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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

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3045890 No.3045890 [Reply] [Original]

humans all deserve to die including me and you. when are we going to realize that we're just a mere species who got where we are because of a handful of men.

>> No.3045903
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3045903

duly noted.

>> No.3045913

>>3045890
>deserve to die

Wow, grow up. Notions such as "deserve" are woefully barbaric and primative. They are pathetic justifications for our own irrational emotional reactions to a matter.

>> No.3045939

Matter of fact, all humans will die.

>> No.3045964

>>3045913

In before debates about whether criminals deserve punishment, whether abortians are morally acceptable, whether eye for an eye mentality is true justice, and any and all debate topics of which one side has only one argument going for them and that is self-gratification.

>> No.3045982

>>3045964
>whether criminals deserve punishment

We can punish criminals for reasons other than the notion that they deserve it. Behavior correction, removal from society, protection of the populace, etc.

>> No.3045984

op here sorry guys i'm just mad at life you can let this thread die

>> No.3046027

But we do all die. Are you stupid?

>> No.3046037

>>3045982

punishment through incarceration/capital punishment has shown neither specific nor general deterrence (obviously capital punishment can only have general deterrence). In fact, imprisonment has been shown to further entrench people in crime, that's why prisons are often referred to as the breeding grounds for more competent criminals.

>> No.3046063

>>3045982

also, prisons give the illusion of safety, by which i mean the majority of offenders are never caught. Also, lower-class crime is nowhere as destructive as corporate/state crimes, which are either undetected or are legalized criminality.

>> No.3046069
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3046069

extremist luddites gonna extremely ludd

>> No.3046082

>>3046063
>>3046037
This would seem to imply a different sort of justice or punishment system. Do you have an alternative?

>> No.3046093

>>3046082
*would imply a different system is necessary

>> No.3046111

>>3046037
imprisonment, contrary to popular belief, is not meant as a deterrent (and if it were, it would be a poor one at that) it is meant to remove the criminal element from society at large. The only problem is you cannot indefinitely imprison the entire criminal population for lack of space.

>> No.3046116

>>3046082

doing nothing would be better than what we currently do. The majority of people in jail aren't rapists (i include pedophiles in that) or murderers or violent in any way, they are in jail on simple possession of some drug and nothing more. Those that are in jail for theft, robbery and burglary should be given an education.

>> No.3046122

>>3045890
>>3045982
>>3045913
Sure is psychopathic nihilism here

>> No.3046131

>>3046116
>Those that are in jail for theft, robbery and burglary should be given an education
But those who commit crimes are often not interested in educating themselves the first place

>> No.3046127

>>3046116
>The majority of people in jail aren't rapists (i include pedophiles in that) or murderers or violent in any way, they are in jail on simple possession of some drug and nothing more. Those that are in jail for theft, robbery and burglary should be given an education.

That's a far cry from doing nothing. But it is a good idea.

Doing nothing IMO is the worst thing to do because it means that those that should be kept away from the populace aren't.

>> No.3046141

>>3046111

First, shut the fuck up. Second, conservative criminology revolves around the belief that stiff penalties and capital punishment deters crime. There is no way you can deny that and still be credible. That isn't popular belief. That is conservative criminology's main policy position (zero tolerance.) Also, there have been more justifications for prison besides deterrence. Another conservative justification is retribution (eye for an eye.)

>> No.3046149

>>3046116
>doing nothing would be better than what we currently do.
you must be living in some utopian community. once you've been robbed, raped, beaten up, or have a loved one experience something similar, you would think differently.

>> No.3046171
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3046171

>>3046141
Quit ragging you fucking bitch and have a civilized debate with me.

>> No.3046174

I think sending minor criminals (theft/drug offenses) into a work program would be sufficient, while having their earned wages transferred into an appropriate channel (paying for their own drug rehab for instance, or reparations to the party they stole from.)

Most sorts of violent crimes (murder, rape, child molestation) should receive the death penalty. I can't see how anyone except the criminal benefits from allowing these people to live. It amazes me that people think those who refuse to respect the rights of others, are somehow still deserving of respect on their own. To apply the death penalty does the most to eliminate the problem of prison overcrowding and repeat offenses. And no I don't advocate capital punishment in the case of ALL violent offenses (manslaughter, some rape cases where consent was debatable) but there are many instances where a bare and simple disregard for the rights of others is very evident.

