/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.2969270]

Wanted: Fewer science nerds, more 'culturally competent' doctors

The test that all medical school applicants take could place greater emphasis on behavioral and social sciences, adding a new component and lengthening the test to seven hours, if proposed changes are accepted.

Members of the committee that proposed the changes to the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) say that this could help better identify applicants who have a greater understanding of behavioral and social factors that contribute to health problems.

“We want to broaden the knowledge base that students have about those factors that influence health,” said committee chair Dr. Steven Gabbe, who is also CEO of the Ohio State University Medical Center. “Yes, you must have solid base in science, but you have to understand the challenges. You have to be culturally competent to understand socio-economic challenges in different groups face dealing with health problems.”The more a physician realizes social factors , the more it could help him or her understand health consequences, medical school officials said.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/28/wanted-fewer-science-nerds-more-culturally-competent-doctor
s/

>Prepare your anus Med students, you're not qualified if you're not good at "cultural studies"

[Anonymous No.2969279]

>This also pertains to diversity.

>“It speaks to an awareness of cultures outside of the one they grew up in,” he said. “We’re going to be more sensitive to those issues.”

>Robert Schaeffer, public education director of the National Center for Fair & Open Testing and frequent critic of standardized exams, said the proposals are headed in the right direction.

>“Medical schools’ leadership, as reflected by AAMC, is indeed trying to change the types of students who are recruited for medical schools to emphasize more diversity of all sorts,” he said. “There is a growing perception because of the emphasis of MCAT in medical school admissions, you’re getting science nerds - kids who are strong at mastering scientific facts, but are not so strong at dealing with patients, real human beings with real human problems, which have to be dealt with a broader array of disposition.”

So instead of being medically and scientifically knowledgeable, they want people who are good at diversity? What kind of stupid shit is this.

Cultural marxism goes too far when it starts fucking with science.

[Anonymous No.2969302]

>too many completely qualified people want to be doctors, challenging the artificial scarcity created by rejecting the majority of willing and competent applicants
>create arbitrary bullshit standards to cull the pool of "qualified" med school applicants to help avoid the possibility of possibly being paid less sometime in the future

[Anonymous No.2969308]

>too many doctors
>continue admitting hundreds of med students into MD programs instead of limiting admissions
>complain about having too many doctors
Problem, logic?

[Anonymous No.2969307]

>>2969302
This, pretty much exactly. College teachers and professors hold back on their abilities to teach so that they don't have to fight for their jobs in the future

[Anonymous No.2969317]

>Politician goes to doctor.
>Doctor says something that he doesn't understand.
>"This fucker is a nerd! he thinks he's smarter than me! I'll show them, I'll make sure only fellow retards can become doctors"

[Anonymous No.2969313]

So instead of competent doctors, they want some kind of cultural experts undergoing medical procedures? Is this some kind of bizarro article?

[Anonymous No.2969322]

>>2969279
Is there any time when cultural marxism has helped us as a society? It only fucks things up.

>>2969302
Now you're thinking.

[Anonymous No.2969344]

>>2969308
Nobody ever complained about too many doctors. US has fewer doctors per dollar spent on health care than any other western nation.

[Anonymous No.2969354]

>>2969308
>>It's a problem for there to be too many doctors

This isn't "There's too many doctors". This is, "I'm an old, experienced doctor and putting forth limits on the younger generation so that the more intelligent don't gun for my job."

This isn't exactly the first time that baby boomers have ruined something for today's men and women.

[Anonymous No.2969368]

Is anyone really surprised anymore?

http://news.uk4net.com/2011/04/11/cameron-in-race-row-with-oxford-university/

You have CONSERVATIVE politicians openly stating diversity and race is more important than technical competence/intelligence. Western society is falling downhill faster than a mudslide.

[Anonymous No.2969380]

>>2969368

There's a reason for these illogical, equal outcome, decisions.

[Anonymous No.2969389]

>>2969368
Diversity is the scapegoat for uneasy professors. Affirmative action is a tool, and not the threat.

[Anonymous No.2969393]

It would be great if the role of medicine was expanded into culture, educating people about things such as breast cancer, quitting smoking and various ordinances, helping those with chronic illness.

