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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2813033 No.2813033 [Reply] [Original]

so what is YOUR stance on the death sentence?
A good way to deal with criminals, or a bad one?

>> No.2813036

>so what is YOUR stance on the death sentence?
>A good way to deal with criminals, or a bad one?

It's a good way to deal with blatantly off topic trolls like OP.

>> No.2813049
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2813049

Destruction of one's consciousness should never be decided by a group of other people of any size.

>> No.2813050

>>2812949
I can't see the diiference between what you guys are saying & this

>> No.2813057

It's a double-edge blade. On one hand it helps as a scare tactic, works wonder to keep people from committing serious crimes (sort of) and will avoid people being kept in a 4x4 for the rest of their life on state's bills.

On the other hand is an easily exploitable way for dictators and governments to shut someone up permanently and it's overall considered a barbaric method of execution in the boundiaries of the law.

It's hard to tell if the pros can balance out the cons.

>> No.2813061

>>2813057
has there ever been any evidence that shows that it actually works as a scare tactic, though?

>> No.2813063

>>2813033
>so what is YOUR stance on the death sentence?

>>2813057
>considered a barbaric method of execution

lolwut

>> No.2813069

>>2813063
yeah, big brainfart.

It's an homicide in the boundiaries of law. Nothing more, nothing less.

>> No.2813077

>>2813057
>works wonder to keep people from committing serious crimes
Any data on that? From what I remember, the rate of "serious crimes" (murder, etc.) is pretty high in the US compared to countries without the death penalty.

>> No.2813080

>>2812949

exactly

>> No.2813086

>>2813077
Ugg, this is the same fallacy committed by those who try to conclude that blacks are stupider than non-blacks, or that access to guns has a high causation relationship with gun crime.

It's all much more socio-economic. Note that I said socio, which means culture, and economic, which means standard of living.

>> No.2813104

>>2813086
>Not the one you're replying to
I could find a country with worst socio-economic status and less violent crime per 1000p than the US.

>> No.2813106

>>2813104
>I could find a country with worst socio-economic status and less violent crime per 1000p than the US.

I think that you mean "worse".

Also, I highly doubt it.

>> No.2813117

Inhumane, ineffective and unjust. It's a logical fallacy to think that two wrongs make one right.

Seriously, I can't think of any legit argument for the death penalty. The US needs to get their shit together and abolish it lest they be viewed as a state on par with China or Iran when it comes to human rights.

>> No.2813119

>>2813086
but the point is, if it works as a scare tactic. why doesn't it work as a scare tactic?

>> No.2813124

>>2813086
>Ugg, this is the same fallacy committed
Huh? That wasn't a fallacy at all. I didn't present the argument that the death penalty is somehow to causally linked to high crime rates, but that, as far as I know, the available data does not suggest the death penalty to "work wonders" as a scare tactic.

>> No.2813128

>>2813124
*somehow causally linked

>> No.2813129

I agree with the death penalty, because it saves taxpayers from having to house, feed and clothe a piece of scum for years while at the same time disposing of said human scum.

>> No.2813131

It costs too much compared to life in prison.

>> No.2813132

>>2813117
A devil's advocate position of the other side:

Putting someone in jail for the rest of their life is a rather extreme form of removal of their civil rights, their rights to life, happiness, and so on. Why is killing so much worse? If you're going to throw them in jail for life without the possibility of parole, why not save everyone the trouble and kill them, especially if it's cheaper.

In an ideal unreal world where we don't have to pay money to keep people in prisons, sure, whatever, just keep them in prison for the rest of their life. Unfortunately we live in the real world where compromises must be made, and where keeping a serial killer alive imposes a tangible harm on me in the form of taxes, and that harm is entirely unjustified to keep some unexcusably irredeemably evil asshat alive.

>> No.2813134

>>2813128
>>2813124
Acceptable.

>> No.2813136

>>2813129
I hope you get wrongfully sentenced to death.

