Space exploration

[Anonymous No.2883452]

I have a question that's been on my mind the last few days.

Given the economic crises around the world, and the fact that the US is doomed to collapse on itself, do you guys think that the human race will ever leave Earth?

There is no money in space exploration right now, and the costs would be prohibitively expensive to even venture to mars regularly, so where is the incentive? Money is what makes everything happen, and unless we have a 'Star Trek' moment and everyone decides to work for the greater good of the whole, I feel the human race is doomed to fall into obscurity.

Do you believe we are at the peak of human civilization right now? Do you think that we will just use up this planet and all of it's natural resources without developing alternatives before it is too late?

Personally, I believe we're screwed. Even if we were to explore space, we lack the technology (currently) to even leave our solar system safely.

Thoughts?

Try and keep it civil, I'm not an astrophysicist or an economist, just thinking about our future.

[Anonymous No.2883463]

I think we will. We're ambitious, and we have survived everything else that has come our way.

[Anonymous No.2883468]

If we stopped spending so much money on entitlements (on people who are contributing nothing to society) then maybe we would have enough left over for some space exploration. Its funny how liberals always want to raise taxes and somehow know whats best but Clinton had the chance and didn't do squat and now Obumble is doing the same thing.

[Anonymous No.2883484]

>>2883468
you would think that of the $1.6 trillion DEFICIT we could fund the Orion program or the Terrestrial Planet Finder but, NO according to ACORN as long as the welfare queens can keep popping out a dozen crack babies (and future dem voters) everything is fine

[Anonymous No.2883496]

>>2883484
Isn't the national debt and the deficit ridiculous?
$14 Trillion dollars debt, $1.6 Trillion dollar deficit.
The deficit alone is more than the amount of stars in the Milky Way.

The national debt is 14,000,000 Million dollars. Is that even a real number?

I wish money didn't matter this much, I really want to see some monumental discovery in space before I die.

[Anonymous No.2883559]

>>2883496
Hyperinflation, Peak Oil and the collapse of technological society are more likely to happen before you die. Face it, the universe has a test, are "intelligent" species intelligent and lucky enough to use their resources to last and endure or will they exhaust them collapse and die. We were given millions of years worth of oil, uranium, rare earth metals and we used them in 100 years on uncontrolled (7 Billion and counting) population growth and WAR. We were given one of the most resource rich systems in our corner of the galaxy and we're going to waste it. We have failed, it appears we aren't much more developed than the apes we evolved from.

[Anonymous No.2883621]

>There is no money in space exploration right now

Wrong. Space-X, Bigelow Aerospace, and others are still expanding.

>Even if we were to explore space, we lack the technology (currently) to even leave our solar system safely.

We've had the technology for a while. It's just ludicrously expensive. Which is the main reason we haven't done much in space.

[Anonymous No.2883637]

>>2883559
>Face it, the universe has a test

A test, you say?

[Anonymous No.2883639]

>>2883621
What i mean is, unless we can create some sort of interplanetary transportation, or mining, or SOMETHING to make going into space worth it, eventually those companies will run out of money and investors.

So what is in space that makes exploration worth it? Other than the excitement of the unknown? Is there something concrete investors can sink their teeth into?

[Anonymous No.2883649]

>>2883559
Damn, that shit was profound. I agree with you.

[Anonymous No.2883653]

>>2883639
The materials gleaned from asteroids could easily yield trillions upon trillions of dollars, but what it may cost to get them here may be even more. What about the moon? The world's Helium supply is running out. Any way to harvest the He3 from its surface?

[Anonymous No.2883664]

>>2883639
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

At 1997 prices, a relatively small metallic asteroid with a diameter of 1 mile (1.6 km) contains more than $20 trillion US dollars worth of industrial and precious metals.

Twenty. Trillion. Dollars.

[Anonymous No.2883668]

>>2883653
Ah yeah, the asteroid belt. I guess if we could find a way to safely venture out there to mine, it could be worth it. Interesting thought, if it were successfully mined, could it have the potential to fund the research for faster space-travel technology?

[Anonymous No.2883674]

>>2883664
New plan - /sci/ pools all of our money together, goes and gets an asteroid, and splits the proceeds evenly.

[Anonymous No.2883676]

>Even if we were to explore space, we lack the technology (currently) to even leave our solar system safely

Why do we need to do that exactly? Do you know how much room and how many resources there are in the solar system? It will be centuries before we would need to leave.

