have noticed just the opposite.

I suppose the test would be; locate the physical location in the brain of a particular memory or skill. Destroy or disable it. If the person can still remember it, then it is obviously stored off-site somewhere and somehow. This is just the best experiment I can construct right now, the nature of the mind as a emergent property of the networks of the brain could confound these efforts.

>> No.3099047

>>3099023

What else is there then?

The running commentary on the events you experience? The production of futures as you try to predict what will happen? The accessing of memories?

I'm trying to think of things the mind does that the brain couldn't do, but I'm drawing a blank.

>> No.3099048

>>3099034

Memory is certainly part of the physical brain; that's a given.