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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2859001 No.2859001 [Reply] [Original]

Tell me, /sci/

If different breeds of dogs are judged on their intelligence, obedience, strength and other characteristics associated with that breed, why is it wrong to do the same with different races of humans?

>> No.2859006

Holy fuck, I was just sitting on the toilet thinking the same thing.

Stop hiding in my toilet and stealing my ideas, OP.

>> No.2859011

Because politically correct faggots.

>> No.2859014

Because humans are more complicated than dogs.

The genome of individual Africans can vary more between other Africans than it does with non-Africans.

There are still many black people more intelligent than many white people so it is best to judge on an individual, case by case basis.

>> No.2859021

Because we do better as a species if treating everyone equal is the default position.

>> No.2859022

>>2859014
>There are still many black people more intelligent than many white people so it is best to judge on an individual, case by case basis.

Science deals with averages, not outliers.

>> No.2859024

>>2859021
Proof required.

>> No.2859030
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2859030

>>2859024
It's self-evident and obvious and axiomatic.

>> No.2859039

>>2859030
>>2859024

No, history has demonstrated this. Countries that value the equal rights of people have people who are less miserable. And valuing equal rights presupposes the default position of equality.

>> No.2859045

>>2859024
Read some John Rawls.

People in the original position under a veil of ignorance would, according to logic, decide on the most equal conditions.

>> No.2859046
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2859046

>>2859022
When culture and economics are taken into account, it more than explains why many blacks have a less refined IQ than whites.

It's more difficult to refine your IQ when your culture shames book smart kids and advocates crime. The lack of economic opportunity and quality schooling for such jobs is another problem that inhibits blacks from becoming more academic as well.

If blacks were raised in a quality culture with good opportunities like many whites, I would hypothesize they'd turn out much the same.

>> No.2859050

so much eugenics up in this bitch?

>> No.2859051

>Science deals with averages, not outliers.
agree

OP, people are dumb with their morals...
each race had advantages and disadvantages...
In my opinion, black ppl for example are better in physical activities, but not as good when using their brain

>> No.2859052

>>2859046

I agree. Your intelligence is a dynamic system. You can improve it with education and discipline, and culture determines largely how much you value the things that can lead you to improving your intelligence.

>> No.2859058
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2859058

>> No.2859054 [DELETED] 

Because dogs don't buy stuff by themselves.

Why kill niggers if you own KFC?

Capitalism is responsible for equal rights to everyone so that everyone can buy and sell and keep spinning the wheel.

>> No.2859072

We do, it's called the mating process. Women aren't so good at it though.

>> No.2859077

>>2859039
I call shenanigans on that until I see some data. How could you even estimate the average happiness of ancient societies?

>> No.2859080

>>2859058

Technology correlates more strongly with trade than with intelligence, and most iron age societies practice very little trade.

>> No.2859102
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2859102

>>2859058

>> No.2859104 [DELETED] 

Exactly.
If niggers are stupid, criminals subhuman scum who should be lynched on site, why can't we tell the world and the scientific community?

>> No.2859112

>>2859046
holy shit you made sense without being racist
am i on the wrong website

>> No.2859121

>>2859058
The Egyptians weren't black,

>> No.2859125

You can improve your intelligence to a certain degree, but 60 to 80% of your adult intelligence is hereditary. So yes, access to a good education has a huge effect, but lets not kid ourselves here, no amount of education could possibly make everyone equally smart.

This says nothing about LEGAL equality, btw: The doctrine of liberalism was developed DESPITE the then-widely accepted existence of differences between men and women, between races, and between classes. The 'natural instinct' of all pre-liberal societies is to have explicitly UNequal treatment for different people.

>> No.2859127

>>2859077

I can't. But I think you need to look at more modern times. We can estimate the well being of people in countries today with different values of equal rights. I'm not a sociologist so I don't have actual data on hand. But eventually it comes to be obvious enough. Similar to how you know this boulder is heavier than this pebble even if you don't know their masses.

>> No.2859130

>>2859052

Forgot mah link
>>2859125

>> No.2859136

>>2859125
>but 60 to 80% of your adult intelligence is hereditary

I haven't heard that before. Where did you?

>> No.2859135 [DELETED] 

Because you're a nigger with unmanageable butthurt, whose mind has just been visited by an idea that he's the coolest in his village! ^_^

>> No.2859142
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2859142

>>2859127
>sociologist
>actual data on hand.

Pic related. It's true that well-being correlates with indexes of human freedom and of economic equality, but it also correlates with intelligence.

>> No.2859144

>>2859136
You think that all humans are equally intelligent at birth?

