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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2872152 No.2872152 [Reply] [Original]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110412/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_earthquake_rating

>TOKYO – News reports say Japan has decided to raise the severity level of the crisis at its tsunami-stricken nuclear power plant to 7 — the highest level and equal to the 1986 disaster at Chernobyl in the former Soviet Union.

>Quoting sources at Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, Kyodo News agency and public broadcaster NHK both said Tuesday that NISA would raise the severity level of the nuclear radiation disaster at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant to 7 from the current 5.

>> No.2872166

bumptastic

>> No.2872170
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2872170

Who cares? Homeopathy will save us all.

>> No.2872180

guys im raising the severity of my micro wave to level 8 so now im number one!!

>> No.2872181
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2872181

Whoa, Captain Obvious to the rescue! Whoever didn't see this disaster as being a total clusterfuck of huge proportions before this raise in the level was a retard.

>> No.2872208

>>2872181
HAHAHAHAHA...lets have another thread about thorium. pokerface.jpg

>> No.2872221

ahh well now thats settled. its a Chernobyl! so its back to fossil fuels... there wasn't any problems with those were there?

>> No.2872236

Where are all those sci fags claiming it could never possibly reach a level 7?
Choking on their unjustified sense of self superiority?

>> No.2872251

>>2872221

I'd prefer to die of lung cancer and smog than I would get irradiated to death like a microwave dinner.

But, fortunately those aren't the only two options! We have a bunch of different sources of energy. We don't have to choke or get cooked. Woah! Who'da thunk that one, eh?

>> No.2872262

>>2872236
plotting the revenge of thorium, i'd bet.

hahahahahahahaha.

pokerface.jpg

>> No.2872285
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2872285

still nuclear is cleaner than fossil and possible to implement today, unlike solar or wind

>> No.2872290

>>2872285
good thing i'll never have to hear about that ever again in any real life situation.

hahahahahahahahaha

pokerface.jpg

>> No.2872295 [DELETED] 
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2872295

>>2872152
>level 7
>no one has died from radiation
>%99 of the core is still contained
>mfw

>> No.2872298

So, are we all gonna die or what?

>> No.2872305

>>2872251
other options????!!!! oh ya! cause theres lots of interest in that! the Big money, (big interest) is not in finding affordable alt energy. its either privatively profitable (screw you consumer) or classically controlled (oil). I'm as enviro as any, but look at the politics. (sorry you cant get away from it)

>> No.2872321

>>2872305
yea, but they haven't chernobyl'd the whole world in radiation, so they still get to be a part of the public debate...

thorium, hahahahahahahahaha

pokerface.jpg

>> No.2872336

>>2872295
Right... it's all a conspiracy. Japan want people to think it's worse than it is.
Or maybe you just like to think you are more intelligent than those involved?
OMG DERP DERP STUPID EXPERTS WHO ARE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THE EVENT... WTF DO THEY KNOW?

>> No.2872346

>>2872321

i can taste the thori-tards' tears now. oh the sweet, sweet sorrow.

>> No.2872363

>>2872305
There is room for disruptive innovation in the energy industry.

In the last 5 years a handful of small companies specializing in hydraulic fracturing have carved out a large share in one of the world's largest gas fields(Marcellus shale). None of the big oil and gas companies got in.

All the world need is a handful of start up companies with good ideas and the balls to stay independent.

>> No.2872375

What the honest fuck is even going on? I thought this shit was done and over once the power got reconnected. Why is this still a thing?

>> No.2872377

>>2872336
There has been a release of radiation, but the first responders did not get anywhere near the level of radiation that the first responders at Chernobyl got.

All of the first responders at Fukishima are alive. All of the first responders at Chernobyl died in 30 days.

>> No.2872392

>>2872375
nuclear power, its just that dangerous.

>> No.2872400

It's no where near a 7. It is a 6 at most. Right between TMI and Chernobyl.

>> No.2872405

>>2872295
>until it explodes.

Yeah mate, an unexploded bomb is still a fucking bomb.

>> No.2872410

Is this just people trying to reclassify the event after it occurred, or did something more actually happen? Because if it's the latter it's a 5 or 6, hands down, and anyone stating it's higher is full of shit. And if it's the former, the fuck happened?

>> No.2872417

>>2872410
tons of radiation leaking into the atmosphere and the ocean.

japanese officials have every reason to downplay the real extent of damage, and in no way would be caught overstating the catastrophe.

>> No.2872423

>>2872417
>tons of radiation leaking into the atmosphere and the ocean.