I'm sure there's a coherent stance against this application of the death penalty out there somewhere, so if someone wants to enlighten me I'd like to hear it.

>> No.3046181

>>3046127

you can't imprison your way out of a problem. There will always be rapists, and most of them will never be caught because either they kill their witnesses or the victim doesn't report the incident for a number of reasons (a family member was the rapist, retribution, fear that the criminal justice system will do nothing etc). Imprisoning people is the stupidest way to try and protect a society. Instead, more money should be going to schools. Universal health care ought to be provided, and in this system parents ought to be required to bring their children to doctors every couple of months for a check up. Anything wrong with kid, then the parents should either have their kids taken away or be severely fined and undergo some kind of parenting courses.

>> No.3046201

>>3046181
overcrowding of rapists, murderers, and other hardcore criminals in jails. wat do?

>> No.3046207

>>3046131

sauce

>> No.3046214
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3046214

>>3046181
>you can't imprison your way out of a problem.
If the problem is caused by a person, you can.

>most of them [rapists] will never be caught
That's no reason to do nothing.

>Anything wrong with kid, then the parents should either have their kids taken away or be severely fined and undergo some kind of parenting courses.

What? It should be a crime to have a sick kid?
>Imprisoning people is the stupidest way to try and protect a society.
Seems to be the simplest.

>> No.3046221

>>3046201

murderers and rapists are not the reason for overcrowding. Imprisoning people for drug offenses is. Murderers and rapists should be studied extensively to prevent these people from being created in our society again. No one is born a rapist or a murderer.

>> No.3046239

>>3046214

"If the problem is caused by a person, you can."

Except there's always going to be new offenders. I'm talking about solving a problem by preventing it from even happening. You, on the other hand, are talking about doing something after the fact, which does nothing to try and understand the problem.

>> No.3046252

>>3046214

"What? It should be a crime to have a sick kid? "

do you seriously believe that that is what i meant? I'm referring to a kid being seriously ill despite the illness being easily preventable, signs of extreme abuse and neglect etc.

>> No.3046255

>>3046221
>No one is born a rapist or a murderer.
what about ted bundy?

>> No.3046260

>>3046239
I guess so, but unless we monitor every person in the country to watch for warning signs of crime, we can't truly prevent it.

>> No.3046271

>>3046252
Not really, but you did make it rather hard to understand.

You seem to want much more monitoring in the country. Do you think that this will lead to a better country?

>> No.3046278

>>3046255

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_bundy

read that.

>> No.3046281

ITT: babbys first philosophy

>> No.3046291
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3046291

>>3046281
More like criminal and political theory.

>> No.3046293

>>3046271

how would having universal health care and more funding for education rather than more for prisons and defense spending not lead to a better country?

>> No.3046297

>>3046293
No, no, I wasn't questioning those. I was wondering if more monitoring was the best thing to do.

>> No.3046300

>Autistic misanthrope detected

>> No.3046309

>>3046214

>most of them [rapists] will never be caught
"That's no reason to do nothing."

That's not my point. Though I can understand the misunderstanding. My point is that even when you imprison these people you're not decreasing the absolute amount of incidents of rape that go on in society. First off, crime also happens in prisons. Male rape in prison isn't some myth. There is probably a higher amount of rape per in-mate in prison than in society at-large. That is a result of the nature of prison.

>> No.3046322

>>3046297

monitoring in an encouraging way, not in a stigmatizing way, but more important is education. Parenting courses for parents has shown to significantly decrease later offending in their children.

>> No.3046326

>>3046322
>Parenting courses for parents has shown to significantly decrease later offending in their children.

Now that is intriguing. I wonder how we can promote that. Perhaps tax subsides to parents who go through these courses.

>> No.3046357

>>3046293

Not the guy you were arguing with, but...

We already invest a shit ton of money on education and get no results. Funding for it has skyrocketed in the last 30 years with barely any change in actual results. Education needs a complete reform from the ground-up, NOT more money.

And Universal Healthcare isn't nearly as awesome and perfect as some people like to claim. The taxes and debts that pay for it are much higher than what is commonly believed, and although Universal it doesn't have that great quality.

