http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29915025/ns/technology_and_science-science/ In light of the above, I have a question: Should humans try to be more humane to the animals we eat than the rest of the animal kingdom is to their food?

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Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:00:31 2011 No.2860903 [Reply] [Original]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29915025/ns/technology_and_science-science/

In light of the above, I have a question:

Should humans try to be more humane to the animals we eat than the rest of the animal kingdom is to their food?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:03:31 2011 No.2860917 if in doubt just don't eat animals with food supplements you now can

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:05:31 2011 No.2860924 Should we try to be more humane? I don't know, but we certainly can. I could imagine that being beneficial in the long run for the inhabitants of the planet.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:05:31 2011 No.2860925 Nope in fact all kids should be forced to kill a lamb/chicken at school and then eat it. Maybe this would stop the young from being faggots.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:06:31 2011 No.2860931 >>2860925 Just tell them to eat it alive. That'll make them real men, even the girls.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:08:31 2011 No.2860942 >>2860903 We should because we are the only species on Earth that feels bad when we don't. We maximize our own utility by being humane.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:10:31 2011 No.2860959

>>2860942
>feelings having any merit
>implying anyone of us knows if we would feel bad about killing animals have we not been raised in the influence of society

I strongly doubt I would give a shit about killing something/someone had I not been shaped by society.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:12:31 2011 No.2860972 >>2860959 Who cares what you think? Peer-reviewed study, or GTFO.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:12:31 2011 No.2860973 I worked in a crab processing plant one summer. I suffered no emotional trauma even though I must have personally stabbed over 10000 crabs in the face. Amazingly it seems that humans can quite easily nit give a fuck.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:13:31 2011 No.2860974

>>2860959
I think many would. Is empathy naturally occuring? The capacity for empathy is certainly there.

If an individual understands what pain is, and what causes it, they could develop the ability to "give a shit about killing something/someone".

I could be wrong about this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:13:31 2011 No.2860979 >>2860972 I replied to an opinion with an opinion. Sure is upset, bro.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:15:31 2011 No.2860988 >>2860979 Sorry, I meant: Who cares what either of you think? Peer-reviewed study, or GTFO.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:15:31 2011 No.2860990 >Should humans try to be more humane to the animals we eat than the rest of the animal kingdom is to their food? >Should To what end?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:16:31 2011 No.2860999 >>2860988 Boy, you're a really good conversationalist, aren't you? But alright, dropping it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:18:31 2011 No.2861011 >>2860990 This. Yeah, we could try to do so, but why would we do that? What is to be gained through it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:19:31 2011 No.2861015 >>2860974 >Is empathy naturally occuring? Of course it is. Humans are naturally extremely social animals, and empathy is evident in all societies.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:19:39 2011 No.2861017 [DELETED]

>>2860959
The "Tabula rasa" theory that you propose isn't supported by modern science. The existance of mirror neurons, however, is. That is to say, empathy is embedded in our biology.

Also,
>>feelings having any merit
Nope. The reason we aren't extinct is because having sex feels good, the reason we have a civilazion now is because it feels better to have shelter and food availble than not, etc.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:22:31 2011 No.2861036

>>2860959
The "Tabula rasa" theory that you propose isn't supported by modern science. The existence of mirror neurons, however, is. That is to say, empathy is embedded in our biology.

Also,
>>feelings having any merit
Nope. The reason we aren't extinct is because having sex feels good, the reason we have a civilization now is because it feels better to have shelter and food available than not, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:23:31 2011 No.2861041 >>2861011 You don't "gain" anything by spending expensive medicine on making dying humans feel comfortable on their deathbed, but you do it anyway.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:23:31 2011 No.2861044

I watched an interview with Peter Singer where he made an interesting observation about the treatment of animals used as food. He basically said that our treatment of our food is a vestige of reiligious culture where non-human animals are considered part of the human dominion. The idea that humans are somehow seperate (or better) from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:23:31 2011 No.2861045

By being more humane you are also typically getting better quality food.

Most meat produced is produced in huge bovine stocks where cows are up to their knees in waste and only eat corn... something that is essentially unedible to cows.

Corn sits in their stomach and causes dangerous bacteria to grow like Salmonella. Because all the cows are shoved in pens and packed in there like a Japanese Businessmen on a train, this causes sickness and bacteria to spread very very quickly through the population.

Most the meat you eat has literally been bleached and then reflavoured with artificial flavouring to kill the horrid bacteria in the meat, and even then many people die in the US from food poisoning that stems back to the living conditions of the animals every week.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:25:31 2011 No.2861056 >>2861045 >many people die in the US from food poisoning that stems back to the living conditions of the animals every week. Woah, that's some serious shit. Could we have a source on that?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:25:31 2011 No.2861059 >>2861041 >didn't answer the question To what end?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:26:31 2011 No.2861060 >>2861045 >implying lots of people die Maybe the cows are standing in the shit you are talking.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:26:31 2011 No.2861062 >>2861041 But you do. For one thing, you can expect the same thing to be done for you when your time comes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:26:31 2011 No.2861065 >>2861059 To lessen suffering.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:27:31 2011 No.2861074 >>2861059 To feel good about yourself. Which is important for your mental health.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:34:31 2011 No.2861102

I see nothing wrong, morally, will killing any thinking entity, even humans, even myself. So long as it doesn't hurt the being or the being's family (which should be taken into consideration), death isn't in and of itself a harmful thing. Quite the opposite, in some ways.