>> No.2813138

>>2813106
Most definitely, scientist

I think society needs to change. we don't need these institutions given an actual economy not anti economy

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/get-involved/what-you-can-do

>> No.2813140

>>2813132
life in prison at least grants them the ability to be let free if it turns out they weren't guilty

once we figure out how to perform necromancy, I see no problem in what you said, though.

>> No.2813146

>>2813140
As I said, if some dude is actually really guilty, I see it as an unnecessary harm on society to pay to keep the guy alive.

Of course, in practice it may not be cheaper to execute, so meh. I'm not the most versed on the topic.

>> No.2813156
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2813156

>>2812949
YESSS ! ! !

>> No.2813157

Court reporter reporting in.
No death penalty in my country, but have to admit some days I wish we did.

>> No.2813160

>>2813132
Yes, imprisonment is a violation of human rights, but surely you must agree that it is much less of an infringement than actual execution? Most importantly, a prison sentence can be changed and the prisoner given his freedom back if it turns out that he was innocent. He would have lost all those years, but had he been executed there would be no way of taking the sentence back. Also, consider the jury that sentenced an innocent person to death - would not they feel like they murdered an innocent person?

Imprisonment for life in a concrete bunker is not necissarily the alternative to death penalty. One has to ask oneself why we punish criminals. It SHOULD be in order to make sure that the person never commits a crime again and therefore science has a big part to play in the treatment of criminals. Scientific investigation must be the basis on which the treatment of criminals is decided, not a public thirst for vengeance. If we are so unlucky that we still have criminals that are deemed 'uncurable' - well then lock them up for life but don't execute them. I think that prison costs are a very small price to pay for keeping our humanity.

>> No.2813166

>>2813160
I largely agree. I'm not gung ho for the death penalty, but neither am I entirely averse to it. I'm just noting that I think there are legitimate arguments to be made in favor of it. I am largely undecided except for the oddball serial killers with over and above the usual standard of evidence of guilt.

>> No.2813194

I'd rather die than rot away in some shitty jail, it'd save a lot of money too.
Then again... These people should live with what they've done. Have them rot away, fuck it.

>> No.2813214

so what kind of crime is punishable by death?

murder?

if you execute a murderer, how are you different from him? how could you punish a murderer by murdering him? thats just hypocrisy.

>> No.2813217

>>2813214
So we're no longer able to punish kidnappers with jail? Sorry, your argument is broken. Please try again.

>> No.2813218

I am against death penalty for ordinary criminals. Dictators and terrorist leaders and other symbols should be killed.

>> No.2813248

>>2813217
>>2813217
>>2813217

how is my argument broken. you seem to think that jailing people is axiomatically justifiable.

>> No.2813251

>>2813214
Drug trafficking, Chinese dudes have executed many mules for it.

>> No.2813255

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4beUC3-ckw
I thought this was pretty interesting

feels good to be a norfag

>> No.2813264

>>2813033

Pro death sentence:
1. Criminals don't waste the tax payers money.

Con death sentence:
1. Death is the easy way out.
2. Corrupt officials might use it to target innocent victims.

My proposal would be forced labor for life so criminals can repay some of the damage they committed.

>> No.2813266

>>2813061

I imagine if you are in the process of carrying out a crime worthy of the death penalty (ie killing someone, not sure what else is...) you aren't thinking too much about the consequences.

>Prospective k1ller thinks to himself: I was going to carry out this murder but I will be executed as opposed to spending the rest of my life in prison so I had better not.

>> No.2813271

>>2813264

I wouldn't like to speculate but the time spent on executing people does not appear cheap.

They usually spend a long time on death row with various appeals.

>> No.2813273
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2813273

i think it is a great way to rid criminals.
But with that said, none of this lethal injection shit. That shit needs to be unpleasant and they should experience pain they couldn't even imagine before death.
What we are doing is "putting criminals to sleep" and fuck that shit. My dog was put down and I loved that bitch. Criminals shouldn't go out the same way.

