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/sci/ - Science & Math

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3079103 No.3079103 [Reply] [Original]

How do you think the world would react if free will was proven to be a false idea?

That everything that has happened, or will happen was already predetermined by a higher power.

>> No.3079105

i think they would react predictably

>> No.3079127

>>3079103

Not much would change.

>> No.3079130
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3079130

There's already tons of evidence to support the idea that free will does not exist (determinism, quantifiable changes in the brain preceding conscious decision, etc.). In fact, I think it's easier to accept the idea that free will does not exist then if it does.

However, if you are specifically asking if free will was predetermined by a HIGHER POWER, then we'd probably be too busy shitting our pants over the almighty one(s) then giving a shit about some philosophic notion which has already had validity for a long, long time.

>> No.3079135

the thought of fate scares me guys

>> No.3079186

>>3079130

Determinism is like stating a law in a debate. Well huur derp it is illegal has no validity in the question.

>> No.3079192

>>3079186
How so?

>> No.3079196

Batman would shoot Darkseid with a magic bullet, and everyone would forget it next week.

>> No.3079211

>>3079192

It has nothing to do with free will. The idea that I do not have free will because some black guy raped a woman in 1975 is hilarious and pointless.

>> No.3079217

>>3079103
i dont believe in free will. we humans are always influenced by other humans, like your parents who raised you. most of the time this influence happens unconscious, and therefore we regard it as free will, but it still isnt.

>> No.3079227

dude, you guys, what if, you guys listen, what if our thoughts aren't our own, and their like, the outlying thoughts of god

>> No.3079241

>>3079217
>we humans are always influenced by other humans

This isn't a great -- nor even good -- rationale for thinking free will doesn't exist.

>> No.3079242

Feedback motherfucker.

Being aware that our thoughts are predetermined is enough to alter our predetermined thoughts.

>> No.3079249

>>3079242
brain is melting, please hold

>> No.3079250

Free will doesn't exist and there is no higher power

>> No.3079258

>>3079250
that's not what this thread is debating fucktard

have you ever heard of the word "hypothetical"?

>> No.3079262

>>3079103
It wouldn't

>> No.3079266

Free will doesn't exist. You're just atoms clunking together in several different ways. To say there is free will is to imply that you can override all these processes. But to do that you have to be external to the system. Nothing is objective.

>> No.3079285

You've got theists who say free will exists and it's evidence for God; theists who say free will doesn't exist and it's still evidence for God; atheists who say free will exists and therefore God does not; and atheists who say free will does not exist and therefore God doesn't exist.

This is why the entire concept of free will is pointless and meaningless. Define your terms clearly because you can be sure free will does not mean to what what it does to anyone else.

>> No.3079330

People would behave exactly as they should.

>> No.3079431

Everyone would react in a predetermined way as they became aware that their thoughts are predetermined, which would, to a mere casual observer, alter their predetermined thoughts in a predetermined way that was determined way back at the beginning of our deterministic universe.

In other words, little would change in that sense.

I think the reactions would be mixtures of disbelief, acceptance, false understanding, and outright denial. Kind of like when anything is discovered.

For example:

Discovery: The mutilated chess board problem is impossible.
>Prat 1’s reaction: No LOL nuthen is impossiball! xD
>Prat 2’s reaction: Yeah but it don’t matta coz no one cars bout that math stuff
>Intelligent person’s reaction: How does that work. [Looks at how it works and comprehends it] Good job, discover!
>Prat 3’s reaction: GOD WILL STRIKE YOU DOWN, HEATHJEN!!!

>> No.3079436

>>3079431
Oops. Forgot to discard my tripcode and name (it was only intended for that one thread before). Sorry, /sci/.

>> No.3079484

Everything would go according to keikaku.

>> No.3079969

>>3079130
what if it's determined by a lower power?

>> No.3079971

Free will and the idea that a higher power has predetermined everything are not diametrically opposed.

>> No.3079986

>>3079130
>determinism
is a human-constructed myth

>quantifiable changes in the brain preceding conscious decision, etc
Is consistent with the very old idea that the subconscious plays an important part in making decisions. It doesn't speak to free will at all.

>> No.3080003

>>3079971
not predetermined; just prescient

>> No.3080132

It has been proven... kinda...

Our 3 dimensional (4 with time) is all part of a 5th dimensional probability space which contains all the 4 dimensional Universes where anything and everything can and will happen. We effectively have no choice in the 4 dimensional Universe one we live in.

>> No.3080143

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

I think people have to be pretty dense to not realize that we live in a deterministic world.

>> No.3080158

>>3079971
yes they are, unless by "predetermined" you mean "guided", which is different

also, itt: people ignore ontological idealism and argue ontological physicalism

>> No.3080170
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3080170

>>3079103
IF we knew it'd be true, but we don't know, so it's not true.

>> No.3080209

No free will.

Not even talking about quantum randomness (wich isn't real btw, hidden variables all the way), but simply because you're only the product of external events that are produced by products of external events and so on and so on and so on.
You can only react using datas resulting from events you encountered since your birth.
You have no free will, at all.

>> No.3080220

Basically, a human being is not an individual. It is a computer programmed by its surrounding environement.
We're programs.

>> No.3080228

Free will implies that your mind is clean of any external influences. Wich isn't possible since our mind is a construct that uses said things as bricks and mortar.

>> No.3080275

>>3080228
>>3080220
>>3080209
Just because you guys have no idea what is going on, doesn't mean thats applicable to the universe you're in.

>> No.3080282

>>3080275
>>3080275
You're obviously wrong.
Read again please.

>> No.3080310
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3080310

>>3080282
Done.
>Still standing by my statement, and I shall double down on it.