I'm of the opinion that any deed is acceptable so long as it isn't directly harmful. Infidelity, for example, is nothing but pleasurable to all parties so long as the cuckolded person doesn't find out. And if they don't find, nobody hurts. If nobody hurts, and somebody gains, do it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:35:31 2011 No.2861114 I believe we should be more "humane" towards every sentient being. I take care of animals and try to not eat them unless it is necessary.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:37:31 2011 No.2861128

That we hurt and kill sentient organisms for something as transient as gustatory pleasure is to me not much different than killing Jews for lampshades. The cow and Jew is as capable of feeling pain; other things--intelligence, say--mean nothing here. To quote Bentham: "The question is not Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:38:31 2011 No.2861136
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>>2860903
> If crabs are given medicine — anesthetics or analgesics — they appear to feel relieved

If 50 million Americans cannot afford healthcare, why are we getting crabs high?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:39:31 2011 No.2861142 >>2860903 But I can't eat the gingerbread man, he'll die!

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:39:31 2011 No.2861147

I'm not a huge fan of trying to justify killing by calling it "humane". In my eyes it's sort of like trying to hide the fact of what you're doing. It's why I'm against lethal injection as a death penalty method; people see it as more humane, but whenever one gets botched people are horrified, like it's a reminder of what's actually going on.

Still, yeah...the animals should be killed rather painlessly

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:40:31 2011 No.2861150 >>2861114 This. Being nice doesn't hurt you, but humans function best when they ingest both meat and plants. They evolved to be omnivore after all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:41:31 2011 No.2861161 >>2861136 BY GEORGE, SCIENTISTS ACTUALLY FIGURED OUT THAT NEUROSYSTEMS ARE SIMILAR FOR MOST ANIMALS? JFGSDJ:KGLSDFJGSFD GIVE THESE GUYS MEDALS.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:45:31 2011 No.2861186

>>2861150
We are omnivorous because of gradual changes in diet over long periods of time. What with the increase in vegetarianism, we could be seeing the start of evolution in a different direction.

It would probably be a good thing if we did evolve into plant eaters.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:46:31 2011 No.2861195

>>2860903

Not sure, as animals kill other animals way more brutally than we do.

see for example crocodiles. They take their victims under water and let them drown while having open wounds. Some spiders have poison that render their victims unable to move and dissolve their inner organs slowly.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:47:10 2011 No.2861200 [DELETED]

P1: Lack of pain is preferable to pain.

P2: To be dead is to be incapable of feeling pain.

P3: To live is to be capable of feeling pain.

C1: Life is preferable to death.

P4: We ought to propagate lack of pain over pain.

P5: By killing people painlessly, one propagates lack of pain over pain.

C2: We ought to kill people painlessly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:47:31 2011 No.2861198 >>2861186 There's no natural selection killing off meat eaters so barring apocalyptic overpopulation on the order of 20 billion or so people we aren't going to evolve into vegetarians. Culture might change but humans will still be omnivorous animals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:51:31 2011 No.2861220 >>2861195 Yeah, well at least their victims were not bred to be food. Chimps hunt monkeys and start to tear pieces off to eat while they are still alive.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:52:31 2011 No.2861224 >>2861200 >C1: Life is preferable to death. Doesn't follow.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:54:31 2011 No.2861231

>>2861195
1. They must do so to survive. We don't.

2. That we defer to the eating habits of other animals on the basis it being right seems awfully suspect, since we do not extend such deference to matters of shelter or mating. Other animals rape, it is true; but this does not make rape okay for us. Other animals lack housing, but this does not make us more inclined to live naked lives in forests. We are different from other creatures in a great many ways, and we accept this, yet many carnivores will tell we should aspire to be more like those creatures by eating meat. Why not aspire to be like them by raping or living in forests?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:55:31 2011 No.2861234 >>2861198 Im aware that natural selection would have no influence. But if culture changes, and animals are eaten less and less, it's possible that humans will evolve into vegetarians.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:55:31 2011 No.2861237 >>2861224 yeah, I borked it. deleted.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:55:31 2011 No.2861238 >>2861220 Well... isn´t every animal somehow "bred" to be either eaten or die (and then be eaten)? I thought that´s what life was about.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:55:31 2011 No.2861239 >>2861195 What does that have to do with anything, though? Humans have developed empathy. Crocodiles and spiders, as far as I know, have not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:57:31 2011 No.2861245 As long as killing it serves a bigger purpose like supplying food or reducing a plague, we should forget about our empathy. If it's only for enjoyment and to see the animal suffer, then we should try to minimize the slaughter.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:58:31 2011 No.2861251

>>2861231

> 1. They must do so to survive. We don't.