This is not what this is about though.

[Anonymous No.2969394]

>>2969389
Uneasy professors? What do you mean?

[Anonymous No.2969400]

>>2969394
see
>>2969302
"professors" isn't the word I'd use, but "Doctor" is such a vague term to describe the profession that anything from "professor" to "surgeon"

[Anonymous No.2969404]

>>2969400
...would work.

[Anonymous No.2969402]

>>2969393
That chart makes me sad. I've never understood the purpose of affirmative action, it basically rewards people for their race, not their intellect.

Shit's all retarded.

[Anonymous No.2969411]

>>2969400
So they're basically forcefully stopping competition and artificially falsifying numbers? Eh, isn't that illegal?

[Anonymous No.2969414]

>>2969368
We're entering a new period of creationism.

[Anonymous No.2969447]

>/sci/ doesn't know the difference between "add" and "replace"

[Anonymous No.2969456]

>>2969447
>implying

What use is diversity studies in a medical profession. This just sounds like the typical bullshit screwing around with science these days.

I dislike politics interfering with science, it forces the whole field to become less about facts and more about emotional kneejerking.

[Anonymous No.2969517]

>>2969302

>>too many completely qualified people want to be doctors, challenging the artificial scarcity created by rejecting the majority of willing and competent applicants

If they don't have social competence then they aren't completely qualified. Medicine is an applied field, and as such social performance is as important a skill set as any other skill you must know to perform your job well. It's a no brainer, if you're not qualified for what a job entails (and medicine DOES require constant social interaction), don't go into the field. Do research or assign to lab work. You'll kill someone otherwise.


People who couldn't do this would eventually be phased out anyway. Now they're just officiating it.

[Anonymous No.2969539]

>>2969517
It's not a real problem, it's just a reason for the AMA to justify choking off the supply of doctors. If everyone who was qualified and wanted to be a doctor could become one, their wages would go down. Since the group representing existing doctors has control of the entrance of new doctors into the field, they'll try to keep their wages high and entrants low.

[Anonymous No.2969541]

>>2969368

Short-sighted polices plague Western society like cancer. It's how Rome fell apart, and it appears we're next.

[Anonymous No.2969545]

>>2969393

I don't get the problem with this chart.

Black acceptance rate was 40%
Hispanic acceptance rate was 48.1%
White acceptance rate was 47.6%
Asian acceptance rate was 44.6%

These are all well within the range of incidental variance.

Those midrange figures on the graph mean nothing. There's over 10 times as many white applicants, if there's a limited amount of jobs of course the percentage will appear to skew in the blacks favor. Plus, if they're all equally qualified, from what platform are you complaining?

[Anonymous No.2969562]

>>2969539

That's a rather conspiratorial stance to take, do you have any evidence other than supposition? Hospitals have a regulated amount of positions anyway, and private practices aren't nearly big enough to affect the market, especially when you figure in how few people will actually end up getting culled by the new requierments.

[Anonymous No.2969569]

This'll probably drop acceptance rates for a couple of years due to all the blindsided 3rd and 4th year med students, then it'll just level out again.

[Anonymous No.2969588]

>Requirements are raised in a subject you're good at.
>Fuck yea 'bout they got rid of the riff-raff.
>Requirements are raised in a subject you're not good at.
>PFT-THE FUCK IS THIS? FUCKING BULLSHIT STANDARDS HCKWNOGGH!!?!

[Anonymous No.2969594]

>>2969588
Diversity requirements are not sensible requirements for doctors. It just makes no sense at all.

[Anonymous No.2969609]

>>2969545
An asian with an MCAT score between 30 and 32 is less likely to get accepted than a black with 24-26. Compare acceptance rates for 24-32 like it said.
>>2969562
What supposition? All I did was state a series of facts.

[Anonymous No.2969617]

>>2969545
You must be trolling.

A black student who gets a 24-26 on their MCAT is admitted 63.2% of the time. An asian student with a 24-26 is admitted 14.9% of the time.