But that's wrong you retard,

>> No.2872424

>>2872295
The danger levels are linked to amount of radiating matter released in an incident, not how many people have directly died.
The economic effect this desaster will have, is enough damage if you ask me.

>> No.2872427

>>2872417
So something more happened, or are you claiming that during the event radiation leaked into the atmosphere / ocean? Because if it's the latter you're just full of shit and I can continue to ignore you.

>> No.2872432
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2872432

and just a couple of weeks ago all of /sci/ was going "HURR DURR NOTHING'S GONNA HAPPEN, I KNOW THIS BECUZ I HAVE 4 PHDS IN NUCLEAR PHYSICS"

fucking idiots

>> No.2872439

>>2872424
>implying this disaster is going to have an economic effect beyond forcing the plant to shut down and making nuclear power less popular worldwide

>> No.2872445

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp9iJ3pPuL8

Get out of here Stalker

There's no point in debating that there has been a massive release of radioactive material. Some of the workers that stood in water puddles had their feet fried.

>> No.2872455

>>2872445
>implying the company is even capable of pulling off the massive coverup operation you're accusing them of

Cockup before conspiracy. Always remember that.

>> No.2872457

>>2872439
yea, china and japan not being able to sell another fish for 30-40 years due to the radiation levels, thats no economic impact at all.

>> No.2872462

>>2872457
Do you have ANY proof that significant amounts of radiation was released? ANY at all?

The releases that happened were local in nature. There won't be an effect beyond the block the reactor sat on.

>> No.2872470

They deserved this for what they did to Pearl Harbor. Karma is a bitch.

>> No.2872486

All this could have been prevented if they gave us money.

Too fucking bad for those gooks.

>> No.2872489

>>2872439

1) No more fishing, agriculture, whatever in that region
2) A no go zone which is lost to humanity. They won't have to worry about housing bubbles there.
3) Overall damage to japanese products. A lot of people will think twice before buying a japanese car now. However justified it may be.

>> No.2872496

>NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive materials from Fukushima plant 10% of amount from Chernobyl (11:14) (kyodo)
In total, a little over 100,000-160,000 terabecquerels.
What worries Japan is the fact that they have yet to cap this. It's still leaking a terabecquerel a day, the core in reactor 1 has been heating up and producing radiation spikes in the Drywall, and the constant need to keep the reactors cool adds to the radioactive water in the basement which is counter productive to clearing the basement and fixing the permanent cooling system.
Overall, Chernobyl was a quick event and was brought down in severity based on the work of the liquidators.
Japan will not send in individuals to do what needs to be done, leading to a catch -22. Their is no end game in sight, only reactionary behavior.
I guess, it was a combination of all of the above that pushed the severity up to a level 7.

>> No.2872504

>>2872489
None of which is going to happen. Barely any of that even happened in Chernobyl, and this is not even an order of magnitude close to that.

>> No.2872510

>>2872462
radioactive particles from the plant have been found as far away as the central USA. Minimal amounts, but it proves the radiation will travel far.

>> No.2872512

>>2872510
/facepalm
That is all.

>>2872496
So we're up to, what, half a nuclear bomb test worth of total radiation?

>> No.2872522

>>2872496
Continuing on:
The nuclear liaison in Japan is giving a press conference on NHK. He stated that the total release of "1/10 of Chernobyl" has only been a low estimate. He stated that the majority of the rating was based on the current condition of the reactor cores and containment systems.

>> No.2872525

>>2872504
Are we living on the same planet? Last I checked there is a 20 km evac zone around fukushima, that is going to be expanded.
Hey, if it's no problem, why don't you buy some land there now? Bet it's dirt cheap.

>> No.2872550

>>2872512
>>2872522
Basically. To be fair, the Liaison just stated that it is not really known as to how much radiation has been released. They claim that they don't even know the readings going airborne from the reactors. This report was established by a third party who was working off the data that Tepco has provided. Not very encouraging.

>> No.2872568

>>2872525
We live on the same planet. You just don't understand how radiation works, what levels are dangerous and how long it remains dangerous.

People live in areas that have had worse "disasters" to this day. My Dad lives in one right now. Even Chernobyl is safe to live in now, although nobody really wants to.

I watched that video. The whole thing. 110 micro sieverts per hour is fine. You could live there and be fine. It's not recommended by any measure, but the truth is you'd survive. And in a month, assuming they stop further leaks (which it does sound like they haven't), it'll be half what it is now. And half again in another month. In 10 years it won't even be present.