Omnivores need to. And yes, even we get symptoms of malnutrition if we don´t eat meat for several years (i have 15 years in mind, not sure though). Especially kids.

> Other animals rape, it is true; but this does not make rape okay for us.

Yes, because we have a society, which wouldn´t be possible with accepting rape. This argument also holds for the other points.
Eating meat is compatible with having a society.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 20:59:31 2011 No.2861254

>>2861234
THAT IS NOT HOW EVOLUTION WORKS, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Now that I'm done raging, the only way that "humans would become" vegetarians is if all of a sudden a MASSIVE mutation happened in which it was poisonous to eat meat. Since meat is so plentiful and humans are efficient at getting energy from both plants and animals, it will never happen. De-evolution is impossible. Just because something is absent from humans for a long time, doesn't mean that they will change. Evolution is random. Traits that are best for survival stay. Since Omnivores can eat tons of shit, it will not go out of style. It is the end game system of life.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:00:31 2011 No.2861258

>>2861238
No. Prey is not bred to be the best prey for the predator. It would be more accurate to say that they are bred to escape or avoid being food. All animals are "bred" to eat, and (if they have to) avoid being eaten.

Also, breeding usually refers to domestic productions, not productions that occur in the wild.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:02:31 2011 No.2861262 >>2861258 So we are "bred" to eat, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:03:31 2011 No.2861270 OH POOR LITTLE CRAB LET ME INJECT YOU WITH SOME DRUGS SO YOU DON'T FEEL IT WHEN I BOIL YOU, SMASH YOU WITH A HAMMER AND DEVOUR YOUR REMAINS, AS I WILL DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR FAMILY.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:05:31 2011 No.2861276 File: 85 KB, 500x500, crab1302391981954.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] When is daddy coming home today?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:09:31 2011 No.2861287 inb4 plants feel pain too I wish, that way all the idiots in this thread will be left with nothing to eat. I mean, it's ok to treat animals nicely, but when their time comes a little momentarily pain has no real consequences.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:13:31 2011 No.2861307

>>2861254
Really? Care to clarify for me?

I had thought that habits influence the evolution of organisms to some degree. Carnivores probably can evolve into herbivores (and vice versa). I think they would have had to at some point in the earths history.

If the average human diet became veg why couldn't a mutation for better processing of plant food be selected and spread through the population? I'm talking about a long period of time where this change occurs gradually. Why would meat have to suddenly be poisonous?

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:15:31 2011 No.2861313

>>2861251
>Omnivores need to.

I have seen no such evidence of this. I know that within the U.S., vegetarians outlive meat-eaters by a few years on average, though this might have other causes (chemicals in the meat, amount of meat eaten, etc.). Even so, there is no evidence to show that meat is essential for human nourishment. One of the great things about omnivores is precisely the fact that they can eat vegetation when meat isn't available and vice versa. Moreover, B12, a nutrient in certain types of meat that some claim is important to proper nourishment, can be imbibed through cheap and readily available pills. Of course, vegetarians I know don't take B12 and they get along very well.

>because we have a society, which wouldn´t be possible with accepting rape.

That's a post facto justification. We know that societies in the past have thrived on rape as a social construct (Spartan wives were declared as such through the process of men entering their homes and "conquering" them through rape), so it's possible to build societies around such things. It's also possible to live without clothes and have a society. You dwell in and experience one type of civilization and assume after the fact (post facto) that civilization-types must therefore adhere to that one type, a common fallacy.

Of course, this is mostly beside the point. The actual point, from the vegetarian point of view, is that the objection "other animals do it, therefore it is right" is fallacious to the point of farce. I'm not even a vegetarian and I recognize this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:15:31 2011 No.2861315 >>2861262 Do you need to ask? We eat dont we?

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:21:31 2011 No.2861335

>>2861313

> can be imbibed through cheap and readily available pills

There is the problem. Of course this is possible. I for one won´t make my life depend on chemicals. The period over which vegetarians would show symptoms is very long. That´s why it mostly isn´t noticed or interpreted as coming from something else. Not sure if it was B12.

> That's a post facto justification.

Correction: _our_ society. As defined by Hobbes, it is to prevent us from having to live in fear, which includes the fear of being raped.

> the objection "other animals do it, therefore it is right" is fallacious to the point of farce

I wasn´t exactly saying that. I only pointed out animals are more cruel when getting their food than we are and that i´m not sure on what to think of it.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:22:31 2011 No.2861338

>>2861307
Your thought of evolution is similar to the other guy that darwin slammed with his theory. Other guy thought that animals evolved because they did what was necessary to survive, and that giraffes stretched their necks so much that their children had stretched necks. Evolution is random and traits that help things live for longer get passed on. Vegetables only isn't a good trait, so it won't catch on.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:22:31 2011 No.2861341 >>2861315 So we have to be "predators" and get food, which justifies us eating meat just as it does in the case of animals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:22:31 2011 No.2861342 ITT: FAGGOTS!!! Look at the tsunami that just hit japan. Earth doesn tgive a fuck about us. Infact it doesn't give a fuck about anything. I am going to go boil alive a crab for every post in this thread.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:24:31 2011 No.2861349

>>2861313
Hey, did you know that gazelles and shit ate meat when plants weren't available? Also, meats have a lot of fat and are filling while plants aren't. Sure, now adays, meat isn't necessary to live because you have vitamins and shit, but if you didn't take the vitamins, plants wouldn't be enough.