[Anonymous No.2969619]

I would personally rather have my doctor know more about their field than about the aborginal people of Herpderpistan. This seems pretty retarded to me.

[:D !bnigGers.Q No.2969636]

lol
<university<education system<government<media

[Anonymous No.2969671]

>Ohio State
shitty school, I don't know why we should care

[Anonymous No.2969692]

>>2969609
>What supposition? All I did was state a series of facts.


>"it's just a reason for the AMA to justify choking off the supply of doctors"
Not a fact

>" If everyone who was qualified and wanted to be a doctor could become one, their wages would go down."
Not a fact

>" they'll try to keep their wages high and entrants low."
Not a fact.

[Anonymous No.2969699]

YOU SIC CAUS DE WHYTE MAN IS RACIS

[Anonymous No.2969708]

They should require med students to know at least Cal 3. This would reduce their numbers by at least half.

[Anonymous No.2969721]

>>2969617
Affirmative action is racist towards blacks, it basically admits that they are inferior and need help to be on the level of others.

[Anonymous No.2969740]

What happened:

>a bunch of pre-med and biology kids who were only regurgitating memorized shit on tests to get As with no critical thinking skills or social ability to work with patients were the only people able to get into med school so med school starting to look at other people who even though didnt have all the biology knowledge werent complete tools

[Anonymous No.2969748]

>>2969740
what's going to happen

>shitty doctors who don't know science everywhere

cure worse then the disease

[Anonymous No.2969754]

>>2969748
Competence isn't as important as being culturally inclined. You can use magic to heal people!

[Anonymous No.2969760]

>>2969692
Oops, sorry I'm not
>>2969539
I'm
>>2969393
I thought you were replying to me, I made mistake.

[Anonymous No.2969763]

>>2969740

Nice try philosofag

Med students have entire classes devoted to bed side manner and interacting with patients and their families.

They have to role play, and they do have to pass the class, like every other med school class.

Someone who has learned science and math has much better critical thinking skills than a bunch of philosophy retards circle jerking each other with a bunch of impossible hypothetical and rhetorical questions.

The idea that humanities, social sciences, and liberal arts give better critical thinking skills is false, and is only perpetuated by those students to keep them from realizing their area of study is completely useless.

[Anonymous No.2969798]

>>2969740
So what does this have to do with race or culture? How does someone's taste in music or skin color help them make the best decisions to remove a malignant tumor from a vital organ?

Sorry but this is plain ignorant. Liberalism has drifted from it's logical humanist roots and you should be ashamed, if something is wrong it's wrong, stop being such a pussy and tell the truth.

[Anonymous No.2969864]

>>2969721
>it basically admits that they are inferior and need help to be on the level of others

Well.....

[Anonymous No.2969871]

>>2969393
>All races between 45% - 50% acceptence
Affirmative action quotas are so obvious.

http://vimeo.com/5104173

[Anonymous No.2969892]

>>252889
>All races between 40% - 50% acceptance
Affirmative action quotas are so obvious.

http://vimeo.com/5104173

[Anonymous No.2969902]

>>2969393
>All races between 40% - 50% acceptance
Affirmative action quotas are so obvious.

http://vimeo.com/5104173

[Anonymous No.2969918]

>>2969902

[Anonymous No.2969924]

>>2969918
Do you have the math scores?

[Anonymous No.2969933]

>>2969748

They didn't say anything about medical standards, if anything it will raise the standard of medical care, since only exceptional students will be able to be so well rounded.


>>2969763

>Someone who has learned science and math has much better critical thinking skills than a bunch of philosophy retards circle jerking each other with a bunch of impossible hypothetical and >rhetorical questions.

>The idea that humanities, social sciences, and liberal arts give better critical thinking skills is false, and is only perpetuated by those students to keep them from realizing their area of study is completely useless.

Typical bullshit for someone who's never taken any higher than a 200 level scholastic class. I'm a Biochem grad and even I'm not totally clueless about the world around me.


>>2969798

>So what does this have to do with race or culture? How does someone's taste in music or skin color help them make the best decisions to remove a malignant tumor from a vital organ?

It may not, but it may help them connect and communicate to a given patient, or give a foundationally different perspective during diagnosis.