[Anonymous No.2883680]

>>2883676
Because I want to see something amazing! I'm greedy and I want the mysteries of the universe to be answered in my lifetime.

[Anonymous No.2883683]

>>2883674
Pooled Funds: approximately $20

Gentlemen, let's go to space. But we're on a budget.

[Anonymous No.2883710]

>>2883680
Interstellar craft aren't likely to answer a lot of mysteries. They might find life at their destinations, though. That'd be neat.

[Anonymous No.2883716]

>>2883680
>>2883674
>>2883668
>>2883664
>>2883653

EROEI - Energy Returned on Energy Invested

It's an important concept. Learn it.

EROEI for Oil (1950) = 100
EROEI for Oil (2010) = 15
EROEI for Solar PV = 8
EROEI for Nuclear = 5
EROEI for Fusion = 1 (until about 2015, then it will be 2)


EROEI drives our technology and economy, fossil fuels are the most useful form of energy because they contain MILLIONS of years of stored solar energy. WHEN THEY RUN OUT WE ARE PROBABLY FUCKED.

[Anonymous No.2883728]

>>2883452
I'd rather just sit in my basement and masterbate to saffron in firefly.

[Anonymous No.2883734]

Does oil only exist on planets with life?

If it exists on other planets, then I'm sure that will eventually be enough motivation assuming there is enough oil to make the trips worth it.

[Anonymous No.2883740]

>>2883716
No. We will not be fucked. We will simply have to switch to less-efficient solutions. As oil prices rise due to scarcity, alternatives will become more attractive in comparison. Pretty much every product you can image is going to get more expensive as the oil runs out. But the loss of crude alone is not going to cripple the world. At least not all of it.

I'd worry a lot more about the ridiculous economic crisis looming over us.

[Anonymous No.2883748]

>>2883734
"Fossil fuels" are called so because they are the fossilized remains of ancient organic matter (primarily plant life). If you were to find a planet that has or had life, then you may possibly find something like fossils fuels there.

[Anonymous No.2883750]

>>2883734
I think so. Oil is derived from carbon-based life over the course of millions of years.

[Anonymous No.2883751]

>>2883734
that's actually the only way to get the energy industry to fund spaceflight. Governments aren't interested, it will take a business.

[Anonymous No.2883753]

This economic crisis is going to send the 'civilized' world into a new stone age anyway. Sad. We were so close to First Contact.

[Anonymous No.2883757]

>>2883734
>making interstellar trips to transport petroleum

can't tell if trolling or not

[Anonymous No.2883771]

>>2883740
As the energy return of our energy sources declines so to will earth's population and living standards. It will become greatly more expensive to travel into space, and people probably won't want to, because they will be starving. The Economic crises is a direct result of falling energy returns associated with oil. Our society needs an EROEI of 10 to function normally.

[Anonymous No.2883775]

>>2883734
We're unlikely to find many fossil fuels on planets that never had life to begin with. It's not like oil's the only useful thing we could get, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbons_on_other_planets

[Anonymous No.2883782]

>>2883757
that's probably the only reason W. wanted to go back to the moon. NASA told him there was oil there.

[Anonymous No.2883789]

>>2883775
>>2883771
>>2883734

i hope yall niggas know that any amount of oil that can fit in a spaceship contains several orders of magnitude less energy than it would take to propel the ship

[Anonymous No.2883790]

>>2883771
>As the energy return of our energy sources declines so to will earth's population and living standards.

Living standards, most likely. Population? Depends on future developments.

>It will become greatly more expensive to travel into space, and people probably won't want to, because they will be starving.

People are starving now. You're right, though, expansion in space will probably slow quite a bit.

>The Economic crises is a direct result of falling energy returns associated with oil.

All of them? Every single crisis, including the United State's debt spiral?

>Our society needs an EROEI of 10 to function normally.

Hence, we will need to adapt to a situation in which this is no longer possible.

[Anonymous No.2883793]

money and naked women

[Anonymous No.2883804]

TheOildrum.com

[Anonymous No.2883806]

>Bush
>oil

by that logic Obama's after all kinda oil

[Anonymous No.2883813]

>>2883676
>centuries

[Anonymous No.2883824]

Do you think that we will just use up this planet and all of it's natural resources without developing alternatives before it is too late?

yes we will

funny you mentioned the economic crisis because the same state on mentality that brought on the economic collapse will also bring on the post-petroleum era. Before 2009 EVERY economist knew that real estate was a bubble. They announced it almost daily. Did anyone do anything about it? no. Everyone bought up real estate like consumer zombies who thought real estate would go up in value forever.