TL;DR omnivores are built to eat both plants and animals naturally. Failing to do so would cause overpopulation, so yes, MEAT EATERS GONNA EAT MEAT

>>	Captain Olimar !!ooztLPjQLnv Sat Apr 9 21:25:31 2011 No.2861356 >>2861342 That is the most retarded logic I have encountered today. Bravo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:26:31 2011 No.2861359 >>2861342 +1

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:27:31 2011 No.2861367
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>>2861186
>some sissy skinny faggots who eat leaves are too sissy to eat delicious muscle building meat
>implying this means every human is going to evolve into a herbivore now

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:28:31 2011 No.2861368 File: 212 KB, 1024x681, gir vince.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861276 >implying baby crabs give a fuck about their parents any time after coming out of their eggs

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:32:31 2011 No.2861386 >>2861368 /sci/ - cold at heart

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:34:31 2011 No.2861400
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>>2861386
no I'm not trying to be a douche but there are animals that EAT THEIR FUCKING PARENTS if they hang around long enough, and animals who eat their fucking kids if they hang around long enough, lions who kill and eat the cubs of other lions, snakes are born and have to run off before momma snake makes dinner out of them instead of for them. Sorry but maternity and paternity instincts are confined only to certain species, and only for varying amounts of time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:38:31 2011 No.2861414 >>2861386 hey femanon, tits or gtfo

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:38:31 2011 No.2861421

>>2861367
I wasnt trying to imply that it will happen. My immense ignorance of evolution aside, I was trying to point out that increasing popularity in vegetarianism isnt something that should be disregarded.

>>2861338
You say evolution is random, but isn't it just the genetic variations that are random. Variations that are naturally selected arent considered random are they?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:39:31 2011 No.2861426 Evolutionarily speaking, we are turning into carnivores.

>>	Max Planck !!jT+l3v7Nbt6 Sat Apr 9 21:39:31 2011 No.2861428 >>2861386 >implying the truth isnt a bitch >implying Science cares for anything other than observable truth.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:39:31 2011 No.2861429 File: 44 KB, 460x288, protest-peta-reute_1496741c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] ITT: Bitches who haven't read Peter Singer ethics and live an ethically imbalanced and inconsistent life. Seriously. Girls dig vegetarians and vegans.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:40:31 2011 No.2861431

>>2861414

> implying i´m a "femanon"

Cumdumpster is the correct term, newfag. I´m male.

>>2861400

And? The image obviously resembles a human-like child in a crab body. You could as well have said "lol crabs don´t have these kind of eyes" or something.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:40:31 2011 No.2861433
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>>2861400
oh and also my point is that once baby crabs are born, they don't know or care about the welfare of their parents, their only worry is survival.

If the baby crab were to encounter the body of his dead father/mother later in life, he would begin to consume it without a single regret.

I think life is all about balances, too far to the left or too far to the right and everything gets fucked up.

Sure, we can't be gun-toting savages that rape and kill the entire earth with nuclear bombs and torture little puppies to death, but then we also shouldn't lean so far the other way that we will cry if we step on the shadow that a sunflower makes.

Honestly, this is the way it's worked for years; animals get raised, animals die, animals end up on a plate.

picture related.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:42:31 2011 No.2861439 >>2861433 Wow, i never knew posting baby animals is such an epic trollbait for /sci/.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:43:31 2011 No.2861446 ITT faggy scifags try to find a meaning to life as their nhilistic atheism does not fit with their love of faggy cuddley toys. BAAWWWW

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:43:31 2011 No.2861448 File: 73 KB, 755x1255, troll i troll u2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861439 not even being trolled, just expressing my views on this thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:43:31 2011 No.2861450 >>2861276 LOL. An anthropomorphised juvenile crab. That's just silly.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:43:31 2011 No.2861451

>>2861421
Wrong. You are assuming that
>If you don't use your penis, it will fall off

If humans only eat vegetables for 5k plus years, it won't change the fact that they will still be able to eat meat.

>You say evolution is random but only genetic variation is random

no shit sherlock. I was making it simple for you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:44:31 2011 No.2861454 >>2861450 > anthropomorphised That´s the word i was looking for for at least the last 10 minutes. Thanks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:44:31 2011 No.2861458 >>2861276 I'll attack its weak spot for massive damage

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:44:31 2011 No.2861459 >>2861451 Explain lactose intolerance.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:45:31 2011 No.2861461

>>2861433
This is incredibly fucking stupid to compare animal and human nature.