Besides, Affirmative action was never about short term benefits or reductionist concepts of "fairness" anyway. It's about long term societal effects, and for a people so aware of the foreboding of long term issues (global warming, stem cell research, evolution, extinction events...) and how rarely we actually get a chance to FIX them, I'm surprised by how few people here grasp the issue here.

[Anonymous No.2969939]

>>2969924
Only been able to find the 2009 one. I have another similar chart though on PISA.

[Anonymous No.2969955]

>>2969933
right...how about you get treated by the "culturally competent" doctors, and I get treated by the scientifically competent doctors.

[Anonymous No.2969957]

>>2969740
>>2969517
"Cultural competence" sounds like a meaningless buzzword, first of all, but it definitely is not the same thing as basic social competence. Basic social competence is already controlled for because med schools typically require some form of interview specifically to weed out the asspies who can't at least appear competent. There's no real justification for forcing doctors to have some sort of cultural knowledge that they're just going to memorize anyway because they're premed.
>>2969562
It's not conspiratorial. The AMA is a real organization of doctors. If more people attend and graduate from medical school, there will be more qualified doctors. Doctors in the US are paid much more than doctors in other industrialized countries. If there were more MDs, basic economics shows that doctors would in turn be paid less. None of this is conspiratorial. There are 194 fully accredited law schools in the US and only 133 schools offering MDs. Clearly, there is some reason for this, and the AMA has control over both medical school accreditation and thus over the number of qualified doctors. There is a clear motive why the AMA would try to artificially limit the number of doctors and the given reason is obviously absolute bullshit, to conclude that their true motive is not so innocent is only reasonable.

[m1ckey !dkJI/P7Y32 No.2969958]

>>2969924
It's in here:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/101219_pisa.htm

[Anonymous No.2969959]

>>2969918
>USA ASIAN 541
>USA WHITE 525

>US TOTAL 500

>US HISPANIC 466
>US BLACK 441

Jees, those differences are vast.

[Anonymous No.2969967]

>>2969933
>They didn't say anything about medical standards, if anything it will raise the standard of medical care
I'm not who you are replying to but this statement is just confusing. This has to be an error. You can't possibly state something so contradictory and not realize it. Can you?

[Anonymous No.2969981]

>>2969958
>vdare
Bad source, vdare are the actual racists that supporters of affirmative action like to pretend all their opponents are.

[Anonymous No.2970000]

>>2969981
But supporters of affirmative action ARE racist. Can become quite confusing.

They don't see differences in intellect, just race. And they agree blacks are inferior by basically admitting they require affirmative help to be on the same level as others. I'd prefer the actual racists, than to fucks who try to pretend they're on your side.

[Anonymous No.2970011]

The problem is inequality, not race. You wouldn't need affirmative action in america if poorfags could get a decent government funded education like in the civilized world.

[Anonymous No.2970036]

>>2970011
Bullshit. Poor whites exist as well, and they still do better than their poor black/hispanic counterparts.

Such an argument always boils down to poor whites not existing AT ALL. Which is goddamn ridiculous. Also intellect = more wealth.

[Anonymous No.2970041]

>>2969959

Test is racist. QED.

[Anonymous No.2970058]

>>2970041
Reality is racist.

[Anonymous No.2970060]

>>2969955

False dichotomy, who says these "culturally competent" doctors will be less skilled in medical matters? They're not dumbing down the technical portion of the MCAT.


>>2969967
See above, they make no mention of the medical standards, so it can be assumed that they remain the same. That the bar of requirements has in totality been raised, and thus it will take better students to pass the test.

>>2969957


>It's not conspiratorial. The AMA is a real organization of doctors. If more people attend and graduate from medical school, there will be more qualified doctors. Doctors in the US are paid much more than doctors in other industrialized countries. If there were more MDs, basic economics shows that doctors would in turn be paid less. None of this is conspiratorial. There are 194 fully accredited law schools in the US and only 133 schools offering MDs. Clearly, there is some reason for this, and the AMA has control over both medical school accreditation and thus over the number of qualified doctors.