Now its 2011 and every economist knows that the oil era will end. Is anyone doing anything about it? no. We are using it up like consumer zombies who think oil will last forever, except this time, when the industry collapses, its game over for modern civilization. GG humans.

[Anonymous No.2883825]

what about string theory and CERN? isn't it possible, that if we break some scientific barrier, we can find alternatives to fossil fuels?

[Anonymous No.2883834]

>>2883825
We already have plenty of alternatives.

[Anonymous No.2883837]

>>2883825
of course, the only problem will be the enormous amount of products that are produced via oil refinery. once we run out of crude, we're not looking at just the loss of fuel, but lubricants, plastics, etc.

[Anonymous No.2883839]

>>2883824
>except this time, when the industry collapses, its game over for modern civilization.

No, it's the end of cheap products.

[Anonymous No.2883847]

>>2883837
Fortunately, synthetics can replace crude at every point in the chain. Unfortunately, the production of these synthetics takes a hell of a lot of energy, which we can't cheaply provide without oil.

Better start cranking out thorium reactors before things get really bad.

[Anonymous No.2883850]

>>2883452
So if light took 13 billion years to travel to earth, how did all those galaxies get there?. The universe wasn't old enough to have galaxies like that 13 billion years ago. How did those galaxies get 13 billion years away from us when the universe was still young? Did they travel faster than light?

Whaddup wit dat?

[Anonymous No.2883857]

>>2883716
Since we don't have worthwhile fusion plants, how did you get that figure? Also, there are other power production methods beyond fusion. But the tech for those are way, way off.

>>2883837
There are lots of synthetic ways to make lubricants and plastics

[Anonymous No.2883858]

>>2883850
The universe is expanding faster than the speed of light. At some point in the far future, this expansion will outpace the light already in transit from every other galaxy.

In essence, that means that a few billion years out, we will only be able to see our own galaxy. The sky will otherwise be completely dark.

[Anonymous No.2883861]

>>2883839
cheap products are a result of modern civilization, it's why we can use jet fuel to transport a widget from china to your doorstep with a click of a mouse.

The end of the oil era will mean your local town is the only thing producing products for you, while gangs of thugs roam the street looking to steal and rape.

The end of civilization as we know it brah

[Anonymous No.2883862]

Didn't Russia say recently that space exploration was one of it's priorities? Even with America's huge economic problems, I'd hoped that this was an indication that space exploration in general wasn't disregarded yet.

>>2883825
>scientific barrier
This. Scientists are learning more and more without the need to spend heaps of money.

[Anonymous No.2883864]

>>2883847
thats what im saying, say we have the replacements already, but we're not producing them. it won't happen until its already too late, but i dont think its an all hope is lost moment, i'm sure we'll persevere.

[Anonymous No.2883869]

>>2883857
tokomak reactors, just wiki it.
also ITER.
Nuclear Physicists have really let us down with fusion.

[Anonymous No.2883875]

>>2883858
Faster than light? I thought that was a scientific no-no. I knew the expansion was accelerating. Who says its expanding faster than light?

[Anonymous No.2883879]

>>2883861
>The end of the oil era will mean your local town is the only thing producing products for you, while gangs of thugs roam the street looking to steal and rape.

No. It will mean that alternative energy sources and synthetic oils will replace crude. The price of everything under the sun will rise. This will not be the end of civilization. It will be the end of cheap transport and cheap manufacturing.

[Anonymous No.2883883]

>>2883869
That's my point though. None of those reactors are power generating. If we got the tech figured out and hooked them into the grid I would think their cost would be improved because of the efficiency of the fusion process. I guess it depends on the fuel though.

[Anonymous No.2883887]

>>2883782
lmao at NASA trolling the president.

"We should go back to the moon."

W.: "Why?"

NASA: Umm, cus it's for science.

W.: DUMB

NASA: What we meant to say was there's scientific OIL there.

W.: WHY AREN'T WE ALREADY THERE?

[Anonymous No.2883889]

>>2883875
Nothing is physically traveling faster than light. Every point in the universe is getting farther away from every other point. A good illustration is this: Take a balloon, and use a marker to put a bunch of dots on it. If you start blowing up the balloon, each of those dots is going to get farther away from the other. That's what's happening to space.