>> No.2872580

I find it hilarious that all the info we get is from tepco.
Hello japanese government! How about sending in a team of specialists instead of the Tokyo fire department? I want some unbiased geiger counter readings here. Duh, stay classy japan.

>> No.2872595

Do any of you chuckle heads realize all that seawater they have been pumping in to keep those cores cool have to go somewhere. Give you a hint it's the largest body of water on the planet. And that already has garbage slick the size of Texas. how much crap until create a total global ecological nightmare of biblical proportions.

>> No.2872612

>>2872568
I know very well how radiation works.
2 millisievert per year is about the normal yearly dosage from natural background radiation. Depends on where you live of course.

Now let's assume you get 100 microsievert per hour. That would mean you'd get 364 * 24 * 100 microSv per year. That is 876000 microSv or 876 milliSv per year.

Now compare 876 mSv to the normal 2 mSV and you see why this is not so good in the long run.

Also what makes you think that the radiation will go down? Caesium 137 has a half life of 30 years.
Plutonium and Uranium goes into the thousands.

>> No.2872613

Honestly, I don't really trust what TEPCO is saying. I see this as being comparable to the BP oil spill, and the figure that BP released. They always seemed to lowball the problem to avoid bankrupting the corporation.
As of now, the numbers are fully controlled by TEPCO, and thus is the information.

>> No.2872614

>>2872580
http://mextrad.blob.core.windows.net/page/13_Tokyo_en.html

>> No.2872631

>>2872612
867 mSv over the course of a year is survivable. It is highly not recommended, but it is survivable.

The radiation will rapidly decrease because what has been released are by products, not actual uranium. The by products produced by the standard fission reaction have very, very short half lives; sometimes as short as a few hours, others weeks.

>> No.2872634

>>2872580
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/%E6%94%BE%E5%B0%84%E7%B7%9A%E3%83%AC%E3%83%99%E3%83%AB

there's been people broadcasting the levels everywhere since this shit started.
tepco hasn't lied about the levels, and here in tokyo we're not becoming mutants yet.
in fact, radiation in tokyo is 0
obviously it's much higher in fukushima

>> No.2872646

>>2872631
How would you know? The water they pump into the sea could very well contain large amounts of Uranium or Plutonium, since they literally rinse the reactors with it.
Caesium 137 IS one of the byproducts you speak of. 30 years!
Iodine 131 only has a half time of a few days. Sucks though if you drink it with the tap water, cause it is very active. Hello Tokyo.

>> No.2872651

>>2872614
>>2872634
I'm talking about the reactor cores. Only Tepco knows what is going on with them. Every time their is a problem or a spike of radiation or heat in the reactors, they are written off as broken equipment and never reported again.
That bothers me.

>> No.2872656

>>2872651
well, as long as the radiation is contained within the 20 kms, i'm fine.

and to you >>2872646
at the bottom you have the levels of radiation in the water. And this is data specific for tokyo
http://mextrad.blob.core.windows.net/page/13_Tokyo_en.html

>> No.2872660

>>2872568

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9387000/9387395.stm

I went to a talk by Dr Mousseau on Saturday and he emphasized the continued harmful effect that the radiation from Chernobyl is having on the environment. That article is specifically about birds, but he talked about research showing that humans born after the Chernobyl event have smaller brains and less cognitive ability as well. This is mainly the result of radiated sperm in males, and leads to fucked up babies with shorter life expectancies. So yeah, you go live in a radiated area, enjoy your retarded children.

>> No.2872662

>>2872646
And again with the assumptions. There's no proof they're pumping any water into the sea. They would have to be criminally retarded to do that. We ARE talking about Tepco here, yes, but even they can't be that stupid.

And uranium is a solid. It doesn't get airborne by itself. In Chernobyl it took an explosion inside the reactor core to vaporize the uranium and spread. That has not and will not happen here.

>> No.2872669

>>2872662
have you been living under a rock?
they have been dumping water onto the ocean.
They first had some kind of big boat to put it all in, but it was full.

>> No.2872672
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2872672

HAI GUISE REMEMBER ME?

>> No.2872676

>>2872656
That's the problem. Do you really think TEPCO will give out information that shows degradation of any reactor status? They praised the liquid glass solution to the leak earlier this week. However, when their is a 100 sievert leak in the drywall, it's written off. If they are bumping the severity to 7, then I believe that they know more about the reactor conditions than they are letting on.
Right now, 20km. In a month....who knows.

>> No.2872682

>>2872662
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-03/tokyo-electric-s-plan-to-plug-leaking-radioactive-water-wit
h-sawdust-fails.html

what? They have been pumping the water into the sea. google tepco + water.