>> No.2813277

>>2813271

That is true. I forgot about it. Also the execution itself costs a lot of money. I don't know how that would compare to a ~30 year old spending the rest of his life in prison.

>> No.2813278

>>2813033
gtf >>>/b/ ! !

>> No.2813289

>>2813086
The fact that there are indeed more cases of violent crimes somewhere with death penalties it's probably connected to a whole lot of variables that we might or might not take in consideration, Standard of life, economic pressure, corruption rate, organized crime's presence on the territory, efficency of the police, penitentiary and juridical systems, and last but not least the cultural background.

On paper it IS ascare tactic, its effectivenes is amplified or dampened by all those factors (especially the effectivenes of the juridical system).

>> No.2813296

>kill someone
>realize that if caught, you'll get the death penalty
>welp, might as well do more random shit, I'm gonna get killed anyway

>> No.2813319

it does not work as a deterrent in any way. also what if an innocent person is sentanced for a crime they didnt commit? that said it should be used in special cases for people who simply do not deserve life or money to keep them in jail

>> No.2813323

>it depends on the culture

>> No.2813331

>>2813248
Your argument is:

"It is not morally allowed to punish criminals who do crime X illegally with punishment of X."

Your specification incarnation was:
>It is not morally allowed to punish criminals who kill people illegally with the punishment of killing them.

Now, if we take this argument, and substitute the punishment like the following, we get an absurdity:
>It is not morally allowed to punish criminals who kidnap others and keep them in their basement for years with the punishment of putting the criminal into a jail for years.

See the similarity? Your assertion that we cannot do the same things as criminals, that its the act with no regards to the justification, is asinine.

It's like saying cops can't shoot in self defense or shoot to save innocent lives because criminals also shoot people.

Are you really this thick?

>> No.2813336

Ofcourse we should have it.
Do you realise how incredibly expensive it is to keep someone in jail for the rest of their natural life?
Costs the government huge amounts

>> No.2813341

>>2813336

Loving this statement without evidence.

>> No.2813343

>>2813331
>specific* incarnation
Fixed. Ugg, can't type.

>> No.2813344

:#3
>>2813332

>> No.2813349

I'm all for the death penalty but only for these crimes:

Murder
Rape
Stealing
Fraud
Copyright Infringement
Taking Drugs

These all have negative effect on society so wipe them out I say!

>> No.2813359

Life in prison is a worse punishment than death.
It's much less "humane" than just killing them.
How would you like to be locked in a small cell for the rest of your life with nothing to do and no purpose to live?

>> No.2813363

I'm generally against it (I believe rehabilitation is always a potential option) but if someone is genuinely going to be in prison for the rest of their life they may as well be executed. Why waste resources on someone who will never contribute to society in any way?

>> No.2813369

Those evil bastards deserve to die for the crimes they have done.

No mercy for ones who take the lives of the innocent.

deal with it, sociopaths

>> No.2813373

>>2813369
...said the sociopath himself.

>> No.2813375

>>2813349

>taking drugs

7.5/10

>> No.2813376

>>2813373
I have no feelings for evil people.

but then i really don't have feelings for anyone, but i still have morals

>> No.2813385

>>2813331

your argument is

a is like b
since b (jailing) is acceptable (i presume because it is widespread you assumed it to be morally acceptable)
therefore a is acceptable

your premise: jailing is acceptable is false
jailing is a terrible crime commited in the prevention of other terrible crimes. you are expending the jailees freedom, which he rightly deserves, in order to secure the public's security and freedom

if there exists a possible way to secure the public without having to take away the jailee's freedom, surely that option is superior to putting people in jails.

the same cannot be said for murder. since murder is pretty much the worst crime, you cannot expend a person's life to secure the public safety when an alternative exists (in this instance lifetime behind bars)

>> No.2813387
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2813387

>>2813349

>mfw everyone is dead from committing petty theft or smoking weed.

>> No.2813394

>>2813387
remember kids
drugs will kill you, and if it doesn't, the government will.