[Anonymous No.2883892]

>>2883879 It will be much like the "dark ages," where only elites and the merchant class will lead comfortable lives. Most of us will toil to live.

[Anonymous No.2883898]

>>2883892
Much of the world is in that state right now.

[Anonymous No.2883894]

The future won't be humans using lots of energy to scoot around the universe, it will be a new stage of evolution on earth, with transhumans, superhumans, cyborgs, "nanomechemical" organisms and/or some other potential form of life we haven't discovered yet battling it out for supremacy. The winning species will undoubtedly be highly intelligent, biologically immortal and capable of designing species that can survive on other worlds which it will send out to build solar powered civilizations on the moon, mars, to alter the atmosphere of venus using extremophile biological organisms, the moons of gas giants, which will then send back precious minerals to earth. This will spur on further developments and civilization will be extra-terrestrial, though no longer human.

[Anon No.2883900]

The singularity. Ray Kurzweill. 2045?
Everything will change. Human life will succeed even if there is great tragedy.

[Anonymous No.2883916]

this thread kinda derailed though, as it stands, the only way we'll be able to leave our solar system is through physics and science. rockets that consume huge amounts of fuel will be replaced, by more efficient means, who's to say we won't figure out that we can produce worm holes, or fold space? probably not in our generation though, but as newer generations grow up and build upon what we've left them, i think they'll find ways to make it out of our solar system.

[Anonymous No.2883926]

>>2883889
Perhaps. I'm not convinced the universe is expanding. The red shift with distance has been observed to be quantized. This makes no sense if the red shift is due to speed. The red shift should be a smooth continuous increase with distance.

[Anonymous No.2883927]

Saw this today, and thought we really, really need to get our shit together.

It's not like it's imminent, but I guess all this time I thought we had much more time than we actually do.

[Anonymous No.2883938]

>>2883916
Pretty much. The most we can hope for is maybe a Mars landing and the end phase of rocket engine tech (solid hydrogen fuel). Beyond that it's tough to tell. If we can actually ever download ourselves onto a computer that would drastically change everything. Just strap a "colony" computer and von neumann machine to an ion drive and just push it out. As long as there is electricity, the mission can last as long as you want.

[Anonymous No.2883943]

>>2883858

"In essence, that means that a few billion years out, we will only be able to see our own galaxy. The sky will otherwise be completely dark."

Imagine how atrocious that would be if Humanity were to have developed at such a stage. O_O I can hear the religious now...

Side note to your post: cool eh?

[Anonymous No.2883944]

>>2883927
Considering human civilization has existed for around ten thousand years, I think we have plenty.

[Anonymous No.2883946]

Space travel has probably gone as far as it's going to go. The limitation is the specific impulse of chemical rocket propellants. Nuclear rocket engines have a much better specific impulse, but they will never be built and flown.

I think that we will strip the Earth bare of resources like locusts, and simply fade away.

[Anonymous No.2883951]

>>2883926
I don't suppose you've read this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift_quantization#Evaluation_and_criticism

[Anonymous No.2883971]

>>2883892
So... it won't be any different?

[Anonymous No.2884008]

>>2883951
No I haven't, but after skimming it, it appears to be more hypothetical conjecture to make observations fit the standard model. The expanding universe theory has a lack luster track record for making predictions. It also has a voluminous record to "make fit", by postulation alone, any observation that contradicts the expanding universe theory. Beginning to sound like flat earthers trying to explain the retrograde motion of planents.

[Anonymous No.2884280]

>>2883894
>The future won't be humans.. it will be a new stage of evolution ... transhumans, superhumans, cyborgs, "nanomechemical" organisms ... The winning species will be ...
...Japan.

[Anonymous No.2884812]

Just like conspiracy theorists, people who say civilization will collapse and go into completely chaos because no more oil for some reason do nothing about it.

[Anonymous No.2886352]

>>2884812
actually they probably work for solar pv manufacturers. At least this one does. Other than that I suggest everyone has a little 'victory' garden.

[Anonymous No.2886945]

>>2883894
>>2883452

Pretty much the pessimistic and optimistic extremes right there.

Personally, I think humanity will have more of a slow decline, punctuated by the occasional wars, famines, and plagues. Read "Collapse" by Jared M. Diamond.

I am hopeful that we will have created artificial intelligences in the next few centuries. They will have different needs and goals, with a real possibility of adapting themselves to extraterrestrial environments, spreading intelligence beyond the surface o the Earth.