If we were gun toting fuckers killing and raping everything, humans would say that's totally out of sync and fucked.

If we were life-respecting vegetarians who are kind and gentle to the world, people would say that's progressed and enlightened.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:46:31 2011 No.2861468 >>2861461 >progressed and enlightened. no, we'd be PUSSIES

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:47:31 2011 No.2861477 I'll be more humane when other animals are humane when they eat? Deal? Deal.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:47:31 2011 No.2861478 >>2861461 I'd like to study you, man that was born without balls. Your existence intrigues me. Were you born without balls, or were they cut off at some point in the past?

>>	Captain Olimar !!ooztLPjQLnv Sat Apr 9 21:47:31 2011 No.2861481 Who cares? We'll have meat-vats in a decade or so.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:47:31 2011 No.2861482

>>2861468
"Although I have been prevented by outward circumstances from observing a strictly vegetarian diet, I have long been an adherent to the cause in principle. Besides agreeing with the aims of vegetarianism for aesthetic and moral reasons, it is my view that a vegetarian manner of living by its purely physical effect on the human temperament would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind."

- Albert Einstein

You sure about that? Ask Uncle Al what he thinks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:49:31 2011 No.2861486 >>2861482 I wipe my ass with what uncle al thinks remember, this is a man that couldn't speak until what age? sure, he was a brilliant physicist, but that doesn't mean he had all of the answers

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:49:31 2011 No.2861487

>>2861459
That's called a bad genetic trait my friend. Same as allergies.

Fun fact: Did you know that some miscarriages are due to the fact that the baby was allergic to water or other organic materials?

So are you saying that eventually, all humans will die off because they will become allergic to themselves? Because, humans are meat you know?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:49:31 2011 No.2861488 >>2861478 >>2861468 Boring ad hom. >>2861477 Boring appeal to nature. Huh. You're actually dumber than I thought, /sci/. /shrug

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:49:31 2011 No.2861490 >>2861459 It's a portion of the population that couldn't digest cow milk in the first place, whose genes passed on in spite of this because it isn't such a big deal for their survival.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:49:31 2011 No.2861492 >>2861482 Appeal to authority.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:50:31 2011 No.2861496

>>2861451
Still a bit confused (yes, I'm stupid so help me out for fucks sake). Explain to me how many cave-dwelling creatures lack eyes. Is it that they no longer have a need of light sensing organs, so a variation with less developed eyes might be selected because the creature is better off not expending energy on the development and use of the eyes? How is that different from developing eating habits?

Fuck, I need to a read a book.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:50:31 2011 No.2861497 >>2861482 Einstein was a physicist not a physician. Fuck him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:50:31 2011 No.2861499 File: 3 KB, 168x198, 12476859923133.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861461 But humans are animals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:51:02 2011 No.2861506 File: 111 KB, 704x530, vegan_bodybuilder_kristopher_flannery.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861367 Vegan bodybuilders would disagree with you on that chum

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:51:31 2011 No.2861502 >>2861487 > That's called a bad genetic trait my friend. Same as allergies. ahahahaha. no. Translation of your statement: > i haven´t a goddman clue about evolution

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:51:31 2011 No.2861505 File: 41 KB, 760x571, gir simpsons.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861482 >implying being a great physicist makes you the undisputed final voice in all topics under the sun

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:52:31 2011 No.2861509 File: 131 KB, 500x333, GIRLS 4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861506 >bodybuilder >still looks like a faggot yep must be a vegan

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:53:31 2011 No.2861513

>>2861487
>>2861490

lol. Lactose-intolerance was intended by nature actually. It sets in as soon as babies would stop getting milk from their mother.
Since humans started to use milk from animals as a food source, we "learned" to preserve the ability to digest milk for our whole life.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:53:31 2011 No.2861514

>>2861496
They don't all lack eyes, most just lack good eyesight, or have eyes but are blind. Yes, its because they don't need to see. Also, you don't need to read a book, you need to use a bit of your brain more, with some good old critical thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

You could seriously answer a lot of your questions if you did so.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:53:31 2011 No.2861517 >> increasing popularity in vegetarianism sauce for this? u have to admit being veg was copied along with yoga from hindus.. so gtfo ..

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:54:31 2011 No.2861520 File: 9 KB, 180x256, 1239157541906.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861488 >opinions at random >I don't like their opinions so they must be stupid

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:54:31 2011 No.2861521 VEGETABLES HAVE FEELINGS AND THEY FEEL PAIN YOU IMMORAL FAGGOTS. VEGETARIANS ARE MURDERERS. STOP EATING THE PLANTS YOU FUCKTARDS.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:54:31 2011 No.2861524 >Hurr Durr Einstein was only a physicist I am showing what is considered "enlightened" not what's healthy. Einstein was pretty "enlightened" and most of sci can relate to him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:56:31 2011 No.2861532 >>2861514 No, to be fair, he has a good point. I don't know how fast humans would evolve, but if humans switched to a vegetarian diet eventually they would adapt a digestive system that would better digest plants.. and probably worse at digesting meat.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:56:31 2011 No.2861533 >>2861513 >It sets in as soon as babies would stop getting milk from their mother Yeah, you gotta wonder what happened to those babies that got lactose intolerance WHILE they were being breastfed. Need a hint?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:56:31 2011 No.2861535 Vegans usually have small penises.. i know from experience

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:57:31 2011 No.2861541
File: 51 KB, 480x414, facepalm5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2861524
no I know he was a brilliant man, and he was "enlightened" but I don't consider him the foremost authority in every topic under the sun. Just because he said it didn't make it so.