It's conspiratorial because motive & means (however flimsy they may be) mean nothing when no crime has been committed. We have no reason to believe this will slow the flow of graduates nearly enough to affect the market, nor do we have any reason to believe they've tried to manipulate the market before aside from drawing meaningless lines to connect disparate pieces of information. For such a large organization it would take unreasonable colligence and collective maliciousness, and the whole thing is overly complex compared to the idea that the board simply trends liberal these days and they thought tightening the MCAT on other subjects would be a good idea.

Also, every facet of their plan, by your logic, is subject to many other and many more powerful forces than what they could hope to exert on the market.

[Anonymous No.2970065]

>>2970058

So we fix reality by taking race into account.

QED.

[:D !bnigGers.Q No.2970071]

What if you didnt require a license to be a medic and everything depends on the practical experience of the doctor that could be obtained very easily by the pacient, or even used as something to advertise. Being in medschool is just randomly "hard" and is not even that hard is just the fact that the cut-off is so small on purpose

[Anonymous No.2970080]

>>2970065
How exactly do you fix reality? Reality is reality, no amount of liberal magic will "fix" it.

[Anonymous No.2970085]

>>2970036

Poor whites exist, but their culture doesn't exist as a manifestation of their impoverishment. Whatever their income bracket is their culture still tells them their the owners of the planet. Black culture still exists almost entirely in terms of it's own survival. Social momentum counts for much more than any selective group of income brackets or test scores.

[Anonymous No.2970198]

>>2970080

Affirmation action. It fixes the wrongs of the past.

Less blacks in college => let more in
Less blacks in med schools => let more in
Less blacks at hospitals => let more in
QED.

[Anonymous No.2970206]

>>2970198

[Anonymous No.2970257]

i don't see what this has to do with race thought i mean it is pants on head retarded expecting doctors to need to learn unrelated crap. But all these people are herp derp affirmative action, Orwellian leftists equalitrain Marxists. This is just the arts trying to make themselves relevant even where they are not. Massive knee jerk reaction in the wrong direction.

[Anonymous No.2970263]

Why decide by race? Isn't it easier to decide by social background?

[Anonymous No.2970276]

>>2970263

No, poor whites weren't slaves and to this day don't get followed around in stores.

Will Smith's kids have more to fight against than the average middle class white kid.

[Anonymous No.2970291]

>>2970276
Gotta be troll. And if not, please explain to me why all races should be equal to begin with in the first place...

[Anonymous No.2970293]

>>2970000
I would not be so despicable.
>>2970060
There is no bar, there will still be the same number of applicants and the same demand for doctors whether this motion is carried or not and you said it "didn't say anything about medical standards" so you will be factoring in something that has nothing to do with medical standards into judging something which is 100% about medical standards.

It is totally illogical. It just is. This has nothing to do with race or quality of care.

[Anonymous No.2970311]

>>2970291
>>2970291
i would have to agree with him about the will smith kids thing their mother looks scary as hell

[Anonymous No.2970322]

>>2970263
Or we could judge our doctors by merit, so your cancer is caught early instead of missed by an incompetent doctor who only got his job by being "cultural competent".

[Anonymous No.2970346]

>>2970322

It's not about catching cancer or not. It's about making sure the next generation have someone to look up to.

[Anonymous No.2970351]

>>2970346

[Anonymous No.2970352]

>>2970291

It's not about equal. Society isn't equal. The distribution of every school, every college, every medical school, every hospital should be the same as the nation's. What's wrong with that?

[Anonymous No.2970358]

>>2970352
the reality part

[Anonymous No.2970385]

>>2969368
>implying Cameron isn't really a liberal in disguise

UKIP is the only good conservative party left in Britain

[Anonymous No.2970438]

Best doctor I ever had was black, she was great because she wasn't a stupid asshole. That's pretty rare to find and I doubt you could teach it to white people.

[Anonymous No.2970565]

>>2970438
LOL see >>2969414

See "example of a dumb argument"

[Anonymous No.2971936]

diversity is new buzz word in medical school

[Insinuates gODs No.2971948]

Definition of medical doctor:

Keeping the parasitic filth alive for money.