JUSTICE FOR ALL

>> No.2813395

>>2813385
And now you're making a different argument, a much more reasonable argument, that isn't "We can't do the same things as criminals otherwise we're no better than them!"

>> No.2813401

this is, ofc, with the assumption that laws and the judicial system exist to protect the public and not to take revenge upon the criminals. i presume you will give me this, since the idea that criminal justice is institutionalised vendetta is obv outrageous

>> No.2813404

chemically castrate all long term prisoners and then send them to australia.
problem solved

>> No.2813422

fucking hell sci, why cant you into logic? so far i havent seen any good argument in this thread going one way or the other. fuck i thought i was un /b/

>> No.2813427

Never seek an infinite unyielding hell for your enemies. For it may be sought by them for you.

>> No.2813451
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2813451

I am against the death penalty because the state should not have the power to execute its own citizens, additionally there have been people who were executed and then later exonerated, who, had they simply been serving a life term would have been released instead.

Even in if guilt is truly known, the State should not be using crimes (even murder) as excuses to murder its own citizens since this is contrary to the purpose of a State, and creates the potential for the assassination of dissidents via the criminal justice system (framing someone).

>> No.2813484

>>2813451

if you come inside it, pay for the abortion

>> No.2813499

A good way to deal with criminals who are without a doubt quilty.

>> No.2813521

>>2813499
Every criminal, who is guilty, is guilty without a doubt. That's the definition.

Justice isn't always right. Innocent people go to jail, guilty people run free. Death sentence is quite useless in the US, it does work in fascist countries though..

>> No.2813530

An eye for an eye, bitches.

>> No.2813542

The death penalty CAN reduce crime rates, but only if it is imposed for virtually every crime. Draco's law code was resented for its severity, but everyone agreed it had practically eliminted crime. But then, who today would want to live under such a regime?

Ultimately, I oppose it because I recognize that it is impossible to be certain of guilt. Sooner free 10 guilty men then execute one innocent, I guess. Though by 'let free', I mean of course 'life without possibility of parole'.

>> No.2813557

It's cheaper to kill them, then keep them comfortable for the rest of their useless lives, so stop wasting my tax dollars and just kill em.

>> No.2813561

Economic arguments for death penalty are bullshit. Prisoners sentenced to death make up just a very small part of all prisoners, so savings are negligible, if any. Also, in such an important life or death decision, saving a few bucks is simply not enough as an argument, even if it would save money.

>> No.2813575
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2813575

>Implying the cost of death penalty is more than life in prison

http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/deathpenalty.htm
>What many Americans do not realize is that the death penalty is more costly than incarcerating an inmate for life. A murder trial takes much longer when the death penalty is being pursued. The taxpayer is paying the salaries of the judges, prosecutors, public defenders, court officials, and the cost of briefs. "A 1982 study showed that if the death penalty were reintroduced in the state of New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more then double the cost of a life term in prison" (Bright, 1996). The Duke University study estimated that a death penalty trial takes about four times longer than a non-capital murder trial (Bright, 1996). And, of course, not every death penalty trial results in a death sentence. Based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors found that less than a third of capital trials resulted in a death sentence.

>> No.2813577

>>2813561
>so savings are negligible
if you feel that way then please, go ahead and pay for them out of your own wallet

>> No.2813581

>death sentence?
Dumbest thing there ever was. Because, it doesn't fucking help in any way.

The prison system is also broken, it's a storage for unwanted people that is expensive as fuck.
Why are people in prison? Because of using drugs, which is a medical problem. Because of economic reason, which is a social problem. And because of doing stupid shit like killing or hurting people for no particular reason, which is a criminal reason, except for when done for economic reasons.

If economic stability was abundant and the social system was run by carebears, and drug users could get their daily dose for a few pennies from a pharmacy with a prescription the prison population would be 1% of what it currently is.

But of course, where's the profit in that?

>> No.2813586

>>2813581
You're an idiot.
Nobody is put to death for simply taking drugs.