>> No.2859155

>>2859136

Psych101? I thought this was widely known.

http://www.sparknotes.com/psychology/psych101/intelligence/section3.rhtml

>> No.2859163

>>2859155

Oh, okay then. I need to brush up on my psychology then.

>> No.2859180

Because there is only one race of humans. Race is a social construct.

>> No.2859213

So what are you guys saying? Should we study brains from different races to see who has the biggest? Examine their bodies to find differences?

Test scores and anything dealing with surveys is bullshit. I'd bet that's almost all cultural.

>> No.2859220

>>2859006
Fucking lol'd.

>> No.2859252

>>2859127
>We can estimate the well being of people in countries today
Yeah, I'm not doubting this.

>Similar to how you know this boulder is heavier than this pebble even if you don't know their masses.
It's not similar at all, since I can think of various racist regimes that managed to do fairly well with "only" the suppressed minority suffering, not to mention the fact that notions like racism or tribalism have their roots in evolutionarily advantageous instincts and behavior.

Mind you, I'm not trying to say that the *opposite* is true and that racism is actually a good thing. I merely doubt that, historically, equal rights have been much of a causal factor for a nation's prosperity.

>> No.2859267

>>2859213

If you choose to remain ignorant of basic science then by all means "bet" away.

>Evidence from family studies provides the main supporting evidence from which arguments about the relative roles of genetics and environment are constructed.

>A large number of the study of twins reared apart was undertaken by Thomas Bouchard of the University of Minnesota starting in 1979. He �collected� pairs of separated twins from all over the world and reunited them while testing their personalities and IQs. Other studies at the same time concentrated on comparing the IQs of adopted people with those of their adopted parents and their biological parents or their siblings. Put all these studies together, which include the IQ tests of tens of thousands of individuals, and the table looks like this:

>*Same person tested twice 87%
>*Identical twins reared together 86%
>*Identical twins reared apart 76%
>*Fraternal twins reared together 55%
>*Biological siblings reared together 47% (studies show that reared apart about 24%)
>*Parents and children living together 40%
>*Parents and children living apart 31%
>*Adopted children living together 0%
>*Unrelated people living apart 0%

>Ridley, 1999, p.83 [The number is a percentage correlation
http://wilderdom.com/personality/L4-1IntelligenceNatureVsNurture.html

>> No.2859269

>>2859180
Do you think there are not substantial physical and mental differences between Africans, Asians, and Europeans?

>> No.2859311

I think most of the problem people have with this is that they mistakenly believe that accepting human differences means accepting apartheid and racism. Nothing could be further from the truth, good science makes no proscriptive statements. As a liberal, I would fight to the death to uphold universal suffrage and equality under the law because nobody can help his or her genes, anymore than he can his upbringing. If you believe it would be wrong to disenfranchise the poor, you must also believe it wrong to do so to blacks (or to whites for that matter, since a racist who actually followed his own logic would be living under asian legal dominanance anyway)

>> No.2859313

>>2859252
>I can think of various racist regimes that managed to do fairly well with "only" the suppressed minority suffering

I think you might be adding things up incorrectly. I don't thing the content of the majority outweigh the abject misery of the minority.

>fact that notions like racism or tribalism have their roots in evolutionarily advantageous instincts and behavior.

However true that might be, it's still an appeal to nature. Just because we evolved that way doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

>I merely doubt that, historically, equal rights have been much of a causal factor for a nation's prosperity.

Hmmm, you could be right about this. I'll have to give it some thought.

>> No.2859318

>>2859311
Would you really fight to the death? Who would you fight?

>> No.2859325

>>2859318

I dunno, time-travelling Nazis? Not many anti-liberals here in the Liberal Hegemony.

>> No.2859329

>>2859180
BS

If you're a European you can't donate blood or bone marrow (not sure which one it is) to a Japanese, for example.

Blacks are also more likely to get some diseases than others (sickle cell..) and vice versa.

>> No.2859331

>>2859311

The notion still makes me uncomfortable. Let's say scientists discover and declare something like "blacks are less intelligent". Well then the entire world treats blacks differently. As some have said "we are a product of our expectations". What do you think that would do to them? It would break their heart and make them hate who they are.

It's just a hard thing for me, because while I do believe that science should be totally objective and honest, at the same time I fear what that kind of thing would do to our society.

>> No.2859330 [DELETED] 

>>2859046

>Scientific evidence doesn't fit my view point on the world so the science must be wrong

People like you are the cancer of the world and will destroy it in the coming years when population explodes and resources become scarce.

Enjoy eating bugs and having homeless niggers shit on your floor you fucking faggot.

>> No.2859332

>>2859001
Because extreme lefties will get violent if you do.