>>2861521
HURRR ALSO WHILE WE'RE AT IT LET'S NOT LOOK AT THE SHADOWS THAT PLANTS MAKE THEY HAVE FEELINGS TOOO DURRRRR

damn, I don't like the route our society is taking.
We're turning into pansies, afraid of a little pain, afraid of a little in-your-face reality.

We're becoming sterile, afraid of a little dirt and muck.

Seriously humanity, picture related.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:58:31 2011 No.2861547

>>2861533
No, buddy, you don't get it.

Lactose Intolerance is the norm for the human race. We're not talking about a random birth defect.

Humans naturally lost the ability to digest milk properly after infancy. Humans who raised livestock like cattle and goats and such evolved the ability to digest lactose. There are still many humans who are lactose intolerant to some degree, and it's not because of a bad mutation. It's because they aren't descended from one of those populations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 21:59:31 2011 No.2861556 No, but seriously. We'll have cloned meat sooner or later, who cares.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:00:31 2011 No.2861558 >>2861533 > implying that´s relevant. They shat and farted a lot and got other things to eat.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:00:31 2011 No.2861559 File: 17 KB, 429x360, 20060919-BORAT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861556 >implying some retarded animal rights vegan faggot group won't be against that too

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:01:31 2011 No.2861566 >>2861541 You sound dumb.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:01:31 2011 No.2861567 >>2861559 as long as there's something on this planet and humans are on this planet, some faggot is going to find a reason to complain about it

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:02:31 2011 No.2861569 >>2861559 Oh, I'm sure there will be someone. But we'll be eating nonthinking nonfeeling meat. It'll be great.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:02:31 2011 No.2861571 >>2861547 Like asians for example. In china 99% of the population can´t digest milk, because they didn´t use animal milk as a food source.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:02:31 2011 No.2861573 >>2861559 Most of them are FUNDING it, dumbfuck.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:02:31 2011 No.2861575

>>2861514
I know that they dont all lack eyes.

Thanks for the tip. I'll try to use this "critical thinking" you write of.

>>2861451
>If humans only eat vegetables for 5k plus years, it won't change the fact that they will still be able to eat meat.

How about 500k years? 1mil? Care to explain this? Why is this statement absolute? I realize that it is unlikely, but is it impossible? Could humans change to the point where there is little value of meat in the diet?

My brain hurts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:03:31 2011 No.2861577 >>2861573 and I'm telling you someone will have a problem with it. inb4 "NO CLONED MEAT, CLONED MEAT IS MURDER, CLONES HAVE FEELINGS TOO" picketing

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:04:31 2011 No.2861585 File: 84 KB, 500x432, Beckham and Green.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2861575 it can happen but we're going to lose a lot of fuckers down the road if we don't rely on supplements, and if we rely on supplements then we won't evolve at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:04:31 2011 No.2861586 >>2861575 >Could humans change to the point where there is little value of meat in the diet? Of course they can, this guy is just being obtuse.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:04:31 2011 No.2861587 File: 57 KB, 474x501, 1242440845777.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Fuck cloned meat, i like the real deal, im not happy unless an animal dies to feed me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:05:31 2011 No.2861590 >>2861587 I like you

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:05:31 2011 No.2861594

>>2861547

I get it, it is you who is looking at it from the wrong angle.

Start with apes. They don't have cattle. So lactose intolerance is not an issue, but also not an advantage. Fast forward to when our ancestors start to use cattle. Lactose intolerance becomes somewhat of a disadvantage. Some of them aren't lactose intolerant, some of them are. Those who are just get their nutrients from somewhere else. I don't know what proportion of the population was lactose intolerant at the time, but you get the picture.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:11:31 2011 No.2861631

>>2861594
>Fast forward to when our ancestors start to use cattle. Lactose intolerance becomes somewhat of a disadvantage. Some of them aren't lactose intolerant, some of them are.

When humans started to raise cattle, almost 100% of humans were lactose intolerant. It was not in our genes. Milk was not a food we encountered.

We only evolved lactose TOLERANCE after we raised cattle, and only populations that regularly consumed dairy products (like cheese and yogurt etc) evolved lactose tolerance.

If we took a group of humans that ate only plants (by choice or necessity), they would eventually evolve the ability to digest cellulose and other undigestable or poorly digested plant matter.