Before the 50's and 60's, Healthcare in the US used to be much more "Universal" and cheaper than UHC even though it was private, due to one simple thing: Groups and families of Lower-Middle Class people used to form Charities and Funds of sorts, in which they deposited money into savings accounts and use it when they got sick: Privately-Funded Universal Healthcare.
After the 50's and 60's though, Government started meddling with Healthcare - A LOT -, the prices of Healthcare skyrocketed and Worker's-Savings accounts were discouraged and dismantled with time.

The point i'm trying to make is, that more Government planning isn't really the answer to the Healthcare problem, and that there are other ways to have the "Universal Healthcare" people want.

>> No.3046372

>>3046149

you think in the short term and emotionally. Imprisoning people has never solved crime. That is why crime still exists, because it doesn't deter criminals. You'll probably say next, "well, it's better to have them in jail." First, most violent offenders know their victims. So they are not likely to offend again simply because they are ostracized from their families and friends. In fact, after pedophiles are released their next offense is on average 36 years after being released. It's obvious that something better can be done besides simply killing them. The best one I can think of is enslavement for the rest of their lives. The money that they make should go to those that they've harmed. If the person or family that was harmed doesn't like this then they should either be forced to personally murder the pedophile or they should be given the opportunity to have the money given to some program that tries to prevent rape or to some other worthwhile social program, education being the most important one.

>> No.3046388

>>3046357

First, before the 50s and 60s there used to be more unions than there is now. Workers actually made more in real-wages from the 50s to the 70s than they do now. Charities have never been shown to significantly provide enough for anything. That is the typical religious-conservative response when they're accused of not applying their religious principles or actively opposing progressive policies that benefit the poor and needy

>> No.3046407

>>3046357

and money does play an important part in education. If you only have 1 teacher for every 30 students then it doesnt matter how dedicated and excellent the teacher is. He/she will not have the time to expend a great deal of effort on each student. Instead, teachers will focus most of their attention on those students that need the least amount of help since teachers like to invest time in those students that will bring the average grade up. They usually give up on those they deem as incorrigible. Culture does play a part as well, but often a culture is developed based on how much funding an institution is getting.

>> No.3046421

>>3046357

"Funding for it has skyrocketed in the last 30 years with barely any change in actual results. Education needs a complete reform from the ground-up, NOT more money"

That's because our population keeps increasing as we absorb more and more immigrants. And immigrants are even costlier to teach than the average english speaking student. This doesnt mean that money is ineffective. It just means that money is going to the wrong things, such as just teaching kids how to pass a standardized test rather than really giving them tools to understand the world.

>> No.3046440

>>3046357

"although Universal it doesn't have that great quality."

Not according to citizens in Canada and France, which have more than 60% of the population reporting being very happy with their insurance.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/health-care-abroad-france/

>> No.3046446

>>3046440
If I'm not mistaken, Canada has a much different insurance system than America. In America, the government is just one of many insurance providers, which all mangle together into a terrible mish mash of payment schemes.

>> No.3046465

>>3046446

Ok, I wasn't saying America has a universal health care system. In the post he/she was referring to universal health care in the abstract and not with regard to one particular system. I countered his/her claim with evidence to that contradicted his/her position.

>> No.3046486

>>3046465
I wasn't stating an opinion, just providing information.

I believe Canada has a two payer system, where the government provides insurance for basic medical care, anything beyond that and the people need to pay for it or have a separate insurer, but they can only have one such insurance.

>> No.3046509

>>3046027

i know some people that haven't died are you an idiot?

>> No.3046516

Why is anyone responding to this thread?

OP is obviously a teenager going through another phase

unless......

the people who posted in this thread are also teenagers

>> No.3046519

>>3046516
We've found something WAY more interesting to talk about.

>> No.3046523

>>3046519

every board on 4chan.org encapsulated.

>> No.3046528

>>3046516

your deduction is almost as stupid as your mom LOL

>> No.3046545

>>3046082

shooting them in the head seems to be an optimal solution to me.

>> No.3046558

>>3046545

Except it never solves the underlying structures that cause crime. You also fail to account for how much is spent in court cases appealing death sentences. Second, there are many people that have been exonerated that have been on death row. Third, many people that haven been sentenced to death have been shown to be innocent of the crimes they were convicted for. Fourth, science will never prevent mistakes and deliberate corruption from happening. Science is not perfect.

>> No.3046566

>>3046558
fifth, he was just trolling.

>> No.3046590

>>3046566

you can troll and believe your own shit at the same time, believe it or not.