>> No.2859339

I don't really get it. There are extremely intelligent people from every race, sort of proving that it depends more on the individual. Even if you work with averages, those are just averages and can be based on a large amount of factors, and can even be coincidental.

>> No.2859345

>>2859269

Honestly yes. Mental differences? What possible mental differences could there be? Physical differences? Different skin color yes, but what else?

>> No.2859353

so if black people are less intelligent than white people...if a white and black person have a baby would the baby be less intelligent than if it had two white parents...?

>> No.2859359

i prefer the people of my race. i don't think we're superior or any nonsense like that, i just prefer them on the whole. am i racist?

>> No.2859360

Is there any actual prove that one race is more intelligent than other?

>> No.2859372

>>2859331

it's not the way of science to avoid investigation based on the fear of possible outcomes to that investigation.

>> No.2859377

>>2859345
Substantial differences in IQ, reaction time, pattern finding, and so on. Europeans are taller, Africans are better at running, Asians have synaptic folds, and so on.

>> No.2859378

While determining difference in intelligence between races is a valid and interesting scientific study, it's not of much practical use [in the kind of world we live in] because you can only find an average, but there will always numerous counterexamples.

And since we're still, as a whole, stupid and close minded, it would create some social damage (people feeling bad about themselves or others etc.).

>> No.2859385

>>2859331

Well it depends. Professional athletes make huge sums, and most of them are black. No-one thinks this is a great injustice. So, so what if the majority of lawyers are Jewish? Or that managers are overwhelmingly white? If economic inequality is reduced, so that skilled manual labor pays as well as skilled mental labor, human differences of all kinds would valued equally. Ofc, this is a matter for politicians and philosophers. It is sciences job to gather the data and analyze it. Is, not ought.

>> No.2859387

But how do you even define race? Most people are mixed in some way...

>> No.2859400

>>2859353

Yes. Mixed ace people have intelligence inbetween the two parental races.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

>> No.2859404

>>2859387
I don't think it's possible in this typical 'white', 'black', 'yellow' sense.

But perhaps you could say 'this person has 20% of those genes and 30% of those others' and so on..

>> No.2859418

I do agree that scientists can study the differences in race, as it's science.

I do, however, think absolutely nothing good can from of it. Study it for the name of science but don't expect anything good. It will only lead to more racism. Way, way more.

>> No.2859420
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2859420

>>2859387

Genetic ancestry

>> No.2859449

>>2859418

The truth hurts.

>> No.2859450

>>2859418

We must never allow fear of the consequences to hinder free inquiry. Once you agree to impose limits on what can be thought, you passed out of the realm of scientific thought altogether. It is ALWAYS better to know than not to know. What society does with that knowledge is up to us all, as a society. Getting the facts straight is up to science.

>> No.2859461

>>2859450

Should we start counting the grains of sand on the beach? Not all truth is useful.

>> No.2859467

IQ exists, is measurable, and correlates extremely closely with occupational and educational achievement. It is also at least 50% hereditary.

>> No.2859520

>>2859313
>However true that might be, it's still an appeal to nature.
How so? I wasn't drawing any conclusions from the fact that the psychology behind racism has had evolutionary advantages. I mentioned it in an attempt to explain to you why your analogy didn't work. A boulder is unlikely to be lighter than a pebble under any conditions, whereas racism and similar notions certainly have been advantageous in our past, making things not quite as obvious as you presented them.

>Just because we evolved that way doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Hence:
>Mind you, I'm not trying to say that the *opposite* is true and that racism is actually a good thing.

>> No.2859527

>>2859461
I would appreciate an exact number

>> No.2859544

>>2859450

Like I said, I agree people should study and think whatever they want. Pursuit of knowledge should have no limits. But I do think it will do absolutely no good for society. I can not see a single positive thing that could arise from this type of study. It will lead to much more separation between the races. Certain races would be denied things because of their expectations.

>> No.2859545

>>2859461
You're equating the importance of research in human biology with the counting of grains of sand? I think it's time for you to stop with the analogies.

>> No.2859552

So, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but just to get this straight: most of /sci/ believes that there are mental differences between the races, and difference in intelligence?

>> No.2859557

>>2859461

Who's to say what's useful and what isn't? Who knew how vital atomic research would end up being, back in the 19th century? A scientific study of race could offer all kinds of useful things, such as new cures for genetic illnesses, and new teaching and learning methods. The only way to know, is to start asking questions.

>> No.2859559

I think science shouldn't do anything that has the potential to offend people.

>> No.2859563

IQ is hereditary...but what does that have to do with race?

>> No.2859567

How should we study the races? Like, literally, what should we do to determine physical and mental differences? To me things like surveys aren't substantial enough.