As our digestive systems became more herbivore, it'd be less suited to evolving meat.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:13:31 2011 No.2861639

>>2861631
>If we took a group of humans that ate only plants (by choice or necessity), they would eventually evolve the ability to digest cellulose and other undigestable or poorly digested plant matter.

Er, assuming they don't reproduce with outside populations that do regularly consume meat.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:14:31 2011 No.2861646 >>2861586 not everyone who eats meat is obtuse, if you eat it in moderation you can easily maintain a healthy wait.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:15:31 2011 No.2861652 >>2861646 You're funny.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:15:31 2011 No.2861654

>>2861631
>>2861575
>100%
But thats wrong you retard

Also, you guys are totally missing the points. It's not just the issue that HURR ONE IS PLANT, ONE IS ANIMAL.

It's that everything that we eat, we get energy and certain minerals that we need to function. It doesn't matter if its a plant or a fucking animal. You guys need to look at the goddamn table of elements for once in your life. This is what everything in the universe is made of, fucking deal with it. Ditching a way to correctly turn things into energy is not how evolution works. Just because humans evolved to be able to drink milk, doesn't mean that they lost the ability to eat plants or do anything else.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:16:31 2011 No.2861659 >>2861654 He said almost and he´s totally right. read wiki or something.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:21:31 2011 No.2861698

>>2861654
Oh my god, you are driving me crazy now.

>100%
>But thats wrong you retard

Wikipedia (hurr, but there are sorces!): The ability to digest lactose into adulthood (lactase persistence) would have only been useful to humans after the invention of animal husbandry and the domestication of animal species that could provide a consistent source of milk. Hunter-gatherer populations before the Neolithic revolution were overwhelmingly lactose intolerant,[44][45] as are modern hunter-gatherers. Genetic studies suggest that the oldest mutations associated with lactase persistence only reached appreciable levels in human populations in the last ten thousand years.[46][47]

# ^ Swaminathan, N. 2007. Not Milk? Neolithic Europeans Couldn't Stomach the Stuff. Scientific American.
# ^ Malmstrom, H., Linderholm, A., Liden, K., Stora, J., Molnar, P., Holmlund, G., Jakkobson, M., Gotherstrom, A. 2010. High frequency of lactose intolerance in a prehistoric hunter-gatherer population in northern Europe. BMC Evolutionary Biology 10: 89.
# ^ Coelho, M., Luiselli, D., Bertorelle, G., Lopes, A. I., Seixas, S., Destro-Bisol, G. and Rocha, J. 2002. Microsatellite variation and evolution of human lactase persistence. Human Genetics 117(4): 329–339.
# ^ Bersaglieri T., Sabeti P. C., Patterson N., Vanderploeg T., Schaffner S. F., Drake J. A., Rhodes M., Reich D. E. and Hirschhorn J. N. 2004. Genetic signatures of strong recent positive selection at the lactase gene. American Journal of Human Genetics 74(6): 1111–20.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:22:31 2011 No.2861699

>>2861659
More like a large number, not 100%. Also using asians for an argument is stupid, they have immune systems of a fucking child. Colds are dangerous to them. It's not an issue of them evolving to just drink milk, its their immune systems that needed a jump start, and they still need one. They are only perpetuating their shitty immune systems by having so many germophobe qualities.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:22:31 2011 No.2861704 >>2861654 Yeah, animal stuff (and plant stuff) contains a bunch of stuff that our bodies use, but the ability to digest certain things can still change.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:22:31 2011 No.2861707

>>2861698
>>2861654
ALSO:
>Just because humans evolved to be able to drink milk, doesn't mean that they lost the ability to eat plants or do anything else.

Lactase was the only part of milk that was undigestable. One sugar. Notice how, for example, humans cannot digest cellulose like cattle can? Cats can't digest plants? Cows can't digest meat?

You do know that chemical reactions are required to digest things, right? We don't just disintigrate food and take the individual atoms. We use chemicals in our digestive systems to break down proteins and compounds into usuable bits (or we let bacteria do it for us, and use their wastes as nutrients).

Herbivores lack the digestive systems to digest meat. Carnivores lack the digestive systems to digest plants. Omnivores, such as humans, have a digestive system that can digest some plants but not all, some meat proteins but not all.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:24:31 2011 No.2861721

>>2861704
Yes it could change, but not for the better. Protein is used for brain functioning, only eating plants is full retard. Also considering chicken and plants not meat is derp. Also, the point once again, is not if its plant or animal, its certain compounds that humans need to function 100%. Only eating plants is stupid. The chance of humans fully evolving to not eat animals is as valid as all of the air turning into wood randomly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:26:31 2011 No.2861735 >>2861721 >The chance of humans fully evolving to not eat animals is as valid as all of the air turning into wood randomly. What if our technology allows us to? Still not valid?

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:27:31 2011 No.2861742

>>2861721
>The chance of humans fully evolving to not eat animals is as valid as all of the air turning into wood randomly.