>> No.2813590

>>2813581
This isn't a thread about drug laws, shit for brains.
Go smoke a cone and find somewhere else to troll

>> No.2813595

against it, people can and do change. furthermore id rather die than go to prison for the rest of my life so if anything it is less of a punishment. also many wrong cases of people being sentanced to death only to later find out they were innocent. also it isn't a deterrant as sometimes crimes are committed in a sudden rage, no premediation and so the deterrant does nothing.

>> No.2813606
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2813606

>>2813581
How about a supplementary system of limited slavery for non-violent offenders. Sort of like forcing them to work a shit job to barely maintain their lives, with less respect and dignity.

>> No.2813610

>>2813606
>work a shit job to barely maintain their lives
>less respect and dignity.
How is that any different from a typical drug addicts life?

>> No.2813612

I'm posting some legal philosophy and blowing your mind.

Blackstone: "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

It is unacceptable that a single innocent person be put to death. Ergo, even having a death penalty creates the possibility of that occurring.

Also, unalienable right to life, etc.

classical liberal master race here, come at me bros

>> No.2813619

When talking about the death penalty in America it is important to realize a few things that have been shown to be true:

-The death penalty costs more than life in prison. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty))

-It has been shown to fail as a deterrent of crime. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state))

>> No.2813624

>>2813612
People like you are pathetic.
If somebody murdered your sister you would probably want to suck his cock

>> No.2813625
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2813625

Philosophical question...

If we are simply going to lock a person away for the rest of their life, what benefits do we get from keeping them alive in prison? Don't we have to feed and guard and essentially take care of life sentence prisoners?

In my opinion, we should give prisoners sentenced to life 5 years in prison and then kill them. They will be happier because they won't have to live in prison the rest of their lives and the state will be happy because they won't have to pay for the prisoners. Also, it would severely deter people from doing things that would put them in jail for life.

>> No.2813627

>>2813625

The primary benefit is if new evidence comes to light exonerating them. Sure prison is expensive, but what price hanging the wrong person?

>> No.2813628

>>2813624
and you'd go and murder someone who had nothing to do with it.

nice.

>> No.2813630

>>2813628

Not that fag, but while I believe in the rule of law, there is a place for vigilante justice. Seeing my kids murderer go free would certainly be one of them.

>> No.2813631

>>2813628
Nope. I'd murder the person who did do it.

>> No.2813633
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2813633

>>2813627

ok well we can have this rule that if the person look like this (in the pic) we can kill them.

lets say if there's a 90%+ chance that they did it, they can be executed for it.

>> No.2813638

>>2813630
But what if he's innocent!!
People don't deserve punishment because they might be innocent!
People charged with murder should just be given a slap on the wrist and be put under police watch. It's immoral to take someone's freedom or life

>> No.2813642

>>2813633
People who look like that should be executed even if they're known to be innocent.
Fucking neonazi scumbags

>> No.2813649

>>2813642

Check the filename.

>> No.2813654

I'm okay with death, not with sentences.

Criminals are a category made up for the needs of the bourgeois state. It should be dissolved along with it.
The problem would then be how to deal with the causes for violent, destructive behaviors. Which have the advantage of offering the possibility of actual solutions, instead of the necessary limited forms of control/management that the "dealing with criminals" point of view offer.

>> No.2813655

I think that only repeat offenders such as murders should be executed. However the problem with this is the prison system. As it is we'd be killing people and its not an easy decision. If we had a working rehibilitation program which actually gave these crimes a high success rate to turn their lives around and they still repeatedly offended then we could have a strong basis to consider it. We're not there however.

>> No.2813659

>>2813631
Or not.

>> No.2813660

>>2813638
>People charged with murder should just be given a slap on the wrist
>implying it isn't immoral to push your anti-murder opinions down people's throat

>> No.2813665

>>2813660
FUCK, you're right! They should be applauded for their free thinking ways

>> No.2813667

>>2813633

Well, how do you know what % a given person is? Charles Mason still denies the crimes he was imprisoned for.