>> No.2859570

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

scientific inquery has been conducted into this
just because the data doesn't go along with your morality, doens't mean the data is false
in short morality has no place in interpreting scientific results

>> No.2859572

>>2859559
People shouldn't get offended so easily. This is also what we need to work on.

>> No.2859576

>>2859544
>Certain races would be denied things because of their expectations.

Only if we, as a society, allow that to happen. I have a greater confidence in my fellow man than to believe that we ever would. But in any event, its not as though racists need science to make their case, the Bible has plenty of fuel without misunderstood quotations from "the Bell Curve"

>> No.2859583
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2859583

>>2859557
>Who's to say what's useful and what isn't?
Usefulness is always self-evidently, objectively, axiomatically obvious.

>> No.2859590

its because the basis theory of human nature (at least after the 2nd WW) is: All People are equal

>> No.2859600

>>2859583
>[citation needed]

Seems obviously wrong intuitively.

>> No.2859609

Is there any actual evidence right now that black people are less intelligent than white people? Evidence that doesnt just go by average test scores and is accepted by scientists around the world?

>> No.2859612

>>2859609
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

>> No.2859615

As a black man, it does somewhat scare me. Let's say they DO determine that blacks are less intelligent. What does that mean for us?

>> No.2859632

>>2859615

They already have.

It's not like all blacks are less intelligent than all whites. It just goes by averages. On average blacks score lower on IQ tests. While asians score higher than whites.

>> No.2859637

It is important to remember, as someone else in this thread mentioned, that you can't just divide between "blacks" and "whites" or other obvious outwards characteristics, because, as an example, there are greater genetic differences between different African peoples than between African and European peoples.

>> No.2859643

>>2859615
Well, if you're smart enough you'll just shrug it off.

^^

>> No.2859646

>>2859615

It shouldn't automatically mean anything. For one thing, these are statistical differences: There are of course highly intelligent blacks, merely fewer per 1000 than other races. For another, our laws are already predicated on a color-blind basis, and liberals will simply never allow that to change. As to socially... well, perhaps an honest inquiry into human nature will lead to a greater appreciation of group differences?

>> No.2859659

whoever denies that racial differences exist is ignorant...
Isn't it well known that black ppl. have huge dicks in average? Well... clearly this is an advantage of black ppl. Also they are very successful in sports.
But one must also realize that they fail when it comes to cognition.
Ignorant ppl: 0
intelligent ppl: 1

>> No.2859675

implying race and ability to learn have anything to do with each other as if retards and assholes dont come in all colors

>> No.2859677

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeU_5YmS_9E&html5=True

>> No.2859682

>>2859659
blacks in america are stronger than the norm because they were breed during slavery to work harder that has nothing to do with being of african decent you can explain the intelligence deficit similarly

>> No.2859685

>>2859637
Basically, what would make most sence to study is the genetic heritage of people. You can't tell someones genetic heritage with any accuracy just by looking at them though, so this would not likely increase racism. Also there aren't sharp boundaries between different peoples based on genetic heritage, because different peoples move around and mix with each other all the time. It has always been that way and is even more so now that we have efficient methods of transportation readily available.

>> No.2859686

>>2859659

People who write "ppl": Disqualified.

>> No.2859690

>>2859686
People who are "dumbfucks": Disqualified.

>> No.2859692

>>2859685
*would make the most sense

>> No.2859696

While there are differences between the races, I still feel it's better to judge everyone on an individual basis. Like assuming that a black person is less intelligent before even getting to know him, is pretty ignorant.

>> No.2859697

>>2859690

What a shitty comeback.

>> No.2859703

>>2859697
ty, sir

>> No.2859710

>>2859697
he's obviously just trolling

>> No.2859724

>>2859685
implying that genetics carry more weight on a person's intelligence and behavior than their environment. If Einstein lived in a closet until he was 20....

>> No.2859770

>>2859001

Exactly OP!

If we can treat dogs like dogs, then why can't we treat humans like dogs?

You are a fucking retard. GTFO.

>> No.2859790
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2859790

HAI GUISH WHATSH GOYIN ON IN DISH SHREAD?

>> No.2859805

>>2859006
in other words this thread is shit

>> No.2859869

>>2859770

Hey man! Thanks for completely misconstruing the point of my post of my post and overreacting like a condescending faggot!

>> No.2861250

>>2859869
bullshit, you knew exactly what you were doing when you came up with this shit thread, which wasn't hard because you're likely one of the same faggots that posts this shit like every other day, because this has been up in one form of the other since I've been coming to /sci/. He's right on target on your bullshit.