>> No.2872693

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110319/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake_water

The water in tokyo is safe citizens! Everything is under control. or maybe not.

>> No.2872705

>>2872693
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110319/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake_water

slowpoke.mkv

>> No.2872708

>>2872669
>>2872682
So they are criminally retarded. Consider me told. It is Tepco, after all.

Still, "The potential additional radiation dose to a person eating seaweed or seafood caught near the plant every day for a year would be 0.6 millisievert, the International Atomic Energy Agency said in a statement." is a far fucking cry from the area's seafood from being unsafe for human consumption.

>> No.2872736

>>2872708
normally reporters don't care about that
they just go and ask:
"but does it have radiation???"
"yes, but the levels are so low tha-"
"ok, so radiation, water, everyone's gonna die.... ok, thank you science guy with more brains than me but unfortunatelly you won't get to tell your opinion because I want my article to draw people to it, so I'm just gonna talk about radiation and death"

>> No.2872746

>>2872708
Most people don't know that they consume radioactive food all the time. Unfortunately the emotional arguments seem to win over people far too often on these topics.

>> No.2872748

>>2872736
>>2872708
>NEWS ADVISORY: Radiation leak may exceed amount in Chernobyl accident: TEPCO (12:09)
(Kyodo)

Again, I think they know something that they are not telling the general public. They keep emphasizing how low the radiation is and how everything is under control, then they slip this statement in at the end.

>> No.2872753

>>2872748
Source?

>> No.2872757

>>2872753
http://english.kyodonews.jp/

It's listed at the very top under news advisory. Right below:
>BREAKING NEWS: Kan's adviser Hosono eyed as minister in charge of nuclear crisis (12:13)

>> No.2872765

When does i get my pokemon then? I want a fire one that shots lava and can use the move harden.

>> No.2872769

>>2872757
this is great.
I ran away to sweden when this whole thing started.
not for me, but for my parents.
I just came back yesterday...
and now all this shit again?
I refuse to leave. but my parents are gonna have a horrible time.

>> No.2872784

>>2872748
>I think
and there's the problem.
>I think this
>Well I think this!
>Nuh Uh!
>Yah Huh!

>> No.2872787

Here is my issue.

I think nuclear is 100% safe and a good idea.

But then I think about war, say china and japan go to war, all china has to do it bomb all japan's nuclear reactors and japan is completely 100% fucked.

>> No.2872802

>>2872787
...and then the dirty smoke from the explosions drifts east on the prevailing winds and fucks China, India, South Russia, the middle east, europe and N Africa...

>> No.2872805
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2872805

>> No.2872806

>>2872787
In the event of a China vs. Japan war I'm more worried about the inevitable nuclear missile strikes than the reactors.

Just saiyan'.

>> No.2872822 [DELETED] 
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2872822

>>2872787

Also think of the Nuclear Bombs but the consequences against China would be fuckhuge, they wouldn't dare.

>mfw Thorium does not produce weapons-grade by-products

>> No.2872826

>>2872784
I am merely stating an opinion. I do not expect anyone to go along with it, and I will not fight with blind faith. It just merely looks fishy. Tepco has a pretty miserable track record for proliferating information.
They have made mistakes in handling the accident in the past, and their openness to the Japanese government has sorely been lacking.
It would not shock me that they are privy to information that is not being released to the public in which we are receiving a sugar coated version of events. You can take it at face value or not, but it's simply my opinion. I'm open to hearing yours.

>> No.2872827
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2872827

A bit rough, but it gets the message across.

>> No.2872832

>>2872787
Well, consider the fact that China has nuclear weapons anyways that have a yield of many magnitudes higher than anything in those power plants. What is even more striking is the fact that Japan basically a protectorate of the United States, which means any war that is brought against Japan means a war with America as well. In the event of such a war, the fallout would be at least worse than 100 Chernobyls.

>> No.2872859

>>2872806
>>2872822
>>2872832

Forget who is fighting, pretend its country X and Y.

All you would need to destroy a reactor is a small amount of C4, enough to blow the backup generators and the core.

Imagine a country fight a war while trying to deal with three chernobyls.

It wont kill people as fast as a bomb, but over time it would be just as bad, especially when the country would lack the resources to successfully contain it.

>> No.2872878

>>2872859

I try to think that scientists would know of this being a problem and would hurry themselves to actually shutdown the reactors, don't you think so?

>> No.2872893

>>2872859
One does not simply walk into a nuclear power plant. They're pretty well guarded, doubly so if you're at war I'd expect.