>> No.3080328
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3080328

>>3080310

Tell us oh wise one. Did God do it?

>> No.3080350

>>3080220
Quick! Let’s BSoD the Universe!!

>> No.3080388
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3080388

>How do you think the world would react if everything was already pre-determined by a higher power?

We would all be trying to find said higher power, and then fucking them up for trying to dictate our lives.

>> No.3080404

>>3079103
You can't prove a negative. Proving free will doesn't exist has the same problem as proving a teapot orbiting somewhere between Mars and Earth doesn't exist, or god doesn't exist.

There's nothing that suggests free will does exist, and that's enough to conclude it doesn't for logical people, but that's as far as we can go.

>> No.3080406

Free will implies that there is a 'soul/spirit/mind' manipulating the atoms and particles in your brain so your physical body behaves according to the 'will of the soul' rather than to fully deterministic physical laws. And no, QM does not negate determinism.

This is empirically testable, and we observe no such phenomena. Free will IS an illusion.

>> No.3080419

>>3079103

Wtf OP.

Is that House's eyes blended onto a cats head?

>> No.3080422

>>3080404
Is a dumbass. You can prove a negative (as in, prove something impossible). Read: http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/trisect.HTM

>> No.3080424
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3080424

They would react the same way telling them God doesn't exist.

They would just deny it and continue to believe what they believe.

/thread

>> No.3080437
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3080437

>>3080328
Make me wrong? No, you did it

>which you failed at, successfully, I might add.

>> No.3080441

>>3080406
That's like standing on a bridge and saying "there is no river. Look, see, if i reduce it down to it's component particles, you can plainly see that it is just a series of water particles and rock. No River here."

>> No.3080443

>>3080404
>You can't prove a negative

Sure you can.

>the same problem as proving a teapot orbiting somewhere between Mars and Earth doesn't exist

Collect and enumerate all the items orbiting between Mars and Earth. Find no teapot. Nonexistence of teapot proven.

tada

>> No.3080468
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3080468

>>3080443
I think he meant crack pots
and orbiting he meant on /sci/

>> No.3080476

>>3080443
The teapot may be invisible.

>> No.3080479

why does it matter ?

>> No.3080484

>>3080443
>Collect and enumerate all the items orbiting between Mars and Earth. Find no teapot. Nonexistence of teapot proven.

Way to miss the point. You're rejecting the specifics and not the principle itself. Stop pulling shit like this every time you're presented with a thought experiment, people, it's just retarded.

>> No.3080489

>>3080479
Seeing Reality as it is may kind of help us to navigate in it more succesfully. It does matter.

>> No.3080494

>>3080441

That's what compatibilism is for:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

I really hate people who are too dumb to realize that the brain is another organ just like the stomach or the heart. They completely understand that the stomach and the heart are determinisitic in nature but utterly fail at realizing that the brain also falls under the same laws that the hear and the stomach fall under.

>> No.3080496

>>3080484
Thought experiment withut any ground in the real world is complete waste of time, worthless wankery.

>> No.3080504

If you can prove free will does not exist but can't find what will be, most everything would stay the same.

>> No.3080511

>>3080441
How does that invalidate determinism? Are you implying that the combination of all the particles that makes up your brain would give rise to a 'soul/mind/spirit' and that defies the laws of physics?

>> No.3080526

>>3079103
3/10 (-1 for lack of effort)

>> No.3080530

>>3080228
>Free will implies that your mind is clean of any external influences.
No it doesn't

>>3080209
>You can only react using datas resulting from events you encountered since your birth.
That's only true for the lowest types of people.

>> No.3080537

>>3080530
Yes it does.

Your ego is too big. Wich is a same because you're wrong.
Way to look like a douche.

>> No.3080545

>>3080511
I think you're confusing the "determinism" physicists talk about with the "determinism" philosophers talk about.

To a philosopher determinism is the opposite of free will.

To a scientist determinism is the ability to predict 100% the outcome of a scenario. This type of determinism isn't dichotomous with free will. Just because you can't predict the outcome of some scenario doesn't mean humans have the ability to will outcomes into existence.

>> No.3080551

>>3080530

>That's only true for the lowest types of people.

You sound like a pretentious n00b. Learn to science fool.

>> No.3080558

>>3080530
>tripfag
>philosopher

Hahaha

>> No.3080569

>>3080545

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

>> No.3080623

just a thought

if world would be copied and simulated exactly as it is ( or something on a smaller scale )

Would it run exactly as real version or not

>> No.3080624

>>3080545
No, I wasn't being confused. Don't know why you're even bringing that up.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on how does that river analogy >>3080441 gave relates to an argument for free will.

>> No.3080630

>>3080623
Yes

>> No.3080639

Free will is real. Just because it's magical and beyond reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

>> No.3080674

>>3080639
God is real. Just because He's magical and beyond reason doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

>> No.3080681

>>3080674
Yeah, I guess you wanted to make fun of me with this, but I'm an agnostic, so joke's on you.

>> No.3080689

LOL, is that sum House cat?

>> No.3080690

>>3080623

and if it runs same ( which kind of makes sense ) then free will doesnt exist

then again we dont know for certain if universe has perfect order or not, so free will might exist after all

im perfectly fine with an illusion of free will though

>> No.3080691

>>3080681

You're still just as stupid.

>> No.3080692

>>3080681
>I'm an agnostic
>joke's on you

It sure is.

>> No.3080718

>>3080681
Indeed. Often humor is a sign of genius.

>> No.3080823

>>3080681
>but I'm an agnostic
We all are, idiot.
Also
>magical and beyond reason
>lol
Speak for yourself