What? that makes no sense. Sure, it'd take an advanced diet that doesn't naturally occur in one place, but if we REALLY needed to, if for some reason all animals but humans died on earth, we would figure out a way to make a functioning diet out of plants.. and we'd eventually evolve into it.

I'm not saying it's better (or worse) or that we should (or shouldn't!) do it, but if we adopted a vegetarian diet we would EVENTUALLY evolve into it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:27:31 2011 No.2861743 >>2861735 Why would technology do something so stupid is a better question.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:29:31 2011 No.2861752 >>2861699 > Also using asians for an argument is stupid, they have immune systems of a fucking child. Colds are dangerous to them. wtfamireadingthere.jpg racists on /sci/?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:29:31 2011 No.2861753 >>2860917 I would like to start up a dietary supplement company. I will have protean pills for vegans that are (secretly) made of ground up kittens and semen.

>>	Anonymous of Hong Kong !hYEQo0sIHs Sat Apr 9 22:29:31 2011 No.2861756 Are we not humane already? What animal isn't killed as quickly as possible?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:30:31 2011 No.2861765 >>2861721 >Plants have no protein. >Beans don't exist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:33:31 2011 No.2861785 >>2861756 Arguably. There are standards, but they aren't always followed. Factory farming doesn't look pretty. Also: Kosher slaughter.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:34:31 2011 No.2861787

>>2861752
Watch anime
and watch the news a bit. Japanese have shit immune systems.

>>2861765
>Implying protein is the only important thing from plants that humans need

Also this entire thread is stupid. The more valid thing to do would be to make sure that humans ONLY NEED TO EAT MEAT. Guess what you vegans are doing? Lowering the amount of delicious oxygen producing plants. Why VEGANS, WHY? VEGANS ARE THE CANCER KILLING THE EARTH, DOWN WITH VEGETARIANS.

>>	Anonymous of Hong Kong !hYEQo0sIHs Sat Apr 9 22:35:31 2011 No.2861793 >>2861787 That's dumb, Asians are paranoid about health because we live in dense population areas. That's why everyone's wearing a surgical mask. If anything, Asians retain larger thymus glands through neoteny.

Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:36:31 2011 No.2861800

Is there enough farmland on earth to support every human being having a vegetarian diet? Livestock is usually able to eat plants that cannot be digested by humans (as mentioned above by anon), and human-edible plants require richer soil. Livestock feed can grow in poorer soil conditions.. But beef is fed corn so I guess it's a moot point.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:37:31 2011 No.2861805 >>2861787 >>2861765 >Implying protein is the only important thing from plants that humans need >Implying I even implied that; trying to make yourself look like less of an idiot is hard eh?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:38:31 2011 No.2861813 >>2861787 > Watch anime And you lol at our arguments. Please...

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:39:31 2011 No.2861826 >>2861813 Yes I watch cartoons, problem. You forget how I said the news?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:40:31 2011 No.2861830 >>2861805 Shut up planet killer. Go destory some more oxygen for us why don't ya?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:40:31 2011 No.2861837 >>2861793 You're wearing a surgical mask?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:41:31 2011 No.2861840 >>2861826 > Yes I watch cartoons, problem. lrn2read. You were using anime as an argument. Yes, you seem to have a problem.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:43:31 2011 No.2861851 >>2861840 >Implying that cultures don't put realistic aspects into their entertainment How's that shallow minded thinking working for ya?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:44:31 2011 No.2861861 >>2861851 facepalm.jpg I think i was trolled enough now. Have a nice day.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 9 22:45:31 2011 No.2861869 >>2861861 buttdevistated.

Anonymous Sun Apr 10 07:30:31 2011 No.2863707

I think that this topic begs the question of "eat meat, but only if you know the conditions that it comes from". I can tell you right now, I'd never eat meat in which it comes from facility XYZ from meat corp. america. Hormone fed, terrible living conditions, shit meat. I want meat that's the real deal, from an animal that's had an existence that wasn't pathetic and is pumped full of antibiotics and hormones to keep the thing alive.

Go read up on where your fast food meat comes from. Dairy cows that are pumped full of hormones, until complete exhaustion, and then slaughtered for your shitty fast food.

If anything, you people should demand having quality food, and the meat your eating sadly is shit. Guess what, you are what you eat.

Anonymous Sun Apr 10 09:15:31 2011 No.2863977

why is it news that other animals feel pain? i've always assumed animals feel pain but i still eat them. it doesn't really factor into it. i'm not trying to sound hardcore i-don't-give-a-fuck but as long as there isn't excessive amounts of pain i think we're ok.

and when you think about it, the pain of whatever kills you in the end probably isn't even the most pain you'll ever experience. i fucked my ankle up pretty bad and that hurt like shit for fucking weeks. if i had my throat cut or had a bolt shot through my head that wouldn't even be close to the same amount of pain.

tl;dr: it's ok if we're not inflicting huge amounts of pain because everything feels pain at some point and it's not that big a deal.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 10 09:40:31 2011 No.2864048 >>2860903 >implying that in a "natural" world animals don't eat humans.

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/sci/ - Science & Math