Additionally, these things are rated to survive a 747 crashing into them. It would be no small feat to do enough damage to destroy them from without.

Remember, the only reason Fukushima ever escalated was the poor backup plan -- it survived an earthquake that was, what, 10x it's rated maximum with no issue. What happened was the earthquake cut out it's outside power connection, forcing them to rely on mobile backup generators that were promptly swept into the sea by the tsunami. And then they realized their secondary backup plan couldn't work at all because the plugs didn't match.

Everything beyond that point was a result of the reactors being without power and therefore cooling for several hours. These things go wrong from within, not without.

>> No.2872919

>>2872878
> try to think that scientists would know of this being a problem and would hurry themselves to actually shutdown the reactors, don't you think so?
It isnt that easy.

>>2872893
>>2872893
>One does not simply walk into a nuclear power plant.
I have a hard time believing a few commandos would have trouble. I also seriously doubt they are well guarded. I think like fort knox, they rely on calling a near-by army base for support, but I dont think it would be fast enough.

Its like a dam, hit the key parts on the inside and everything is fucked.

>> No.2872927

>>2872805
sure i will. and this time i will get massive mercury and rad poisoning.

captcha: offive pro-CIA

>> No.2872945

>>2872893
You also have to realize that it would be unexpected, everyone is watching the cities, but all the other shit? Not so much.

Not to mention this hasnt ever been done, because they reactors were only created in the last 50 years.

>> No.2873135

>>2872919
I visited callaway (the reactor in missouri) a couple years ago and noticed a couple of their security systems.

Guards at nuclear power plants have assault rifles and they do drills for incursions. They're probably not as good as a private army, like Blackwater, but I wouldn't try fucking with them. All of the important areas have thick sets of doors blocking them. The control room and the reactor room wouldn't be breached but the backup diesel generators might be vulnerable. Of course, you'd have to bomb the shit out of their normal power lines to knock their power offline, but I doubt you'd be able to do it with security teams there.

>> No.2873157
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2873157

OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD

>> No.2873534

>>2873157
wut?

>> No.2874247

So why was it raised to a seven in the first place?

>> No.2874256

They should rise the ranking of the Kyshtym disaster then
Japan is evacuating everybody who would receive more than 1 mSv per year, which is excessive, as you can find lots of people receiving more background radiation than that with no health effects. Even the Chernobyl evacuation zone wasn't this strict. It's clearly a political decision, anybody who is going to criticise the evacuation scheme for not being extensive enough will have to ascend to a new level of crackpottery.

>> No.2874271

>>2874256
Lord Fap can you manage to ascend to a new level of crackpottery? Without it getting illegal?

>> No.2874282

If 7 is the maximum level possible than doesn't that mean that even if Fukushima had released much more radiation than Chernobyl it would still be classed as a 7?

Why are they emphasizing that it is "the same" as Chernobyl but not giving us a direct comparison between the two, and just making it sound like "all accidents that are lv 7 are the same even though it's the maximum number designation even if it was 100 times worse it would still be a 7."

> Is confused and hopes for /sci/ to enlighten.

>> No.2874293

>>2874282
the Kyshtym disaster received released more radiation than Chernobyl and had some 200 immediate victims but is still INES 6. This is an arbitrary decision by the Japanese authorities.

>> No.2874297

>>2874282
the Kyshtym disaster released more radiation than Chernobyl in one big explosion and had some 200 immediate victims but is still INES 6. This is an arbitrary decision by the Japanese authorities.

>> No.2874334

Ok so the power was off for 50 minutes yesterday due to another quake what effect would this have on the reactors exactly? They seemed to put it up to level 7 after this, is this the reason for the change?

>> No.2874344

I figured this was coming. Containment's breached; it's been closer to Chernobyl than Three Mile Island for a while now.

>> No.2874349

>>2874334
the reactors just got warmer
no increase in radiation release occurred
in fact radiation release had nearly stopped
because cooling water wasn't leaking

>> No.2874353

>>2874349
It's plausible though that they got a new crack leaking to the ocean.

>> No.2874359

Fukushima has currently released about 10% of what Chernobyl did.

Those are the facts.

>> No.2874375

>>2874359
Releasing to the environment != releasing to a slowly leaking concrete pit

>> No.2874402

is the estimate based on the fallout, or the radiation in leaked water? (1 Sv/h vs microsieverts above background radiation)

>> No.2874412

>>2874359
>Fukushima has currently released 10% of the radiation chernobyl did**

**But the vast majority of this was radioactive isotopes that decayed within a matter of hours and are no longer contaminating the environment.

There, I corrected your "fact".