>>2813638

That would be tragic. I like to think I'd only do it if I were certain, like if he got off on a technically or something. But who knows. Hopefully, never me.

>> No.2813674

>>2813654
> yfw when it was recently reported a fifth of russians are involved in criminal activities
> criminal activities not involving trafficking, prostitution or piracy

>> No.2813685
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2813685

>>2813674
mfw

>> No.2813686

>>2813674
Russia is one fucked up country.
I've still got those videos of russian guys murdering a hobo, and some russian teens setting a kitten on fire and laughing at it as it burned in agony scarred in to my mind.

>> No.2813741
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2813741

"Torturing and humiliating criminals in public will work." Albert Einstein

>> No.2813745

I want people to die. I don't want my tax money used to house criminals.

>> No.2813747

sage'd

>> No.2813762

>>2813745

Keeping an inmate on Death Row is more expensive than a life sentence.

>> No.2813766

>>2813762
Only because of lawyers. Kill the lawyers and that'll change too.

>> No.2813771

>Killing isn't wrong
>The question is whether killing convicted criminals increases the wellbeing of sentient creatures.
>It doesn’t deter, decrease crime, or cost less
>Keeping people on death row is effectively torture

So I'm against it.

>> No.2813774

>>2813762
But eventually they die, right? Cool. As long as they die quick.

>> No.2813776

>>2813771
Bullshit. If it were torture, you wouldn't have endless appeals to not get the death penalty. People want to live, and these people prefer a life in prison over death.

>> No.2813781

I don't care. I guess I'm against it in the rare occasion that I'm wrongly convicted and sentenced to death.

>> No.2813799

Weighing advantages against disadvantages, there's no reason to execute in this legal system. The only possible advantage is that people might commit fewer crimes if the possibility of execution was present, but I don't think so.

However, I think once someone commits first degree murder and that is proven beyond reasonable doubt, they no longer have many rights. What happens to them should be whatever provides most benefit to society, whether that's a life of labor or termination or being a medical guinea pig for TV privileges.

>> No.2813823

>21 max sentence in Norway
>we don't have much crime, except some immgrant stabbing some guy once a month
feels good, man.

I don't know how we do it, but I have a feeling it's got to do with us treating our prisoners like humans, not rats.

>> No.2813825

I personally dont care if it deters crime or not. I say some people dont deserve to live and its is our obligation as a society to determine who those people are and to eradicate them for the betterment of the society as a whole. No, i dont want a child rapist murder to "find god" and get released. I want him killed. Quickly and efficiently

>> No.2813840

>>2813823
>we don't have much crime, except some immgrant stabbing some guy once a month
>I don't know how we do it, but I have a feeling it's got to do with us treating our prisoners like humans, not rats.

bullshit, it has nothing to do with how you treat prisoners, and everything to do with you have no niggers. by your own admission, immigrants are responsible for your crime. if niggers were removed from america, our crime rates would look just like yours.

>> No.2813843

>>2813799
I agree with this. I also think it's functionally retarded that we don't force labor on our prisoners anymore. We can't afford to manufacture shit in America anymore, so we have to buy all our cheap crap from China. We have the largest prison population in the world; let's put them to work doing what Chinamen do every day.

>> No.2813847

>>2813776
I meant the slow torture of sitting in a cell for 10+ years knowing you're going to die. People would obviosuly prefer life to that, since life often doesn't mean life.

>> No.2813848

>>2813049
in a rational world, no, but once in a while someone so irrational comes along that you just have to whack him

>> No.2813857

>>2813823
>norway doesn't have many niggers
hooo boy are you wrong as shit

>> No.2813870
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2813870

>>2813857
He really isn't. Unless you live in a terrible part of Oslo.

>> No.2813878

>>2813857
do you have niggers, or black people? black people are sorta okay.

>> No.2813895

>>2813878
mostly black people
niggers are much fewer, from my experience anyway

>> No.2813896

>>2813840
>implying the US are not responsible for niggers

>> No.2813900

>>2813843
Forced labor isn't very efficient.